85 replies to this topic

[fullywired]

Paranoid Android, on 14 April 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

The question stated that I see 0.01% as an impressive success rate.  But I see 100% success rate.  How can I therefore agree with the question, just because the question wants me to see prayers as answered ONLY via miraculous intervention.  But for the sake of argument I'll accede point number 2, where in the rest of the questions is the minimum standard for a Christian?  4-out-of-10 is what you said, even taking 1 full point for that question we are only at 3.5/10.....

Sorry, FW, I understand what you're trying to say, but I cannot agree.  If the article was much less confrontational I would probably agree with more. But its confrontational nature is exactly what brought scores down to begin with.  To use my earlier example, if the question said "You believe in a triune God", I'd 100% agree and give a full point.  But that wasn't the question asked.  The question asked was "you laugh at polytheists".... but still believe in a triune God.  At best I can only give a half point.  Blame the article, not my response

~ PA

I think you earned another half point for No10,you said you agreed that you deny the existence of other gods ,ignore the outrage bit,That lets you qualify as a Christian (but only just)  as I said ,strip away the excessive remarks and your left with what Christians believe in

   fullywired

[Mr Walker]

fullywired, on 14 April 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

I think you earned another half point for No10,you said you agreed that you deny the existence of other gods ,ignore the outrage bit,That lets you qualify as a Christian (but only just)  as I said ,strip away the excessive remarks and your left with what Christians believe in

   fullywired

Does this mean that you think all christians must be exclusivist christians to qualify as christian? Ie they see christianity as the only true spiritual path?

I have chosen christianity as a way to live my life and a formal way of recognising my interconnection with god, but I know other humans do the same thing just as effectively using difernt paths. Christianity is a viable, effective, and workable, way for a person to live a  spiritual /religious life and to connect to god, but it is not the only such pathway. Relatively few christians, in my experience and reading, believe that (even theoretically) only christians will be in heaven after the ressurection. The latter is a very exclusivist and limiting thelogical position.

[and then]

Mr Walker, on 15 April 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

Does this mean that you think all christians must be exclusivist christians to qualify as christian? Ie they see christianity as the only true spiritual path?

I have chosen christianity as a way to live my life and a formal way of recognising my interconnection with god, but I know other humans do the same thing just as effectively using difernt paths. Christianity is a viable, effective, and workable, way for a person to live a  spiritual /religious life and to connect to god, but it is not the only such pathway. Relatively few christians, in my experience and reading, believe that (even theoretically) only christians will be in heaven after the ressurection. The latter is a very exclusivist and limiting thelogical position.

Yet Christ Himself said so.  How are we to be called by His name yet not believe His own words?  It is human discernment to decide what is acceptable for ourselves but if we truly are to follow Christ, don't we have to first believe what He said?  I don't pretend to understand why others would be excluded.  I don't believe it is due to any special abilities or holiness that Christians are given His grace.  It all comes back to faith.  Who is willing to believe that which they cannot prove with evidence for the senses?  Abraham believed and it was counted for him as righteousness.  By that standard the VAST majority will not be saved.  They will live out their lives steering their own paths in the world and reject the notion of being told what to do by anyone.  They think of it as freedom when in fact they are deluded.  Yes, we have freedom to choose our path but every step takes us closer to God or farther from Him.  And when this speck of time we call a life is finished we are held to account for every choice we made.
I made the choice to take Him at His word and admit that nothing in this life has meaning if He doesn't guide me into it.  I have no need to be at enmity with any other person over their choices.

[fullywired]

Mr Walker, on 15 April 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

Does this mean that you think all christians must be exclusivist christians to qualify as christian? Ie they see christianity as the only true spiritual path?

I have chosen christianity as a way to live my life and a formal way of recognising my interconnection with god, but I know other humans do the same thing just as effectively using difernt paths. Christianity is a viable, effective, and workable, way for a person to live a  spiritual /religious life and to connect to god, but it is not the only such pathway. Relatively few christians, in my experience and reading, believe that (even theoretically) only christians will be in heaven after the ressurection. The latter is a very exclusivist and limiting thelogical position.

