86 replies to this topic

[SolarPlexus]

Edited by libstaK, 19 April 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[SolarPlexus]

More clever PR warmongering. Not only does it helps facilitate foreign intervention (and ultimately neo-colonialism), but it also grants amnesty to NATO/Western crimes. I doubt we will ever see trial for Blair, Clinton, Bush, Albright etc and their corporate masters. Who's next? Sudan I guess.

[SolarPlexus]

I mean this is the same old story seen many times. This is how it begins. The marketing campaigns, NGOs, bypassing the UNSC by using "human rights", "democracy" and "right of self-determination" as leverage, no-fly zones, arming the opposition and providing them with logistics, and finally full-blown civil war engineered externally.

[WoIverine]

Hey Solar, how you doing man? Been a while!   I agree, the propaganda machine is old, and needs to stop.

[Corp]

SolarPlexus, on 17 April 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

More clever PR warmongering. Not only does it helps facilitate foreign intervention (and ultimately neo-colonialism), but it also grants amnesty to NATO/Western crimes. I doubt we will ever see trial for Blair, Clinton, Bush, Albright etc and their corporate masters. Who's next? Sudan I guess.

Can you point out where in the clip the call for Western intervention was?

[SolarPlexus]

It is embedded in the theme of the video. One surely wouldn't expect a neon sign. Jokes aside, it is fairly obvious. PR firms are paid to make viral videos like this (it's their job) and it's how it starts every time. Remember the picture that fooled the world.

[RavenHawk]

SolarPlexus, on 18 April 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

It is embedded in the theme of the video. One surely wouldn't expect a neon sign. Jokes aside, it is fairly obvious. PR firms are paid to make viral videos like this (it's their job) and it's how it starts every time. Remember the picture that fooled the world.

I doubt it is a predecessor for Western invasion.  Or are you for this dictator to remain in power?  If not, it is going to require someone external that can stop it.  Or are you saying that the atrocities are not happening?  You’re drinking the subliminal conspiracy koolaid.

Is that the crying baby from the rape of Nanking?

[Corp]

SolarPlexus, on 18 April 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

It is embedded in the theme of the video. One surely wouldn't expect a neon sign. Jokes aside, it is fairly obvious. PR firms are paid to make viral videos like this (it's their job) and it's how it starts every time. Remember the picture that fooled the world.

The video is calling attention to a brutal leader under who's rule there have been wipespread murders, many seemingly due to government orders. Are you saying this is a bad thing?

[SolarPlexus]

They *are* dictators and no one is claiming they're perfect. However western "imported democracy" often makes more damage in total than these dictators have had, with very few exceptions.

What can be said of the most recent foreign intervention, the Libya NATO bombing, which killed so many people indiscriminately as collateral damage and not to mention the staggering damage to infrastructure which will take decades to repair, inflicting even more damage to the Libyan citizen in the process. The spoils of war were hastily divided between the European powers and the Libyan people are now forgotten, left to manage themselves in the ruins, while tribes and former "rebels" now fight among themselves. Plus the consequences of DU are yet to be felt by the Libyan people, just as in Fallujah and (in lesser degree) Bosnia and Kosovo. If the West really cared about democracy and human life, it would not act so.

[Helen of Annoy]

Clever, yes, absolutely, but not warmongering at all. All of the dictators mentioned in the video were dictators and mass murderers and such should be stopped.

Also, Solar, there was no civil war in ex-Yugoslavia, that definition of Serbian aggression on its neighbouring, independent countries is wrong and fine example of imperialistic and warmongering attitude.
I can’t wait to elaborate it to the last disgusting detail, just ask and I’ll accommodate you with pleasure only a survivor who had their place in mass grave reserved can feel.


Dictators don’t just stop, they really must be stopped. If US and NATO can and want to help, great. (I’m aware the reason for interventions is not humanitarianism but politics and profit, but as long as the outcome is beneficial for people I don’t care for motives, to be honest.)



Edit for grammar, I forgot English for a moment. Happens when something annoys me thoroughly.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 18 April 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[RavenHawk]

SolarPlexus, on 18 April 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

They *are* dictators and no one is claiming they're perfect. However western "imported democracy" often makes more damage in total than these dictators have had, with very few exceptions.

