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Our dark side


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#1    me-wonders

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 05:02 PM

I questioning what is our dark side and how do we keep it repressed?  In quotations is a story from history, and what happened at Munster is not so different from what happened in Occupy camps.  

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The Holy Terrors of Munster In the long record of man's savagery to man, there is not more brutal episode than the drama of the Anabaptist revolution played out in the small city of Munster in northwest Germany in 1534-35. There, as the medieval world was dying and the modern age dawning, as an anciet social order disintegrated and a new proletariat was born, starving and desperate men conceived a utopian kingdom of eternal goodness and eternal peace- and ended by creating a forerunner of the modern totalitarian state.

Edmund Stillman "The Holy Terrors of Munster".

I am not sure Edmund Stillman association with the modern totalitarian state is not a prejudice that distorts the lesson we need to learn, but his account of what happened deserves our attention. I see a relationship between what happened in Munster and Occupy.

Anabaptist competed with Lutherans, and eventually became Mennonites and Amish. Something the later faiths might want to deny because they want to distance themselves from what happened at Munster. However, getting back to Occupy, this was not a religious movement, neither was the Russian revolution exactly a religious movement, because the Russian revolution banned religion. What is shared in common is the dying of an old order and beginning of a new order, also the gathering of rootless and discontent people, who want to believe if we lived communally, sharing everything equally, life would be better. These rootless and discontent people reacting against all forms of authority, and reducing their order to anarchy.

Quote

"But Munster would not remain Lutheran, and conservative, for long. When in 1532, the nearby Dutchy of Cleves expelled its Anabaptist, many of them migrated to Munster, carrying with them their doctrinal contagion. From then on the movement grew within the walls of the city. In 1533 new recruits, the first of many, arrived from the Netherlands, among them Jan Bockelson of Leyden, a young man of twenty-four who had been baptized into the movement only a few months before. "And so they came". records a chronicle, "the Dutch and the Frissians and the scoundrels from all parts who had never settled anywhere; they flocked to Munster and collected there."
As did the same kind of people flock to the Occupy camps, completely changing the movement from an economic focus to a social focus, and orderly protest to mayhem.

As within the walls of Munster, private property of all kinds was made communal property.  At Munster monogamony gave way to men having many wives and as conditions deteriorated to no sexual restraints but using sex to make up for all the unmet needs, including the need for food. Today, we seem to be maintain some respect for monogamony, but not gender differences, and not long term faithfulness.  Relationships last as long both people feel good.  These are not the committed relationships that establish social order.  We are living according to our feelings, not according to principles.

Around the city were mercenaries sent to crush the rebellion, and they laid siege on Munster, preventing any supplies from getting in, leading to starvation.

Quote: "At last, in May (1535), when most of the inhabitants had tasted no bread for eight weeks," writes Cohn, "the king agreed that those who wised should leave the town. Even then he cursed the fugitives, promising them that the reward for their infidelity would be everlasting damnation. Their earthly fate was indeed fearful enough. The able bodied men were at once put to the sword; as for the women and old men and children, the Bishop feared- not unreasonably- that if they passed through his lines they would stir up trouble in the rear and accordingly refused to allow them past the blockhouses. These people therefore lingered of for five weeks in the no man's land before the town walls, begging the mercenaries to kill them, crawling about and eating grass like animals and dying in such numbers that the ground was littered with corpses."

Putting able bodied men to the sword, comes from the old testament, to assure loyalty.

Within the city Anabaptist watched from the walls and jeered, acting out the belief so dear to medieval man that the greatest delight of the saved in Paradise was watching the sufferings of the damned in hell. Of course everyone within the city walls, were also starving and the siege ended in them all dying or being killed, and the leaders were hung in cages outside the city wall, where they remained until rather recently.

Occupy Eugene was surrounded by a fence, by city orders. Our story is not as dramatic, but when a man was killed in the camp, and the city counselors felt justified in closing the camp, a news photographer took a picture of the councilors, and they were smiling. I had mixed feelings as we did not get the promised social services, but I was also glad to distance myself from the mayham and human suffering.


#2    araxia

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:18 AM

....it seems man desired to create civilization yet the original barbarism remained in man... can man then not distance himself from the animal within? Despite their religious beliefs? Is it inherent of man to be animal?

and a further question this made me ask is: "when you make man face his dark side, would he continue or stop acting on it"? They faced the fact that they were living like animals in the first place, desired to create a modern society... they faced the dark side as in "man's animal side and need for improvement"... yet it seems as if though despite their works for improvement the savagery remains.

Posted Image

I like this picture... as if denoting no matter how pretty the PICTURE looks on the outside the inside is rotten...

Today my mother and I went to buy sandwiches and two black children walked passed us and looking and staring at us.. as if they desired to be WHITE, thinking "them whites have it easy why can't we be like them"... we were in our vehicle and they were on foot... and I thought to myself... "you have no idea what's it like be white, not all is as perfect as it seems, we might have fancy cars and plenty of food but our lives are really hell just like yours"...