Your telling me that you have made your own religion up,I thought Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me".That's the point everybody is making up their own version and calling themselves Christians .It seems to me that only Christians will be in heaven after the resurrection according to Jesus and not a load of Cherry pickers with their own brand of Christianity

                                     fullywired

Edited by fullywired, 15 April 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[Mr Walker]

and then, on 15 April 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

Yet Christ Himself said so.  How are we to be called by His name yet not believe His own words?  It is human discernment to decide what is acceptable for ourselves but if we truly are to follow Christ, don't we have to first believe what He said?  I don't pretend to understand why others would be excluded.  I don't believe it is due to any special abilities or holiness that Christians are given His grace.  It all comes back to faith.  Who is willing to believe that which they cannot prove with evidence for the senses?  Abraham believed and it was counted for him as righteousness.  By that standard the VAST majority will not be saved.  They will live out their lives steering their own paths in the world and reject the notion of being told what to do by anyone.  They think of it as freedom when in fact they are deluded.  Yes, we have freedom to choose our path but every step takes us closer to God or farther from Him.  And when this speck of time we call a life is finished we are held to account for every choice we made.
I made the choice to take Him at His word and admit that nothing in this life has meaning if He doesn't guide me into it.  I have no need to be at enmity with any other person over their choices.

I appreciate this and I accept that in christian theology, christ died for all men. In that theology all men are redeemed by christs sacrifice. That  doesnt mean all men have to be christian to be reconnected to god. God IS and we can reconnect to him in many ways.
Only an outright refusal to accept and be a part of god  makes this reconnection to god impossible, because god cannot force us.  I agree, many people choose to turn away from god  willfully deliberately and permananently, and he can do little for them because they wont let him. But the great majority of humans believe in god and he can see into their hearts and minds to judge them as required.

[Mr Walker]

fullywired, on 15 April 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

Your telling me that you have made your own religion up,I thought Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except through me".That's the point everybody is making up their own version and calling themselves Christians .It seems to me that only Christians will be in heaven after the resurrection according to Jesus and not a load of Cherry pickers with their own brand of Christianity

                                     fullywired

You did not answer my question. But oh well.

No i did not make my religion up. God came to me physically and undeniably, but he didnt claim to be the christian god, and in fact never identified himself as god. (but a dog doesnt have to say its a dog either )

.i chose christianity as my form of "worship'of or relationship  with that powerful entity, for personal and cultural reasons. I chose to folow the closest to biblical form as i could because much of christianity has been changed through 2000 years of theological evolution and i wanted to be like those other people who knew god as a real physical and powerful being.However, my  observance of christianity and my understanding of its theology is not unique to me. It is a widespread one across many  denominations. Archbishop pell, the highest ranking catholic clergy in Austrlaia, jus tsaid on the ABc this week that, in his view, all humans will eventually be reunited with god, except those who just dont want to be.  He said "heaven " will be filled with atheists and people of all religions. In christian theology christ died for all men  And so yes christians believe they have to come to god through christ, but that isn't the case. Christ enables all humans to be reunited with god past present and future in an after life, but Humans have been coming to god in this life, since they evolved sapience and became aware of him. They came to god before christianity or even judaism were ever evolved.

[fullywired]

Mr Walker, on 15 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

Y.
.i chose christianity as my form of "worship'of or relationship  with that powerful entity, for personal and cultural reasons. I chose to folow the closest to biblical form as i could because much of christianity has been changed through 2000 years of theological evolution

.


Just as I said, you have made your own brand of religion.What are you going to say to Jesus on judgement day, that you have cherry picked bits of the bible,but you think god slipped up when he wrote the bible and you have rectified the mistakes.and if your Archbishop is correct then us atheists are laughing, we  can  have a good time and still end up in the same place as the  genuine  Christians;.(which doesn;t include you ) but not to worry I'll  see you  there :



fullywired

Edited by fullywired, 15 April 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

fullywired, on 15 April 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

.


Just as I said, you have made your own brand of religion.What are you going to say to Jesus on judgement day, that you have cherry picked bits of the bible,but you think god slipped up when he wrote the bible and you have rectified the mistakes.


fullywired

Gotta agree with you  there... And  to add  he is not the only perosn to make up their own brand of Christianity  

. I know of a few others  who will raise the bar a little and  claim  - We follow the bible and yes Jesus.. but ... ( and yes there is a but ) we are not really Christians   ....( how unusual ).......  but we are closer to God...Like we get specially picked out   and our experiences are  how do you say ....higher than any average Christian?  

