86 replies to this topic

[SolarPlexus]

Helen of Annoy, on 18 April 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Dictators don’t just stop, they really must be stopped.

Repeat after me

RavenHawk, on 18 April 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Democracy is learned by watching it in action, not by letting the indigenous try to figure it out alone.

Oh boy I can't wait for the entire world to taste the fruits of western imported democracy and humanitarianism. Scary s***.

Erix, on 18 April 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Ex Communist eastern European countries are always anti. Serbia probably had a arms deal with Gaddaffi or oil deal, the latter is my guess

We also eat kittens.

[MichaelW]

Ccel, on 18 April 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

American Indians erased from planet by Americans

Actually, there are many full blooded Native Americans living in the US with full rights.

Quote

Vietnam 5 million dead by Americans.

Actually, you can't attribute all the deaths directly to Americans. The South Vietnamese and North Vietnamese were far more murderous than you attribute Americans to be.

Quote

Japanese hundreds of thousands, 2 nukes by Americans.

See Rape of Nakning as well as various other Japanese war crimes.

Quote

Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia, god knows how many dead.

Yes, every single death is caused by Americans. I am also a teapot.

Quote

Serbia thousands dead from bombing and murder.

Thousands? You're kidding me right? Thousands were killed im bombings and murders by Serbians. Ever heard of Srebrenica? Sarajevo? Hundreds of people killed in those two actions alone.

Quote

And not 1 American president?!?

Tell me, or rather lie to me, what has Barack Obama done to deserve a place on here? Has any American committed genocide? No. Hitler, Milosevic and Stalin have.

Quote

classic western propaganda

*snip*

Edited by Saru, 19 April 2012 - 01:18 PM.
Removed personal insults

[and then]

SolarPlexus, on 18 April 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

Repeat after me



Oh boy I can't wait for the entire world to taste the fruits of western imported democracy and humanitarianism. Scary s***.



We also eat kittens.

Perhaps you prefer the fruits of totalitarian states like those in the middle east or the old communist system?  I realize that the West is far from perfect but exactly what did they do to piss in your wheaties?  I've noted with mild amusement that a couple of posters from your region have a similar disdain for the West in general.  My grasp of recent history is a bit vague but did the West not recently stop a genocide in your part of the world?  I am not trying to pick a fight, I just don't understand the context or why the latent anger.  Maybe you could enlighten?  Thanks in advance (unless you flame me)

[RavenHawk]

SolarPlexus, on 18 April 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

Oh boy I can't wait for the entire world to taste the fruits of western imported democracy and humanitarianism. Scary s***.

Then do you want home-grown/imported dictatorships, terrorism, and/or anarchy?  American Hegemony may not be perfect, but I would think it’s the best that Mankind has to offer at this point in time.  This world is getting too small to leave belligerents alone to themselves.  Perhaps, now is the time to offer one of my favorite videos…



I think that people that have grown up in a dictatorship or a theocracy such as Islam won’t be able to comprehend what that clip says unless they have someone to emulate.  So yeah, it is kind a scary pushing beyond one’s comfort zone.

This world is a balance.  A balance between yin and yang, heat and cold, dark and light, or good and evil.  The answer to Islam and Oligarchy is American *STYLE* of Democracy or Republic.  That is why that Americanism will continue to struggle against the Dark Energy in this world.  I realize that that is an attitude that borders on arrogance, but you are intelligent enough to make the choice yourself.

[Ccel]

MichaelW, on 19 April 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

*snip*

Typical arrogance of the west, as expected... you think youre the world but you are in a minority. Dont worry after the American dream ends the American nightmare begins, so thankfully youll reap the misery your leaders have sown across the globe....

[SolarPlexus]

RavenHawk, on 19 April 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

Then do you want home-grown/imported dictatorships, terrorism, and/or anarchy?

and then, on 19 April 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

Perhaps you prefer the fruits of totalitarian states like those in the middle east or the old communist system?

Home-grown dictatorship or imported democracy. An appropriate consolidation of the subject at hand Obviously neither is ideal. Which would be a "lesser evil" ? I guess we all have our opinions on that. As far as history is concerned, economic-imperial interventions have often produced greater destruction in total, with very few exceptions.

