30 replies to this topic

[Ben Masada]

THE TREE OF LIFE VS. ETERNAL LIFE


When reference is made about the Tree of Life in the Genesis account of Creation, the objective is to teach us the lesson that the attribute of eternal life was not granted to man.

According to Genesis 3:22, Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden with the purpose to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means that the attribute of eternity belongs with God only and not with man.

We are subjected to the law of genesis and destruction, that is, birth and death. Only God, Who had no beginning will have no end. So, any promise of eternal life given in the NT is a Pauline fabrication to promote creditation for the Church he had founded, according to Acts 11:26, and to keep people's hope up and attached to it.
Ben

[keven3]

Ben Masada, on 10 April 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

THE TREE OF LIFE VS. ETERNAL LIFE


When reference is made about the Tree of Life in the Genesis account of Creation, the objective is to teach us the lesson that the attribute of eternal life was not granted to man.

According to Genesis 3:22, Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden with the purpose to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means that the attribute of eternity belongs with God only and not with man.

We are subjected to the law of genesis and destruction, that is, birth and death. Only God, Who had no beginning will have no end. So, any promise of eternal life given in the NT is a Pauline fabrication to promote creditation for the Church he had founded, according to Acts 11:26, and to keep people's hope up and attached to it.
Ben

Interesting perspective.

I think that through Jesus' sacrifice we are offered eternal life on his merits alone and not on ours.

Keven

[P4UL N0153]

Ben Masada, on 10 April 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

THE TREE OF LIFE VS. ETERNAL LIFE


When reference is made about the Tree of Life in the Genesis account of Creation, the objective is to teach us the lesson that the attribute of eternal life was not granted to man.

According to Genesis 3:22, Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden with the purpose to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means that the attribute of eternity belongs with God only and not with man.

We are subjected to the law of genesis and destruction, that is, birth and death. Only God, Who had no beginning will have no end. So, any promise of eternal life given in the NT is a Pauline fabrication to promote creditation for the Church he had founded, according to Acts 11:26, and to keep people's hope up and attached to it.
Ben

This is not an entirely accurate conclusion, as eternal life was spoken to  in Daniel, Isaiah, Psalms and Job.

In Daniel 12:2 it is stated, "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."
Isaiah 26:19 states, "BUt your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of teh morning; the earth will give birth to her dead"
Psalm 16:10 "Because you will not abandonme to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay."
Job 19:26,27 "And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in flesh I will see God; I myself will see Him with my own eyes-I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!"

According to these OT sources, eternal life was never in question.

[Copen]

keven3, on 10 April 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

Interesting perspective.

I think that through Jesus' sacrifice we are offered eternal life on his merits alone and not on ours.

Keven

Keven, I don't mean to be rude. I hope you don't take offense.
Some scriptures have been misunderstood to think eternal salvation was/is offered. They can be understood differently and thereby completely agree with the vast amount of scripture that teaches election and predestination.
According to the Bible, Jesus "came to save His people from their sins." He said, "I know my sheep by their name and when I call they come." God is all powerful. He said it is finished. He did what he came to do. No where is salvation an offer. Whosoever believeth HATH (past tense - already has) everlasting life. Believing is the evidence - not the way to get it. If man has the power to make or break what Jesus did, then he has every right to boast that he was smart enough or lucky enough to apply the blood to himself and obtain his eternal salvation. He has every right to boast for he merits his salvation.

There are 2 kinds of salvations (deliverances) in  the Bible. Eternal salvation is100% by the shed blood of a spotless Lamb. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Add anything to the blood (believe, accept, repent, confess, etc.) and you dilute the blood. Earthly - timely salvation is for those who are eternally saved and do not know Jesus. This salvation comes via the gospel. Blessings follow the obedient.

If God left something so vital as eternal salvation in the hands of man that by preaching the gospel they can be eternally saved --- then it was a very inept plan and man has failed miserably. The gospel didn't get to the Americas for 1,500 years. History says the gospel was spreading like gang busters for the first 500 years. Then all of civilized Europe went into a slumber called the Dark Middle Ages for 1,000 years. Then God awakened mankind. The printing press was invented which caused man to be able to read for themselves what the Bible said. Under the leadership of Martin Luther and John Calvin they began to have the biggest revivals since Jesus. They reverted back to the gospel of election and predestined. God was getting all the glory.  
God bless us all is my prayer

Edited by Copen, 11 April 2012 - 12:33 AM.

[keven3]

Copen,

By my own experience, God has offered me salvation; I have accepted.

God bless you,
Keven

Edited by keven3, 11 April 2012 - 03:03 AM.

[Ben Masada]

keven3, on 10 April 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

Interesting perspective.

I think that through Jesus' sacrifice we are offered eternal life on his merits alone and not on ours.

Keven

I understand that, in your opinion, Jesus came to contradict God's Word. Is it the message you convey by saying that Jesus brought eternal life when we have very clearly that the attribute of eternal life was denied man by God Himself? Was Jesus working against the Scriptures? Hardly! Therefore, eternal life belongs to God only. We don't have it, no matter what. I am sorry if you are disappointed, but the Truth couldn't be more clear.
Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 12 April 2012 - 05:33 PM.

