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'Did Jesus Exist?' A Historian Makes His Case


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#31    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:33 AM

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 11 April 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

Thank you for this reference.  After that reference there is no other document saying Jesus existed officially. And so in saying that Jesus as a real living person is simply conjecture.
as an aside I had run across the letter mentioned while looking up another outright lie. I was researching Jesus in his misssing years and started down a trail of Jesus in Tibet and a supposed book which Jesus signed when he entered the monastery .... it turned out to be a red Herring and the whole missing years a snipe hunt. But that's for another topic.

I'd not heard that story before. I have heard of him in Egypt in his early life and I have heard of him traveling to India after another was crucified in his place.
I believe that was from the Second Treatise of Great Seth, one of the Nag Hammadi Scrolls (Dead Sea Scrolls)
It reads as follows;

“I did not succumb to them as they had planned… And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them… For my death which they think happened [happened] to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death… It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. It was another upon whom they placed the crown of thorns… And I was laughing at their ignorance.”



The Koran seems toagree with the above;

And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty calumny, and for their saying, ‘We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God’…yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them.

Just something interesting I thought I would share.

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#32    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:47 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 11 April 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

I'd not heard that story before. I have heard of him in Egypt in his early life and I have heard of him traveling to India after another was crucified in his place.
I believe that was from the Second Treatise of Great Seth, one of the Nag Hammadi Scrolls (Dead Sea Scrolls)
It reads as follows;

“I did not succumb to them as they had planned… And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them… For my death which they think happened [happened] to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death… It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. It was another upon whom they placed the crown of thorns… And I was laughing at their ignorance.”



The Koran seems toagree with the above;

And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty calumny, and for their saying, ‘We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God’…yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them.

Just something interesting I thought I would share.
Interesting...
I believe the reference was to a supposed holy man named issa  who was supposed to be Jesus.
Ill search and find what I'm referring to.

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#33    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:50 AM

Ahh here's a decent reference to the hoax.
http://home.swipnet....kwww/notov.html

"Though I stand in opposition to you, I am not opposed to you. Night and Day stand in opposition to each other, but they are not opposed to each other -they are merely two halves of the same coin."

#34    shadowsot

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:17 AM

I dunno, there doesn't seem to be any real reason to assume much more than someone inspired the legend of Christ, which later became this major myth.

As for why there's more concern over Jesus than say Socrates... if we had no other writings affirming the existence of Socrates, then fine (Homer's existence is readily debated, after all, as to who he or they were).
The difference here is, no one to my knowledge has killed in the name of Socrates, or said that if you reject Socrates, they will bend in unending fire forever and and ever.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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#35    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:28 AM

View PostShadowSot, on 11 April 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

I dunno, there doesn't seem to be any real reason to assume much more than someone inspired the legend of Christ, which later became this major myth.

As for why there's more concern over Jesus than say Socrates... if we had no other writings affirming the existence of Socrates, then fine (Homer's existence is readily debated, after all, as to who he or they were).
The difference here is, no one to my knowledge has killed in the name of Socrates, or said that if you reject Socrates, they will bend in unending fire forever and and ever.
True though Scientology is going this direction with their beliefs. And if there is a real man sealed inside a valcano then I give up... LOL

"Though I stand in opposition to you, I am not opposed to you. Night and Day stand in opposition to each other, but they are not opposed to each other -they are merely two halves of the same coin."

#36    1Ophelia

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:42 AM

Their is no evidence what so ever to suggest that their was a man with the name of Jesus, beholding of some many incredible and helaing supernatural powers ever exsisted, FULL STOP.

It's like believing in Father Christmas, they both have a book about them, they both present people with gifts (aparently), they both have unexplainable powers and they both dont exsist.


#37    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 06:47 AM

View Post1Ophelia, on 11 April 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

Their is no evidence what so ever to suggest that their was a man with the name of Jesus, beholding of some many incredible and helaing supernatural powers ever exsisted, FULL STOP.

It's like believing in Father Christmas, they both have a book about them, they both present people with gifts (aparently), they both have unexplainable powers and they both dont exsist.
I shouldn't do this but St Nick may have been a real person. Uggh so much mud.

"Though I stand in opposition to you, I am not opposed to you. Night and Day stand in opposition to each other, but they are not opposed to each other -they are merely two halves of the same coin."

#38    1Ophelia

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:01 AM

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 11 April 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

I shouldn't do this but St Nick may have been a real person. Uggh so much mud.

Ha. I'm sure St Nick wasn't found flying in the mid air with his magic reindeers pulling his sledge along while he constantly repeated Ho..Ho...Ho. Should I mention while wearing his best shinny red outfit ;). Haha.

Oh the embarassment. My first post ever on Unexplained-Mysteries and I made so many spelling errors.


#39    eight bits

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:06 AM

Welcome aboard, Ophelia.

We do have one other distinction. There is a mountain of evidence that Santa Claus does not exist, and that he is consciously and continually refabricated by adults for the entertainment of children. We can even watch the lore get built, with new elements, like Rudolph, being added as recently as 1939. For Jesus, there is hardly any evidence either way, and the lore is static.