RavenHawk, on 19 April 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

American Hegemony may not be perfect, but I would think it’s the best that Mankind has to offer at this point in time.

A disturbing sentiment. Hopefully we could soon have a multipolar world.

RavenHawk, on 19 April 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

This world is at balance.

Quite the opposite. Today NATO is more than 60 years old, and it came a long way. From a defense alliance established during the Cold War, to an aggressive alliance for military interventions. At this time, NATO is the only force in the world to conduct this type of military campaigning. Here is an appropriate quote from La Terreur Americaine (2003), translated: "The American terror , in its current form, is the result of an imbalance between world powers after the demise of the socialist block. America, as the only real superpower, and before the balance is restored, takes what it can, where it can and when it wants, choosing no means, while also falsifying modern events in an Orwellian manner absent of moral standards, creating a perversely fictional account of history... " In common terms, when cat is away mice will play.

[Helen of Annoy]

SolarPlexus, on 18 April 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

Repeat after me



Oh boy I can't wait for the entire world to taste the fruits of western imported democracy and humanitarianism. Scary s***.



We also eat kittens.

There’s no shame in repeating the truth, especially if you came to the same conclusions on your own before.
Slobodan Milosevic was a dictator, war criminal, common criminal, insane, self-destructive and on top of it all, not a free man. He was tied by business and politics with the same forces you’re imagining you’re fighting against.

Also, your shamelessly, bizarrely exaggerated number of bombing victims in Serbia disgust me.  
Learn your history, those who don’t are doomed to repeat it. Only this time you won’t get to repeat the slaughtering and real bombings people like you afflicted to Croatia and Bosnia. Chetnik hoof will never step on our soil again. Even if my country was not a member of NATO, which, thank god, it finally is.

So keep the good work, Solar. And your alter Ccel too. Don’t you know it’s dishonest and pathetic to post under more than one identity?
Let the UM see what kind of mentality is holding Serbia hostage of its own delusions.    

You accuse the West of precisely the same things your political option tried and failed to do. Hypocrisy or ignorance?

[SolarPlexus]

Helen of Annoy, on 19 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Slobodan Milosevic was a dictator, war criminal, common criminal, insane, self-destructive and on top of it all, not a free man. He was tied by business and politics with the same forces you’re imagining you’re fighting against

We all have our opinions. Most Serbs, myself included, lived much better under Milosevic than today. The euro-fanatical vassal regime we've had since then has proven to be much more fatal to our country.

Helen of Annoy, on 19 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Also, your shamelessly, bizarrely exaggerated number of bombing victims in Serbia disgust me.

What numbers?

Helen of Annoy, on 19 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Learn your history, those who don’t are doomed to repeat it. Only this time you won’t get to repeat the slaughtering and real bombings people like you afflicted to Croatia and Bosnia. Chetnik hoof will never step on our soil again.

Well that was... passionate. If you suffered in the Yugoslav wars I am sorry, but we all did. I'm neither a "chetnik" nor someone who has "slaughtered in Bosnia", your anger is misplaced.

Helen of Annoy, on 19 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Even if my country was not a member of NATO, which, thank god, it finally is.

Well what can I say. Have fun. After all, you have a tradition to uphold, siding with eh... nevermind. Personally I could never be a part of such a criminal organization.

Helen of Annoy, on 19 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

So keep the good work, Solar. And your alter Ccel too. Don’t you know it’s dishonest and pathetic to post under more than one identity?

Come again?  

Helen of Annoy, on 19 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

You accuse the West of precisely the same things your political option tried and failed to do. Hypocrisy or ignorance?

What is my political option, what are you on about here?? The West is once again on a neo-colonial spree, I only accuse it of causing more harm than resident home-grown dictatorships they've been replacing.

EDIT: grammar

Edited by SolarPlexus, 19 April 2012 - 06:58 PM.

[Helen of Annoy]

SolarPlexus, on 19 April 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

We all have our opinions. Most Serbs, myself included, lived much better under Milosevic than today. The euro-fanatical vassal regime we've had since then has proven to be much more fatal to our country.