We have people approach us in the streets  like we are Jesus... So to sum up.. We are  HIGHER than Christians...but we don't like to say that in full because we fear the reaction some Christians will give us...... So we will dance around that !!!..

IF anyone spots this and  tries to expose  it. we will sit in denial and  again  - dance around it ..

If anyone calls us Christians? .We will act like it is an insult and imply how that is just .....beneath us  how dare you  lol

We can pray and get kept safe, were as the average Christians  can pray too but if they do not get answer, it must mean..well it means they are not like us.. that high up the heavenly ladder  lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 15 April 2012 - 05:00 PM.

[fullywired]

fullywired, on 15 April 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

.
Sorry

Edited by fullywired, 15 April 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Paranoid Android]

fullywired, on 14 April 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

I think you earned another half point for No10,you said you agreed that you deny the existence of other gods ,ignore the outrage bit,That lets you qualify as a Christian (but only just)  as I said ,strip away the excessive remarks and your left with what Christians believe in

   fullywired

Ok, that's a fair point, I re-read the questions and no. 10 does deserve an extra half-mark (I think when I first read it I was in a particular frame of mind that didn't really consider 1/2 marks).  I still wouldn't give myself any points about prayer, but I see your point.  I guess I'm riling against the entire idea that a Christian can be defined by the intolerance presented within the evilbible.com article.  I don't think any real Christian can manage 0-from-10, but at the same time I think defining a person by the intolerance shown by some is a very poor way to decide whether a person is a true believer.

That's my thoughts, take it or leave it

~ PA

Edited by Paranoid Android, 15 April 2012 - 05:01 PM.

[fullywired]

Paranoid Android, on 15 April 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

..  I don't think any real Christian can manage 0-from-10, but at the same time I think defining a person by the intolerance shown by some is a very poor way to decide whether a person is a true believer.

That's my thoughts, take it or leave it

~ PA

I have to agree with you there but for me I can't agree that the 3000 different editions can all claim to be Christians nor will I ever be convinced

                                 fullywired

[Mr Walker]

fullywired, on 15 April 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

.


Just as I said, you have made your own brand of religion.What are you going to say to Jesus on judgement day, that you have cherry picked bits of the bible,but you think god slipped up when he wrote the bible and you have rectified the mistakes.and if your Archbishop is correct then us atheists are laughing, we  can  have a good time and still end up in the same place as the  genuine  Christians;.(which doesn;t include you ) but not to worry I'll  see you  there :



fullywired

ROFLMAO Every human "makes" their own  "brand of religion". That is as natural and inevitable as everyone of us possessing a separate consciousness and separate experiential based world view.

No two humans are identically  alike in their theologies any more than their philosophies. You are either trying to bait me   or genuinely dont understand  (or dont agree with) mainstream christian theological positions on this. Thats Ok . It is understandable  in that it is not important to you.

And I dont have to worry about jesus, and the judgement day.   I am comfortable, both in my thelogical position on jesus/gods view on this, and in my personal relationship with god. I live with the physical presence of god in my heart, my mind, and my environment, every minute of every day.

That  in itself doesn't make me a good (or better) person, but itmeans I am comfortable in my relationship with god now and in the future. I work on it, as i do on all important relationships.  God points out to me where i get it wrong, and encourages me to improve, but he doesnt expect perfection; just steady effort, growth, evolution, and learning.

That relationship with, and connection to, god is not dependent on my christian viewpoint or on any religious theological pov. Those come second to my existence as a part of god and gods existence as a part of me.

God came to me when i was an absolute atheist.One doesnt have to have a religious belief structure to connect to god, although it does help many people.

It could exist and be maintained within ANY form of religious framework, past or present.  Christianity makes it clear that connection to god is an individual thing, which does not require the bleesing of the church There was no "church" in christ's life The church provides a framework, and things like social support. But a man could live alone on a mountain all his life and still be one with god.
You are not qualified academically or otherwise to decide whether I am "a christian".   Only god and I am privy to that.

