ancientpolygon, on 22 April 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:
"1) Conservative figures have already been presented that illustrate that a shaft of ~ 6 m could be achieved by a small team, laboring consistently, in approximately one year." - Good, that's one explanation.
"The irregular and inconsistent perimeters of the presented shaft views would argue against the utilization of uniformly designed and mechanically powered devices." - Do you have any sources, from traditional egyptologists, etc as to how these shafts were constructed?
" 2) This observation was directly in regards to the Sacsayhuaman artifact." - Ahh, I see. Well in that case this makes your previous statement of "c) Given the location of this specimen and its presumably long-term vulnerability to souvenir hunters, the deliberate modification of this piece by any number of such souvenir hunters utilizing ferric hammers can not be ruled out."
even more hilarious. The net like pattern cut into the stone is quite weathered. No body I've heard from of describing it has ever thought of this being something made by ferric hammers, much less by souvenir hunters. You sir are skating on the fringes of fringiness!
"First, there is no credible documentation for the human "softening of igneous stone" in the manner implied. This is yet another rather aged fringe proposition." - Correct, archaeologists prefer to avoid this area when it comes to Cuzco.. either because they haven't explored it or they understand the ramifications of studying it and seeing where the research will take them. I think I provided enough photos and a paper, which I thought you accepted on the matter. What do you want me to do, travel back in time and steal their equipment for you? Yes, we don't know what kind of physical or chemical process that stone underwent, but you can't throw out the plethora of visual evidence which clearly shows some sort of vitrification process taking place in the shaping of those stones. I refer to it as plasticine because I've found no better word which describes the effects seen on that stone and many others like it. When you come up with one, let me know.
"Would Sklyarov or you be proposing that the floor of the temple was being utilized as a production site?" - Ok... what don't you understand here? a) Floor made of black basalt blocks near the great pyramid or b ) Some of the blocks making up this floor show chaotic incisions on them with a width of a few millimeters, or c) The video and photographic evidence presented to affirm this.
"6) This is the second time that you have presented this rather infantile ploy." - Now, now, let's not belittle all the hard workers who go to work and endlessly toil on shaping and drilling antlers all day.:)
"my professional research has involved the drilling of lithic materials with a Mohs scaling of up to ~5." - So, who are you by profession again?
"Magnification of the obsidian earspool would appear to indicate that the surface treatment of the interior of the outer groove presents irregular striation patterns consistent with the utilization of abrasive materials." - Source? I see a whole bunch of words but no source to back this up. Should I just trust you on this? The ones I saw at the UPenn museum exhibited no striations on the surface. What I observed was that the spool surface looked as if it was cut as it was being spun about it's central axis at a high speed. I have worked with a lathe before so it's not something new to me. Having said that I'd like to see your source for your words above.
"found in Mexico" - Yes, I am not content with his wording either..again it stems from the way some Russians prefer to present things in general. I would have preferred that he say.. "We found these objects on display at the Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City". But, he didn't.. c'est la vie.
"Kindly do not attempt to distort such." - Kindly stop the buffoonery of claiming that the Maya and their culture had no existence in Mexico. How am I distorting anything, except correcting you. You should thank me... and maybe go to Mexico and check some of the Mayan archaeological sites out for yourself.
" 10) Percentage-wise, the recovery of complete artifacts is far more the exception than the rule. Poor argument. Or would you be suggesting that the segment pictured is not reflective of the lithic technology of the period/culture?" - What I am suggesting is that I want to see that bracelet in a photograph and not rendered in 3D polygons by Mohamed Ben Tkaya so that I can judge it's symmetry, surface consistency, etc. Why is that so hard to understand?
"The bulk of the rest of your presentation is yet more fringe mentality. If the qualified data has been accumulated, present such in a qualified form. Do not expect others to do it for you. Controversial hypotheses are presented in professional journals on a somewhat regular basis. The relatively recent works by Stanford and Bradley come to mind." - It's not my problem that you don't find this form qualifying enough. When I travel to Peru and Bolivia I will be able to give a much better presentation, because obviously I'll be in full control of the project. However, I do consider Sklyarov and his team's research, findings, and photographic evidence to be very well executed. So can you give me a link to what you're talking about with these Stanford and Bradley? Or do I have to wade through dark bowels of the internet?
"A brief addendum: In the above, you refer to the valued contributions of Oniomancer as being of "troll" status on four occasions. Given the extent of his knowledge base and his extensive qualified contributions to these pages, one may wish to be a bit more cautious in regards to such classificatory practices." - Well, he started out well enough, but when he started posting photos of limestone quarries, I started to question his vision ability as well as his sanity. By that time he had already made quite a few trolly statements and wasn't really providing any new information.. just trolling and re-stating his previous assertions. So, I branded him a troll. I believe any other sane individual would have done the same in my place. If he follows a less facetious approach to the subject I hold in very high regard, then he will regain some of his status... but for now he remains a troll.