I know many Serbs. You are the only one unaware that Serbian standard of living in ex-Yugoslavia was destroyed by Milosevic’s idiotic destructive politics.
SANU (Serbian Academy of Science and Arts) with Greater Serbian (or chetnik, seems you don’t know what chetnik is) ideologists like Dobrica Cosic laid out the plan, Milosevic carried it out. It was continuous operation ever since Rankovic (head of UDBA, the murderous organization within Communist Party), only it was kept under the table during Tito. Milosevic’s cabal wrongly assessed it was time to come openly with Serbization of Yugoslavia.
Just ask, I will explain it all to you. Seems like you are in desperate need of some facts.

Quote

What numbers?

“Thousands” you mention, and that exist only in your shameless imagination, while four Chinese in Chinese embassy were the largest group that was hit by US bombs, and they wouldn’t be hit if they were not playing Austin Powers in Serbia.

Quote

Well that was... passionate. If you suffered in the Yugoslav wars I am sorry, but we all did. I'm neither a "chetnik" nor someone who has "slaughtered in Bosnia", your anger is misplaced.

If you were sorry, you wouldn’t be spewing your Seseljesque propaganda here.
If you agree with murderers, you are not much better than them.
And why are you ashamed of chetniks? Weren’t they freedom fighters according to latest fashion in Serbia? Isn’t there a process to nullify the death penalty Mihailovic was sentenced to after WWII for collaboration with the Reich?

Quote

Well what can I say. Have fun. After all, you have a tradition to uphold, siding with eh... nevermind. Personally I could never be a part of such a criminal organization.

I know it confuses you. All Croats don't always choose the same side, but what each of us chooses, dies for it. Serbian tradition is completely the opposite. Which is nicely opportunistic, but somehow not fulfilling for people raised in my tradition.  
So, yes, tradition. And honour. Obligations and favours to return. At any cost.  
Don’t just be envious, you can watch and learn.
And it’s you that is the part of criminal organization, only you refuse to admit it to yourself. You know what happened, you know what is planned to happen, you know where your links and “wisdom” comes from. Tell your mentor to think about back up plan. You’ll need it, just like the last time.

Quote

Come again?  

I think you and Ccel are the same person. It’s quite obvious actually.
It’s also a matter of tradition, some see treachery as sign of weakness, like my culture does, some see it acceptable if not desirable.
So, let’s call it a cultural difference.

Quote

What is my political option, what are you on about here?? The West is once again on a neo-colonial spree, I only accuse it of causing more harm than resident home-grown dictatorships they've been replacing.

EDIT: grammar

Why do you hesitate to come open? You are clearly against Serbia as part of Europe, you feel pathological hatred against West, you see dictatorships more desirable than democracy... you probably, therefore, call yourself radikal, but the rest of the sane world call those fascists. (It's special kind of fascism, with heavy religious overtones, that's why commies called it "klerofašizam" - clergy based fascism. I will elaborate on request.)

And I disagree with your opinion on quality of western interventions as well as with your ability to assess them at all.
Because:
Your nostalgia for evil clown Milosevic takes away any moral right from you to accuse or even assess anyone else’s morality.
Your perception of Milosevic’s contribution to your country’s political or economic position shows you either don’t understand what quality of life is, either you have unusual and perverted idea of what a desirable life should look like, so again you can’t appoint yourself to judge what is better or worse for other nations, since you apparently want dictatorship, isolation, shame and poverty for your own nation.  

Think about it.
There's no shame in changing your mind if you realize there are good reasons to do so. You don't have to accept radikal ideas just because there's a competition in ultra-nationalism in your close circle of people. The world is much more than bunch of your friends and they are probably not as brave and cruel as they boast in their free time.
And guys that saw the war are probably lying to you, you know that. Don't let various Seseljs lead you to your death. Serbia can't afford another war and radikal politics will cause another war if you give them a chance.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 19 April 2012 - 08:27 PM.

[Helen of Annoy]

And I have to go now. It will be great pleasure to drop by again, tomorrow.