Fortunately it doesnt matter to god if I am, or not. If i am a "good" person and connect to god it doesnt matter if i am pagan, jew, buddhist, jainist, muslim, or gaean. God is god of all humans wheter they realise or appreciate that or not (and that is part of christian theology) We cant escape it. And, as such, the form of religious worship we take is not particularly important, if it strengthens our relationship with god and helps us hear, and listen to, him. Listening to god, and being "in sync" with god, in a personal realtionship, does make a differnce to a human's life on earth. A very significant differnce, in many real, physical, and psychological ways. Ps I assume you mean "your" archbishop as in Australian. He is not "My" archbishop in any other sense. I just happened to see him in a public discussion with richard dawkins, last monday night.

I was suprised (but pleased) to hear a catholic bishop express such an enlightened and liberal view on the question of who will get to "heaven".
persoanlly i dont believe(or disbelieve) in a heaven after death, but i know one can live in "the kingdom of god" while on earth today. And in that  sense, I believe, based on the evidences, that every human being can enter into "the kingdom of heaven" right now, if they choose to and live in it for their whole natural life. It is a wonderful place to exist in. And just as the bible happens to promise it will be.

Edited by Mr Walker, 16 April 2012 - 02:01 AM.

[Mr Walker]

Beckys_Mom, on 15 April 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Gotta agree with you  there... And  to add  he is not the only perosn to make up their own brand of Christianity  

. I know of a few others  who will raise the bar a little and  claim  - We follow the bible and yes Jesus.. but ... ( and yes there is a but ) we are not really Christians   ....( how unusual ).......  but we are closer to God...Like we get specially picked out   and our experiences are  how do you say ....higher than any average Christian?  

We have people approach us in the streets  like we are Jesus... So to sum up.. We are  HIGHER than Christians...but we don't like to say that in full because we fear the reaction some Christians will give us...... So we will dance around that !!!..

IF anyone spots this and  tries to expose  it. we will sit in denial and  again  - dance around it ..

If anyone calls us Christians? .We will act like it is an insult and imply how that is just .....beneath us  how dare you  lol

We can pray and get kept safe, were as the average Christians  can pray too but if they do not get answer, it must mean..well it means they are not like us.. that high up the heavenly ladder  lol

See my response to fully wired for my thoughts; but one point, since you referred to me specifically.

In my case my relationship with god neither makes me special nor better than anyone else, and i dont see or feel this way about it. It just is what it is. I didnt chose it. I have little say in the matter (although I   chose to accept it graciously, and make the most of it, being a rational person)
In my opinion (naturally biased by my own expereinces) this is the natural condition of humanity. It is something  which is not just available to all humans, but  it is howhow we are MEANT to live, as a product of our evolution.  

I am not special, or superior,  or better, in  any way, just differnt. Differnce has its good points and bad points.  I have to deal with both. All humans are differnt/unique. How you view this, or feel about it, is relevant only to you. It is i who have to deal with the reality of it every day.

I appreciate that the rest of your comments were general, and referred to others. I can't speak for others, only for myself, but I cant help how you feel about me either, or about how you see/perceive my descripions of my life and self.

No man is higher than another. We are not just equal, but all part of one being.  And christ himself made that very clear. But he also said to make the most of ALL the talents god gives to you. I try my hardest to do that.

[Tiggs]

Paranoid Android, on 14 April 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

I guess the point stands that I was "grading" this because it was being graded by others and it was suggested that a 4-out-of-10 was a minimum requirement for someone who called themselves "Christian"

I wouldn't worry, too much. I have it on fairly good authority that FullyWired probably won't be in charge of deciding who goes through the Pearly Gates

[socrates.junior]

fullywired, on 15 April 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Just as I said, you have made your own brand of religion.What are you going to say to Jesus on judgement day, that you have cherry picked bits of the bible,but you think god slipped up when he wrote the bible and you have rectified the mistakes.and if your Archbishop is correct then us atheists are laughing, we  can  have a good time and still end up in the same place as the  genuine  Christians;.(which doesn;t include you ) but not to worry I'll  see you  there

Eh, you're not really an atheist if you're copping out like that. I've noticed quite a few of my atheist friends who have that same mental reservation. You're taking Pascal's wager, whether you like it or not.