What can be said of the most recent foreign intervention, the Libya NATO bombing, which killed so many people indiscriminately as collateral damage and not to mention the staggering damage to infrastructure which will take decades to repair, inflicting even more damage to the Libyan citizen in the process. The spoils of war were hastily divided between the European powers and the Libyan people are now forgotten, left to manage themselves in the ruins, while tribes and former "rebels" now fight among themselves. Plus the consequences of DU are yet to be felt by the Libyan people, just as in Fallujah and (in lesser degree) Bosnia and Kosovo. If the West really cared about democracy and human life, it would not act so.

It seems that you want it both ways.  If we turn our backs then we are condemned for being uncompassionate.  If we do something about it, then we are condemned for being uncompassionate.  

People die in war.  That may be sad but it is a reality.  That is the way of the world.  When cutting out the cancer, healthy tissue is sacrificed.  In Libya, there weren’t that many “so many” indiscriminately killed.  With precision bombing, there isn’t.  We could go back to carpet bombing if you like??  

The damage to the infrastructure helped the rebels by keeping the government from mobilizing.  

What are the spoils of war that the West are divvying up?  

What do you think happened in Fallujah?  I ask that because my brother was there.  

You’re putting too much responsibility on the West.  The real question is now that Kaddafi is gone, why are tribes and rebels fighting among themselves?  If they cared, they would not act so.  

Now, I agree with your concern with the aftermath.  That part the West’s plan has not been figured out yet.  Politically, they have no will.  The first 3 phases of OP Plan 1003 (invasion of Iraq) were masterful and text book.  But Phase IV was lacking.  The three things that guarantee victory are 1) boots on the ground, 2) an adequate multigenerational plan of occupation, and 3) the will to see it through, to do whatever is necessary.  

Democracy is learned by watching it in action, not by letting the indigenous try to figure it out alone.

[Corp]

Still find it weird that a video about a Sudanese dictator is posted and then the OP rants about how evil the West is. How about, oh I don't know, condemning the actual dictator? It's like posting a video about hockey and then talking about how horrible football is.

[The New Richard Nixon]

Ex Communist eastern European countries are always anti. Serbia probably had a arms deal with Gaddaffi or oil deal, the latter is my guess

[Helen of Annoy]

Erix, on 18 April 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Ex Communist eastern European countries are always anti. Serbia probably had a arms deal with Gaddaffi or oil deal, the latter is my guess

Former Yugoslavia supplied both Libya and Iraq with arms. After Yugoslavia fell apart, Serbia kept that business going, mostly because so called strategic industries in former Yugoslavia were either physically situated in Serbia, either under their control.
Crvena Zastava is manufacturer of popular Kalashnikovs and infamous Yugo cars, guess what they could sell abroad
Sometimes for money, sometimes for oil. Well, they have to make a living, that’s not the problem really. The problem is the mentality deeply rooted among Serbian nationalists. They are used to moan how victimized they are and at the same time how dangerous and unforgiving "managers of the Universe" as we mockingly say they are. Quite schizophrenic, if you ask me.
It’s the consequence of the forced unification politics, that insisted on Serbifying everyone else until Yugoslavia is transformed into Greater Serbia. That process required sanctification of one, Serbian nation, and demonizing everyone else.
Long story short: naturally, it finally failed.

Now the profitable arms deals with egomaniacs like Gaddafi and Saddam are gone too, in a country with crumbling economy that equals disaster, and Russian brothers, who declaratively love Serbia so much, are not yet seen rushing to help. At least they haven’t sold anything to Ottomans like few centuries back. Probably because there are no Ottomans anymore.

Ah, the history. Teacher to some, source of frustration to others.



Edit: I have to go now, I’ll definitely be back tomorrow to see how this lovely thread is doing.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 18 April 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[Ccel]

SolarPlexus, on 17 April 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Wait what????
American Indians erased from planet by Americans
Vietnam 5 million dead by Americans.
Japanese hundreds of thousands, 2 nukes by Americans.
Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia, god knows how many dead.
Serbia thousands dead from bombing and murder.
And not 1 American president?!?

classic western propaganda