We should cover Serbian mercenary in Libya issue, though I must admit some Croats took the same job. Mostly artillery guys, probably because good portion of Gaddafi’s heavy guns were made in ex-Yu.
Similar to Iraq situation, Saddam loved those M-84 tanks. Same type that repeatedly pounded on the hospital in my home town.
How many Serbian town hospitals were bombed for months? None.
And thank god for that.
But you will not preach to me about right and wrong, at least not until you allow yourself to discover Milosevic ordered hospitals to be bombed and until you realize what these words “bombed the hospital” mean.

[The New Richard Nixon]

If you think Nato was evil, check out Japan's war crimes in WW2, there are some real horror stories like using human test subjects by using grenades and weapons on them. Also what about Saddam using gasses to kill thousands of Iraqi-Kurds, yet you blame NATO for the majority but I don't see you blaming Fascist organisations or corrupt leaders.

[RavenHawk]

SolarPlexus, on 19 April 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

Home-grown dictatorship or imported democracy. An appropriate consolidation of the subject at hand Obviously neither is ideal. Which would be a "lesser evil" ? I guess we all have our opinions on that.

It’s definitely not a lesser of two evils.  There is a clear difference.  If you lived better under Milosevic, one would have to wonder about you if you were inclined to choose dictatorship.  Perhaps that’s the environment you are familiar with so you really haven’t lived in true freedom??  And imported democracy would only be temporary.  I need to add that I use democracy as a generic term.  If you watched my clip, then you’d know that democracy is just as bad as any other form of Oligarchy.  I prefer Republic.  So it’s imported Republic.  The Founding Fathers of this nation were its intelligentsia.  If you understood that clip, you’d know what they went through to provide a government of laws for its people to live free.  That concept is uniquely American but not exclusively.  Now, Bechir has decimated the Sudanese intelligentsia.  That’s what dictators do to remain in control.  If we go in and take out Bechir then leave again, thinking that now the people can rule themselves would be folly.  The American people need to learn that.  If we go in to stop Bechir, we need to be prepared to stay several generations to allow the Sudanese intelligentsia to rebuild itself and in turn, build its own Republic.  And that would include fighting terrorists and rebels for a long time.  There is no other way for Sudan to find itself.  Freedom is not free.  

Quote

As far as history is concerned, economic-imperial interventions have often produced greater destruction in total, with very few exceptions.

The British Empire in India is the best example of success but you are wrong about there being few exceptions.  There have been a lot of failures but this is not a one shot deal.  The Dark Energy is constantly trying to tear things down.  And corruption is its favorite tool.  When there is not adequate oversight, it emboldens the next dictator to rise to power.  Too many times has the US just gone with the quick fix of stability instead of instilling true freedom.  I see Vietnam as a good example.  We have history to learn from and your attitude is proof that we haven’t.  That doesn’t mean we are wrong or evil, American Hegemony is still the best option.  Like I said, it is not perfect but we need to learn and correct our shortcomings.  It’s awfully hard to do though when we are struggling with socialism within our own government.

Quote

A disturbing sentiment. Hopefully we could soon have a multipolar world.

Ah, wouldn’t it be nice if everyone would play nice with everyone else.  It would be nice where the US doesn’t have to be the world’s police force.  But do you see either of those happening anytime soon?  With 7 billion people on this planet, you can’t make them all happy and if you learned from my clip, then you’d know that because of that, there will always be anarchy.  For bad or worse, American Hegemony has brought relative peace in these last 60 or 70 years.  I didn’t say conflict free but relative peace.  What drives American Hegemony isn’t conquest but stability and that hope for that proverbial multipolar world.

Quote

Quite the opposite. Today NATO is more than 60 years old, and it came a long way. From a defense alliance established during the Cold War, to an aggressive alliance for military interventions. At this time, NATO is the only force in the world to conduct this type of military campaigning. Here is an appropriate quote from La Terreur Americaine (2003), translated: "The American terror , in its current form, is the result of an imbalance between world powers after the demise of the socialist block. America, as the only real superpower, and before the balance is restored, takes what it can, where it can and when it wants, choosing no means, while also falsifying modern events in an Orwellian manner absent of moral standards, creating a perversely fictional account of history... " In common terms, when cat is away mice will play.