It is interesting that the children's character is "associated" with an historical person, a Catholic-Orthodox bishop. So far as I know, however, there is no lore that links any biographical details of Nicholas' life with the children's character. At least in America, a good deal of the point of "Santa Claus" stories appears to be to distance him from anyone resembling a Catholic priest.

The magical aspects of Santa Claus are unrealistic for any time or place. There are no flying reindeer, and no adult anywhere has ever believed in such things. Even apart from magic, realism is avoided. It isn't just Santa Claus who doesn't operate an industrial complex at the North Pole, nobody does.

In contrast, Jesus isn't depicted as doing anything unique according to the beliefs of his reputed time and place. In realistic matters, he is yet another learned rabble rouser. In magical practices, his disciples are reported as doing the same things, as is disciple-wannabe Simon of Samaria. As a literary figure, Jesus is an instance of the well-worn Jewish character type now called a tzadik, a righteous person who works wonders based on his religious faith in YHWH.

So, the goyim thought a tzadik was God himself? How incredible is that? According to the same sources, some Gentiles mistook Paul for a Roman god. That story is plausible enough, and Paul is well-attested (somebody wrote Galatians).

The difficulty in assessing the Jesus story historically is that nothing historical depends on his being real, and nothing historical depends on his being fabricated. In contrast, a real Santa Claus would imply revolutionary developments in geography, biology and operations research.

So long as some disciples of John the Baptist went to Jerusalem (as the Fourth Gospel says they did), and those disciples told Jesus stories (as Luke says in Acts), then everything that happened afterwards turns on what non-witnesses believed about the stories. That is, everything depends on what the same people who believed that Paul was a Roman god believed about a man Paul saw only in  visions.

That's about as close to a coin-toss as it gets, I think.

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#40    1Ophelia

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:37 AM

Exactly Right, eight bites.

considering everything that needed to be said has been said, I will now move onto the next thread =).

Though I would just like to add. A few weeks back I came a cross this youtube video called 'Athiest Experience' which is very a educational video which brings to light good points about Christians, christianity or anyone who believes in God. Basically it's about Christrians ringing up the athiests to argue about wether or not Jesus/God and etc is real or fake.

I'll give you a link. Worth watching.


#41    1Ophelia

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:39 AM

View Post1Ophelia, on 11 April 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Exactly Right, eight bites.

considering everything that needed to be said has been said, I will now move onto the next thread =).

Though I would just like to add. A few weeks back I came a cross this youtube video called 'Athiest Experience' which is very a educational video which brings to light good points about Christians, christianity or anyone who believes in God. Basically it's about Christrians ringing up the athiests to argue about wether or not Jesus/God and etc is real or fake.

I'll give you a link. Worth watching.


Ooops another hic-cup on my grammar =/ *Is a very educational* Link:


#42    Paranoid Android

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:01 PM

View Post1Ophelia, on 11 April 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Exactly Right, eight bites.

considering everything that needed to be said has been said, I will now move onto the next thread =).

Though I would just like to add. A few weeks back I came a cross this youtube video called 'Athiest Experience' which is very a educational video which brings to light good points about Christians, christianity or anyone who believes in God. Basically it's about Christrians ringing up the athiests to argue about wether or not Jesus/God and etc is real or fake.

I'll give you a link. Worth watching.
I listened to the video, and I think it had plenty of good points about Atheists, but the Christian who rang up was so inarticulate that I learned virtually nothing him or his beliefs.  I learned about the atheist stance on Christianity, but Christianity itself, and Christians themselves, I did not learn anything except that some people can't express themselves very well.

That said, welcome to the forums, Ophelia, I hope you enjoy your stay here :tu:

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Edited by Paranoid Android, 11 April 2012 - 01:02 PM.

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#43    socrates.junior

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:16 PM

View PostShadowSot, on 11 April 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

I dunno, there doesn't seem to be any real reason to assume much more than someone inspired the legend of Christ, which later became this major myth.

As for why there's more concern over Jesus than say Socrates... if we had no other writings affirming the existence of Socrates, then fine (Homer's existence is readily debated, after all, as to who he or they were).
The difference here is, no one to my knowledge has killed in the name of Socrates, or said that if you reject Socrates, they will bend in unending fire forever and and ever.

If you reject me, you will burn in unending fire forever and ever. Better now?

A geologist is a fault-finder.

#44    1Ophelia

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:28 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 11 April 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

I listened to the video, and I think it had plenty of good points about Atheists, but the Christian who rang up was so inarticulate that I learned virtually nothing him or his beliefs.  I learned about the atheist stance on Christianity, but Christianity itself, and Christians themselves, I did not learn anything except that some people can't express themselves very well.

That said, welcome to the forums, Ophelia, I hope you enjoy your stay here :tu:

~ PA

That video was one of the lesser interesting ones produced by 'Athiest Experience', though mind you, they are all relatively intereseting. I do agree, not much is learnt from the side of the Christian, perhaps he should spend more time practising how to articulate him self better rather than practising Christianity =)

Thankyou, for your welcoming =)


#45    MJNYC

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:05 PM

Jesus did exist.

http://en.wikipedia....sephus_on_Jesus





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