#3    C235

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:57 AM

Darkness is an equation to light. The greater the light in a man. Bigger is the shadow that follows, threatening to overcome him.Just never let your guards down! :devil:


#4    araxia

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:06 AM

View PostC235, on 22 November 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

Darkness is an equation to light. The greater the light in a man. Bigger is the shadow that follows, threatening to overcome him.Just never let your guards down! :devil:

So the more man became evolved the more evil he became...mmm.. interesting thought... balance is everything lol :yes:

Yet how do you curb that dark side? With more knowledge and power comes more responsibility, but those who only want to power and are GREEDY will ABUSE that power and then you will end up with a HOT MESS.

I think the next question should be: "can man ever outgrow his own ego"?

Edited by araxia, 22 November 2012 - 08:21 AM.


#5    me-wonders

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 05:04 PM

I had forgotten this thread and had to read what I wrote to know what is about.  You all have added some good thinking, and this is so important to our personal power, as then we can consciously make decisions and direct our lives, instead of feeling like leaves blown in the wind.  

The reasoning for self government is based on the belief that humans can reason, and therefore they can live by reason.  However,we can not reason about something, if we have no word and no concept for something we might think about.  If we had no word for angry, we could not think about it and could not discuss it.  We could only act out how we feel.  So having a good vocabulary is fundamental living with reason.

Further more, as I struggle to reply to the replies, I realize I wouldn't be thinking what I am thinking, if you did not tell me what you are thinking.  Other animals may be capable of learning human language and we are getting really excited about that, but up to this point they have lived without language, without reason, on instinct and the feeling at the moment.   They are almost total individualism compared to our collectivism, with centuries of thinking added to what we think today.  Bottom line is we learn how to think and how to behave.  We to give some thought to what we want children to learn, and how we want them and adults to behave, and finally, how are we going to teach this, and what do we do with people who do not learn our agreed upon rules of life?   Anarchy is not a good thing!  I started by comparing  "he Holy Terrors of Munster" with Occupy.  99% of the time we do not live with anarchy, but in culturally controlled social organizations.  

There is talk of opening another Occupy camp this winter.  I feeling desperate to talk about this with everyone concerned, but that seems an overwhelming task.  I can't talk about this with city hall, because city governments are not organized to discuss things.  If I went to a city hall meeting, I would be given 5 minutes at most, to say anything, and this is only enough to time to mention what we need to discuss.  If it is not on the agenda, everyone will be annoyed by an intruder taking the meeting off topic, and they will not be able to listen as they will have other thoughts running through their heads.  If the homeless camp were on the agenda, so many people would say so many different things in their 5 to 3 minutes of speaking time, that again what is said will be as leaves blowing in the wind, not organized thoughts helpful to the thinking process.  

Rule by reason, requires a lot of communication, a shared language, and shared values, and shared goals.   It is not anarchy and we must consider this if we want humans to have good standards and to achieve things like harmony and shared goals.   Ignoring the complexity of getting desired results, therefore, anarchy, is sure to get bad results.


#6    AliveInDeath7

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:17 PM

There is no doubt that we all have light and dark in us. No one is completely pure, as no "evil" person is completely evil. Saying this, it's all about your personal perspective and what you would deem evil or good. I'm not saying that serial killers and those twisted sick people that do things that we cannot fathom doing should be considered in a merciful manner. Yes, people have done damnable things, countless times. I do think that the evil in those people has drowned out the good, but the good will always be there, even if it is but a spark. There is no good without bad, no bad without good. Even the "best" people are capable of sickening acts of evil.


#7    joc

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:43 PM

Very interesting read about Munster...but as far as Occupy...I don't see any connection.

I don't see a connection because Occupy was a political campaign born movement...not a real movement...and...where are all the occupiers now?  As soon as they weren't getting paid for camping...they left.

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#8    Moonshine

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:47 PM

The reason why we keep our dark side repressed is because it's easier that way. Originally mankind was under developed, slow, and savage. Over time it began to be obvious that being nice, and working together got you more 'stuff' and it was easier working in a team, than it was working on your own. Social contracts keep our dark side repressed because we like it easier! That's one reason at least.

Even a man who is pure of heart
And says his prayers by night
May become a wolf when the wolfsbane blooms
And the autumn moon is bright.

#9    AliveInDeath7

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:07 PM

I like how you put it, Moonshine, but it does sound a bit like wishful thinking. We really have no choice but to be good anymore, unless you wish to go to prison. There are many people that would rather live out their darkest fantasies but won't because of the consequences. Without law and moral I bet most of us would go back to the primitive ways that still lurk in our minds. It would be way easier to fall to evil to accomplish things than go about it the honest way.


#10    Beany

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 07:09 PM

I'm not sure all of us like it easier, but as a species we have a drive to survive, and cooperation, making conscious choices, allows us to do that. And sometimes acting against our own self-interest for the good of society is a survival strategy. This is one of those cases where doing the right thing may be more difficult than doing nothing at all. As I have always told me kids, sometimes there is no reward for doing the right thing, and sometimes you catch heck for it, but that you get to maintain your self-respect.