This is incorrect.  The reason that NATO is so aggressive is because it has to equally balance out the Dark Energy present.  It’s easier to see NATO because the forces of good are focused.  Conservation, Causality, and Entropy applies here as well.  The Dark Energy will continue to degrade societies and governments.  It will never stop egging on anarchy.  It will continue to curse the people with Ignorance and Apathy.  Only people that care about the future and that still have hope, will fight this Dark Energy.  And that is why NATO will continue to intervene.  It must continue to struggle to keep a balance.  Freedom can only be found when there is balance.  Now this doesn’t mean that NATO isn’t laced with corruption and lack of will.  Remember, it’s not perfect.  But without America in the mix this world would be worse off

[SolarPlexus]

Like I said before, for the majority of Serbian middle-class, myself included, life was much better under Milosevic than it is today under euro-vassals. Now let's shed some light on life in Libya under Gaddafi's regime. By chance I happen to have received an email in march 2011 signed by the ICOMOS president in Bosnia, describing social conditions under Gaddafi's rule (as she used to live there). Here is an excerpt, translated...

...

Did the Libyan citizen have any reason to rebel against the regime of Muammar al-Gaddafi? I think not.

If we look at the living standard of the Libyan people and the benefits offered by the government, they had little reason to do so.

They lived as demigods. Libya has 6,5 million people, and 14 million registered cars (!).

If a citizen desired to study abroad, he/she is to submit an application to the government which shall provide a flat, food, a car and a monthly 2300 American dollars scholarship.

In Libya water, electricity and gas are tax-free, while loans are given without interest. If, during a course of five years, one could not repay the debt, the government would either nullify it or would pay it for you. If one was to buy a car, he/she would provide 20-30% of the price, the rest being subsidized by the government. In Libya, for 10 American dollars you could buy 85 liters of gasoline or oil. In Libya food is nearly free, 10kg of bread (around 40 loafs) costs 0.15 American dollars. In Libya only foreigners do heavy (physical) work.

I used to live in Libya, in various towns, for over 10 years, and never have I seen a beggar. Libyans rarely work abroad, as there is no need to do so. In Libya, no citizen has ever been evicted or had property (like land or a motor vehicle) seized, because he/she could not have repaid the credit loan, a fact which couldn't be said for many of the so called democratic countries preying on Libya. To be honest, I pity the Libyan people because they will be transformed into a hired workforce, working for 100 American dollars whereas all these benefits will be abolished, only able to dream of their former care-free lifestyle.

A few facts about living in Libya under Gaddafi:

- interest-less credit loans;
- during one's studies, the government shall provide an average paycheck for the profession in question;
- if one couldn't find a job after graduating from college, the government shall provide an average paycheck for the profession in question;
- after achieving marital status, the government shall grant the couple a flat or a house;
- purchase of vehicles at factory price;
- they don't owe anyone a cent; (presumably Libya)
- the EU and US owe 200 billion American dollars to the Libyan government;
- free health care (one nurse per patient) and education;
- 25% of the people posses higher education. Is this one fact enough to destroy Libya?

...

[SolarPlexus]

Dear Helen of Annoy,

if you'd refrain from unrelated personal frustrations and ad hominem, I might find something of substance in your posts to respond to. If not, might be better to just send me a PM. Unlike yourself, I have no quarrel and will gladly discuss anything you had in mind. Peace

[SolarPlexus]

Erix, on 19 April 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

If you think Nato was evil, check out Japan's war crimes in WW2, there are some real horror stories like using human test subjects by using grenades and weapons on them.

I'm familiar with these experiments and I condemn the perpetrators. Ironically no western power found it worthy to intervene amid these events (Nanking massacre included) which is revealing. Today, when the socialist block is gone, military intervention is the staple of western foreign policy. Funny I know.

Erix, on 19 April 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

Also what about Saddam using gasses to kill thousands of Iraqi-Kurds, yet you blame NATO for the majority but I don't see you blaming Fascist organisations or corrupt leaders.

Assuming such alleged crimes happened, they fade in comparison with the results of decades-old western foreign policy.

Edited by SolarPlexus, 19 April 2012 - 11:04 PM.