[Ben Masada]

Pauly Dangerously, on 10 April 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

This is not an entirely accurate conclusion, as eternal life was spoken to  in Daniel, Isaiah, Psalms and Job.

In Daniel 12:2 it is stated, "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." Isaiah 26:19 states, "BUt your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of teh morning; the earth will give birth to her dead" Psalm 16:10 "Because you will not abandonme to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay." Job 19:26,27 "And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in flesh I will see God; I myself will see Him with my own eyes-I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!"

According to these OT sources, eternal life was never in question.

I agree with you that eternal life was never in question but for those who do not understand metaphorical language. That is, those of the kind of the literal interpretation club.

Pauli, according to Isaiah 53:8,9, for us, the Jews, when we are forced out into exile, it is as if we have been cut off from the Land of the Living, which is the Land of Israel, and graves have been assigned to us in the Diaspora among the Gentiles. That's exactly what the Prophet says. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens those graves up and brings His People back to the Land of Israel. That's in Ezekiel 37:12. That's the truth about resurrection in metaphorical terms. And there is nothing to refer the text to eternal life.

Now, with reference to Daniel 12:2, here is what it means: Many of those who are in exile, at the end of it, shall be aware that the exile is over. Some shall live forever, which means that they will return to the land of the living, which is the Land of Israel, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. These are those who choose to stay on in their condition of exile as the slave whom freedom is granted and prefers to remain as a slave. That is considered by the Jew as a shameful condition, everlasting contempt.

The decay referred to in Psalm 16:10 is what happened to Israel, the Ten Tribes. They decayed in the Diaspora and got
lost for good. But the Tribe of Judah, aka, the Jewish People, the Lord won't allow His holy ones to decay. It means that, usually, our exile is temporary.

And last but not least, Job 19:26,27 is just clear enough, that what he hoped was to happen in his own life, as he would recover from his distemper. I am sure you understand that he would not contradict himself to mean what you understand, when he says in Job 10:21 that, after death one is gone to the land that he or she will never return.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 12 April 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[keven3]

Ben Masada, on 12 April 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

THE TREE OF LIFE VS. ETERNAL LIFE


When reference is made about the Tree of Life in the Genesis account of Creation, the objective is to teach us the lesson that the attribute of eternal life was not granted to man.

According to Genesis 3:22, Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden with the purpose to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means that the attribute of eternity belongs with God only and not with man.

We are subjected to the law of genesis and destruction, that is, birth and death. Only God, Who had no beginning will have no end. So, any promise of eternal life given in the NT is a Pauline fabrication to promote creditation for the Church he had founded, according to Acts 11:26, and to keep people's hope up and attached to it.
Ben

And

I understand that, in your opinion, Jesus came to contradict God's Word. Is it the message you convey by saying that Jesus brought eternal life when we have very clearly that the attribute of eternal life was denied man by God Himself? Was Jesus working against the Scriptures? Hardly! Therefore, eternal life belongs to God only. We don't have it, no matter what. I am sorry if you are disappointed, but the Truth couldn't be more clear.
Ben

Jesus, when he rose from the dead and then ascended into heaven and then allowed the outpouring of the holy spirit became the lamb who atones for our sins. For those of us around the world who accept this, who accept the redeeming power of Jesus into our souls, receive eternal salvation and thus live for eternity with God the Father, son and holy spirit.

Keven

Edited by keven3, 12 April 2012 - 06:06 PM.

[Ben Masada]

keven3, on 12 April 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

Jesus, when he rose from the dead and then ascended into heaven and then allowed the outpouring of the holy spirit became the lamb who atones for our sins. For those of us around the world who accept this, who accept the redeeming power of Jesus into our souls, receive eternal salvation and thus live for eternity with God the Father, son and holy spirit.

Keven

Perhaps, you read my post about Jesus in contradiction with the Word of God, but you did not understand it. You insist that he changed what has been written to a different understanding from what is clearly stated in Genesis 3:22, that man was not granted to live forever. You must have been born and spent all of your life in the hope that the Scriptures does not mean what it says.
Ben

[keven3]

Ben Masada, on 12 April 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Perhaps, you read my post about Jesus in contradiction with the Word of God, but you did not understand it. You insist that he changed what has been written to a different understanding from what is clearly stated in Genesis 3:22, that man was not granted to live forever. You must have been born and spent all of your life in the hope that the Scriptures does not mean what it says.
Ben

I did read it and fully disagree with you. I was visited by God and believe in the Gospel, which includes Paul's testimony. Logic doesn't always help us with spiritual truths.

Keven

[Copen]

keven3, on 11 April 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

Copen,

By my own experience, God has offered me salvation; I have accepted.

God bless you,
Keven

Keven,
"The natural man receiveth not the spiritual things of God, they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them. " I Cor. 2:14 If the natural man can not know or understand anything about God in order to decide to accept them -- then God has to do a work in you and make you a spiritual man before you can see and hear and understand. After than man is receptive to God. "It's the work of God that you believe."