In order of bolding:
1) Your post #54, heading #2:
And this similar one which is a detail of one of the corners in the wall of Sacsahuaman
http://lah.ru/fotoar...eru/sacs/01.jpg So, what kind of antler cutting technology might they be using there?
My post #69, in response to your post #54. This post follows both numerical and bolding sequences of your previous:
2) Your rather facetious attempt to distort the perspective aside, this is yet another low-grade photo. And once again without scale. If one were to cautiously speculate, based upon the photo, some observations could be tentatively presented:
a) There would appear to be a semi-ovoid and rather shallow depression at the top of the area of concern.
B) Below this is a rather vertical void in the parent material. This apparently shallow void presents quite irregular vertical lines. This could be the result of a number of factors including the natural enlargement and exfoliation of the parent material along a structural flaw such as the one which appears to the right of the subject area. Due to the nature of the photo and the parent material, it is rather difficult to ascertain if there are actually negative bulbs of percussion in the parent material that could be associated with intentional percussion-related modification of this flaw.
c) Given the location of this specimen and its presumably long-term vulnerability to souvenir hunters, the deliberate modification of this piece by any number of such souvenir hunters utilizing ferric hammers cannot be ruled out.
d) And your point would be?
As is clear from the details of the response, they are referring to the photo you provided in
http://lah.ru/fotoar...eru/sacs/01.jpg
Your post #72 in response to my post #69:
"this is yet another low-grade photo." - Here, let me help you...here are the series of photos it came from: http://lah.ru/fotoar...egypt/aswan.htm
In the above you now provide references to Egypt.
My response, post #77 to your post #72.
2) This observation was directly in regards to the Sacsayhuaman artifact. No mention of any other area/artifact was mentioned or inferred.
Your response, Post #79 to my post #77
" 2) This observation was directly in regards to the Sacsayhuaman artifact." - Ahh, I see. Well in that case this makes your previous statement of "c) Given the location of this specimen and its presumably long-term vulnerability to souvenir hunters, the deliberate modification of this piece by any number of such souvenir hunters utilizing ferric hammers cannot be ruled out." even more hilarious. The net like pattern cut into the stone is quite weathered. No body I've heard from of describing it has ever thought of this being something made by ferric hammers, much less by souvenir hunters. You sir are skating on the fringes of fringiness!
You would now appear to be referring to yet another artifact/location. If this pattern is reflective of your research "methodology", the inferences are apparent.
2+3) The photographs reflect rounding. Rounding, in itself, does not inherently reflect the molding of superheated lithic materials. Nor is there any indication of such capabilities or practices in regards to the culture(s) involved. As an aside, are you familiar with the cooling rates associated with crystal size formation in granitic materials? As to the paper, my comment was that it was
A somewhat interesting piece, and at least reasonably professional and
not terribly conclusive. And it deals with
speculated vitrification. There is a notable temperature differential between surface vitrification of lithic materials (which has been documented in Scotland) and the production of molten lithic material.
4) The apparent inference by Sklyarov is that these marks are the result of the temple floor or causeway being utilized as a production site as opposed to the marks being the result of the block's quarrying and/or modification by traditional technologies at their place of modification.
5) Magnification and evaluation of the photo supplied. While limited by pixilation at higher magnifications, some useful information can be derived. In regards to the obsidian biface:
a) The interior of the perforation would appear to have vertical sidewalls. Obsidian, while capable of producing exceedingly sharp edges, is quite brittle. Attempts to utilize pecking techniques to achieve a perforation of this nature in a piece of the apparent dimensions of this specimen would result in fracture. Such techniques would also not result in vertical sidewalls.
B) The upper rim of the perforation does not appear to indicate any degree of lateral micro-debitage removal as would be expected if percussive technologies had been utilized in the formation of the perforation.
c) The light refraction of the upper interior rim of the perforation would appear to be consistent with the crystalline crushing and displacement associated with the utilization of abrasives on a high-silicate material such as obsidian.
As to the earspool:
a) Evaluation of the upper interior of the medial groove would appear to present irregular striations and a lightening of the surface consistent with the utilization of abrasive technologies. There would not appear to be indications of concentric tooling marks reflective high-speed mechanical modification.
6) A photograph of a section of the bracelet is included in the source provided. It is unclear as to whether or not the complete bracelet was recovered. As previously mentioned, a partial recovery would not be at all unusual.
7) -
Bradley, Bruce and Dennis Stanford
2004 The North Atlantic Ice-Age Corridor: A Possible Paleolithic Route to the New World.
World Archaeology, Vol. 36, No. 4, pp. 459-478.
You may also find the counterargument to be of interest:
Strauss, Lawrence Guy, David T. Meltzer, and Ted Goebel
2005 Ice Age Atlantis? Exploring the Solutrean-Clovis "Connection".
World Archaeology, Vol. 37, No. 4, pp. 507-532.
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limestone-quarry.jpg 59.77K
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here are the series of photos it came from: 