#11    joc

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 11:35 PM

View PostNikkiAidyn, on 22 November 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I like how you put it, Moonshine, but it does sound a bit like wishful thinking. We really have no choice but to be good anymore, unless you wish to go to prison. There are many people that would rather live out their darkest fantasies but won't because of the consequences. Without law and moral I bet most of us would go back to the primitive ways that still lurk in our minds. It would be way easier to fall to evil to accomplish things than go about it the honest way.
There are plenty of people who would rather live out their darkest fantasies but won't because of the consequences. But, there are an awful lot of people who do and they are dissuaded none by prison.  I also think that you are misjudging the 'primitive ways' that still lurk in our minds.  The primitive ways were just that primitive...they consisted of hunting and eating and staying alive from both the elements and the food chain of which we were a part of.  But the evilness of man I think began the way the Bible describes it...please do not misunderstand me...I don't believe the literalness of all that  but there are elements of truth in all of the scriptures, bible, koran, etc.   Specifically what I am talking about is the jealousy part.  In the bible Cain killed his brother Able because he was jealous...and it was only when man became a social creature that the real evils of man began.

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#12    redhen

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 05:24 AM

View Postjoc, on 22 November 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

  But the evilness of man I think began the way the Bible describes it...please do not misunderstand me...I don't believe the literalness of all that  but there are elements of truth in all of the scriptures, bible, koran, etc.   Specifically what I am talking about is the jealousy part.  In the bible Cain killed his brother Able because he was jealous...and it was only when man became a social creature that the real evils of man began.

I think you will find this talk interesting. http://ww3.tvo.org/v...jordan-peterson

A professor and clinical psychologist talks about the nature of evil. Like you, he also draws upon ancient sources like Genesis.

His description of evil is as a "warped, demonic aesthetic" which stems from selfishness and arrogance. Pretty loaded terminology from a secular academic and mental health professional.

enjoy

Edited by redhen, 23 November 2012 - 05:24 AM.


#13    behavioralist

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:19 AM

Evil is what we nurture when we allow our masters' applied threats (fear of failing to be worth enslaving)

to drive us into the retreat where we believe that noble winds elevated these masters above us.

That retreat is thought, as thought is when thinking has become a voice of self.

---my last subject, today's, said she was fifteen when she vanished into her head,

and that until our session she had not realized that she had ever lived in the actual world;

or that children and animals are perpetually doing so.

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Credulousness is when the process of being made more useful to duplicitous exploiters leaves us presuming to have become superior. Something is growing that is killing the mind; thereby orphaning the children in one's very care.
Learning, if not credulous, is always growing. Teaching is always degenerating. Glibness is a vice in either case, the former because one will wish one had said more, and the latter because one will admire one's rubbish unto death.

#14    joc

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:40 PM

View Postredhen, on 23 November 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

I think you will find this talk interesting. http://ww3.tvo.org/v...jordan-peterson

A professor and clinical psychologist talks about the nature of evil. Like you, he also draws upon ancient sources like Genesis.

His description of evil is as a "warped, demonic aesthetic" which stems from selfishness and arrogance. Pretty loaded terminology from a secular academic and mental health professional.

enjoy
No, he is not like me!  I am not 'drawing upon ancient sources like Genesis' to explain evil.  You missed my point.   My point was that Evil was not a typical mindset of  Primitive Humans.  Primitive Humans were too busy surviving really to do much 'harm' to each other in the way that Modern Humans do.  My point was that Societal Evolution, not Primitiveness, is responsible for the Evil of Humans.   I don't believe in demons.  My citing of Cain and Able was to that point...when Man became 'civilized' then Jealousy arose as a Human Emotion and much of the Evil of Ancient Civilizations was perpetrated by that.  That was my whole point.  But, since I did the taboo thing and brought the Bible into the discussion...consider Sodom and Gommorah.   Sexual deviancy beyond the pale...father rapers...mother rapers...child rapers...no consideration for 'personal space'.
Primitive Humans were not like that.  It is civilization that created Evil...not Primitiveness...that is my whole point.

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#15    araxia

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 02:05 PM

View PostNikkiAidyn, on 22 November 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

There is no doubt that we all have light and dark in us. No one is completely pure, as no "evil" person is completely evil. Saying this, it's all about your personal perspective and what you would deem evil or good. I'm not saying that serial killers and those twisted sick people that do things that we cannot fathom doing should be considered in a merciful manner. Yes, people have done damnable things, countless times. I do think that the evil in those people has drowned out the good, but the good will always be there, even if it is but a spark. There is no good without bad, no bad without good. Even the "best" people are capable of sickening acts of evil.

WHAT IF YOU get serial killers of serial killers like DEXTER?

I believe sometimes people can use the darkness inside of them for GOOD THINGS instead of bad things, like Dexter said his dad said to him "he might as well kill those who deserve it, and take his tendencies to KILL out on those who do not deserve to live"...

what would you say to this? Something to think about for sure.

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