It may seem that Jesus offered salvation to you and you were smart enough or lucky enough to accept; but it contradicts scripture. You also would have the right to boast that you had any part (not matter how small) in accomplishing your eternal salvation.

John 1:13 "Who were born, not of blood (not a physical birth), nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man (not of man's mind and will), but of God."
Again, "It is not of him who willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy...therefore hath He mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom HE WILL HE HARDENETH." Romans 9:16
According to the Bible God hardened the Pharaoh's heart twice so that he would not let the Israelites leave Egypt.
God bless us all is my prayer

[Copen]

Ben Masada, on 10 April 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

THE TREE OF LIFE VS. ETERNAL LIFE


When reference is made about the Tree of Life in the Genesis account of Creation, the objective is to teach us the lesson that the attribute of eternal life was not granted to man.

According to Genesis 3:22, Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden with the purpose to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means that the attribute of eternity belongs with God only and not with man.

We are subjected to the law of genesis and destruction, that is, birth and death. Only God, Who had no beginning will have no end. So, any promise of eternal life given in the NT is a Pauline fabrication to promote creditation for the Church he had founded, according to Acts 11:26, and to keep people's hope up and attached to it.
Ben

The Tree of Life gave eternal PHYSICAL life. Had Adam and Eve eaten from it they never would have died physically. In their sinful state, if they never would die, sin would have increased and increased and life would be a never ending hell on earth. Angels were placed around it so that no one will accidentally come upon it and eat from it. Medical science has made many wonderful discoveries. People have living longer and bigger; but in the long run --- flesh is corruptible and everybody will die. Medical science will never find that Tree of Life.

[Copen]

Ben Masada, on 10 April 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

THE TREE OF LIFE VS. ETERNAL LIFE


When reference is made about the Tree of Life in the Genesis account of Creation, the objective is to teach us the lesson that the attribute of eternal life was not granted to man.

According to Genesis 3:22, Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden with the purpose to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. It means that the attribute of eternity belongs with God only and not with man.

We are subjected to the law of genesis and destruction, that is, birth and death. Only God, Who had no beginning will have no end. So, any promise of eternal life given in the NT is a Pauline fabrication to promote creditation for the Church he had founded, according to Acts 11:26, and to keep people's hope up and attached to it.
Ben

The Tree of Life gave eternal PHYSICAL life. Had Adam and Eve eaten from it they never would have died physically. In their sinful state, if they never would die, sin would have increased and increased and life would be a never ending hell on earth. Angels were placed around it so that no one will accidentally come upon it and eat from it. Medical science has made many wonderful discoveries. People are living longer and growing bigger; but in the long run --- flesh is corruptible and everybody will die. Medical science will never find that Tree of Life.

Edited by Copen, 13 April 2012 - 02:44 AM.

[P4UL N0153]

Ben Masada, on 12 April 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

I agree with you that eternal life was never in question but for those who do not understand metaphorical language. That is, those of the kind of the literal interpretation club.

Pauli, according to Isaiah 53:8,9, for us, the Jews, when we are forced out into exile, it is as if we have been cut off from the Land of the Living, which is the Land of Israel, and graves have been assigned to us in the Diaspora among the Gentiles. That's exactly what the Prophet says. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens those graves up and brings His People back to the Land of Israel. That's in Ezekiel 37:12. That's the truth about resurrection in metaphorical terms. And there is nothing to refer the text to eternal life.

Now, with reference to Daniel 12:2, here is what it means: Many of those who are in exile, at the end of it, shall be aware that the exile is over. Some shall live forever, which means that they will return to the land of the living, which is the Land of Israel, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. These are those who choose to stay on in their condition of exile as the slave whom freedom is granted and prefers to remain as a slave. That is considered by the Jew as a shameful condition, everlasting contempt.

The decay referred to in Psalm 16:10 is what happened to Israel, the Ten Tribes. They decayed in the Diaspora and got
lost for good. But the Tribe of Judah, aka, the Jewish People, the Lord won't allow His holy ones to decay. It means that, usually, our exile is temporary.

And last but not least, Job 19:26,27 is just clear enough, that what he hoped was to happen in his own life, as he would recover from his distemper. I am sure you understand that he would not contradict himself to mean what you understand, when he says in Job 10:21 that, after death one is gone to the land that he or she will never return.

Ben

That is certainly one Rabbinical interpretation of the text, but we must consider all possibilities. Regardless of the dogma, people have and will continue to believe that there awaits something far greater for them after death. Such things were promised to them through their holy book. I myself believe in none of it, OT or NT. It suffices perfectly for me that they are morality tales designed to help a tribal people coexist. Either way, better men than we have debated this for ages...

[Ben Masada]

keven3, on 12 April 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

Jesus, when he rose from the dead and then ascended into heaven and then allowed the outpouring of the holy spirit became the lamb who atones for our sins. For those of us around the world who accept this, who accept the redeeming power of Jesus into our souls, receive eternal salvation and thus live for eternity with God the Father, son and holy spirit.

Keven

So, in that case, what is more important to you, the truth in the Scriptures or the Christian pre-conceived notions of your faith? The truth in the Word of God or what you have decided to believe?
Ben