17 replies to this topic

[J. K.]

Directing the question toward Christians, what would make you stop believing in God?  Feel free to answer in two different ways:  basing a decision on existing observable evidence, or basing a decision on any evidence you could witness with a time machine?

I can't come up with anything that I've yet observed, and I'm not sure what it would take to cause me to disbelieve in God.

As for witnessing history: I would go to the resurrection.  If the resurrection did not occur, only then would I change my mind.

So what are your ideas?

[spud the mackem]

Sorry cant answer this,being agnostic...cheers

[JayMark]

spud the mackem, on 17 April 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Sorry cant answer this,being agnostic...cheers

It dosen't mean you can't have an opinion about it. Just sayin'...

What I would say about it is that it could simply be out of a lack of agreement with the whole vision of a God proposed by whatever the religion is.

For instance, I do not agree with the definition of God by the Catholic church (and many other religions as a matter of fact) but still think that there is more to this reality than the physical universe.

So in conclusion, I have my own personal views about it. I do beleive in something but do not fully agree with any religious system that I know of. I refer to myself as being a "free thinker".

[SolarPlexus]

I don't think anything could cause me to disbelieve in God. I am an Orthodox but many of my beliefs touch on Buddhism as well. I do not think of God in a traditional Christian sense though, I think of it more as a proto-energy or collective "living energy", similar to a Pantheist.

Edited by SolarPlexus, 17 April 2012 - 08:47 PM.

[JayMark]

SolarPlexus, on 17 April 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

I think of it more as a proto-energy or collective "living energy"

That is quite the way I see it as well.  

[spud the mackem]

Good posts above,there is definitely a "force",which we know little about,but I have always thought that this force is busy controlling the universe,and would not have time to bother with beings like us....UNLESS we are a deliberate experiment...Thats only my opinion...Others are entitled to believe in what they want ,to which I have no objection ,everyman to his own...live and let live...cheers

[Realm]

Faith is believing without knowing. Absolutely nothing could make me stop believing.

[Leave Britney alone!]

I will never stop believing but just believe a little different, or even a lot different, from what I believed before.

Christianity works for me but so do parts of other paths as I learn more. Taking them all as part of my growth and leaving behind what does not work. Most of what does not work for me is simply the tendency that some have that claims that there is only one right way to do things, that they know it, and if others disagree they are wrong.

Everyone has to find what works for them and if that means buying wholesale someone else's idea or blindly believing without question what they grew up with or were later taught then there is nothing wrong with that, for them, but that wouldn't work well for me.

Surprisingly I retain many of my core beliefs from my youth but they have been radically supplemented by all I have learned since that makes sense too.

Edited by Unseelie, 18 April 2012 - 06:45 AM.

[JayMark]

spud the mackem, on 17 April 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Good posts above,there is definitely a "force",which we know little about,but I have always thought that this force is busy controlling the universe,and would not have time to bother with beings like us....UNLESS we are a deliberate experiment...Thats only my opinion...Others are entitled to believe in what they want ,to which I have no objection ,everyman to his own...live and let live...cheers

What if WE are part of this force and all controlling this universe in our collective unconscious? If there is such a force I don't think it's separate from us but rather entangled to everything thus it's not "careless" about us because we are part of it.

That's my beleif. I think that this "force" represents everything, us, matter, life, the universe and everything there is as a matter of fact.

Peace.

[Paranoid Android]

To stop me being a Christian, perhaps a text that is 100% proven to have been written circa AD35-40 from one person to another gloating about how they have tricked people into believing in Jesus, let's say Paul writing to his friend Timothy commending him about his ability to spread lies and falsehoods.  It would also have to be proven that this really was Paul's writing and not a contemporary forgery, though the existence of such a 1st Century document in the first place would give cause for thought.

That said, this would not stop me believing in God.  I would still believe in God, just not in Jesus.  I have no idea what would stop me believing in a creator.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 18 April 2012 - 03:25 PM.

[karmakazi]

I don't think that there is anything that would cause me to stop believing there is a different kind of existence beyond the physical reality that we currently know or that there is a collective unconsciousness, or that there is some manner of omnipotent being beyond our comprehension, possibly the source of physical existence (in a fabric sort of way, not a creator sort of way).

If there is a being who in whatever way is the structure for the physical realm, no method of discovery originating from the phsyical realm would be able to accurately detect it as anything more than the physical components which are themselves observable, so it isn't possible to disprove to me that this possibility exists, with any amount of pragmatism or supposed logic

However, I think it highly unlikely that "god" as described by most religions exists with the one exception of Jesus' descriptions of the father and the kingdom of god, with the caveat that he was speaking in terms that his audience (or possibly he himself) could understand and relate to.  What he describes, in my opinion, is different from the god of the old testament though he references that god in order to make the concept relatable.  It seems he far more often uses the term 'father' and for me it feels a better and more accurate description if thinking of the universe as proceeding from the substance of god to even come into being, the universe being the child and the father being incomprehensible to the child except through certain revelations.

J. K., on 17 April 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

As for witnessing history: I would go to the resurrection.  If the resurrection did not occur, only then would I change my mind.

I'm questioning this only because I'm not sure I understand what you are saying - If Jesus had existed and did everything else stated, but did not rise from the dead or maybe wasn't even crucified, you would no longer believe in him / god?

[Paranoid Android]

karmakazi, on 18 April 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

I'm questioning this only because I'm not sure I understand what you are saying - If Jesus had existed and did everything else stated, but did not rise from the dead or maybe wasn't even crucified, you would no longer believe in him / god?

Hi Karmakazi,

I know you did not ask me this question, but as a Christian I think I can answer.  In essence, it is essential in Christian doctrine for Christ to have been raised from the dead.  It is perhaps the most important part of our theology.  Paul, writing in 1 Corinthians 15, says that without the resurrection everything we believe in is all in vain (verse 14) and furthermore those of us who believe this should be pitied above all other people (verse 19).  If Christ did not resurrect then he did not bring the hope of our resurrection, and therefore cannot have been what the Bible portrays him to be.  Hence he was not God and cannot be viewed as God.  

If a time machine were built and we could go back to the time that Jesus was crucified and it was shown that he did not resurrect then the core of Christianity is shot to pieces and those who adhere to that belief should be pitied for such a misplaced trust.

Just thought I'd share.

~ PA

edit: when I started this post, no one was in this thread, but it appears J.K has just begun replying to you, it'll be interesting to see his point of view

double edit:  lol, seems like J.K got his post in before my first edit, and he said what I said in a much more concise manner than I could

Edited by Paranoid Android, 18 April 2012 - 07:23 PM.

[spud the mackem]

JayMark, on 18 April 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

What if WE are part of this force and all controlling this universe in our collective unconscious? If there is such a force I don't think it's separate from us but rather entangled to everything thus it's not "careless" about us because we are part of it.

That's my beleif. I think that this "force" represents everything, us, matter, life, the universe and everything there is as a matter of fact.

Peace.

Everyone has an opinion,you have yours I've got mine,but what if we are both wrong ?..May the Force be with you..

[J. K.]

karmakazi, on 18 April 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

I'm questioning this only because I'm not sure I understand what you are saying - If Jesus had existed and did everything else stated, but did not rise from the dead or maybe wasn't even crucified, you would no longer believe in him / god?

Yes, that is correct.  For me, the crucifixion and the resurrection are the linchpins of Christianity.  Without the redemption from sin and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then the majority of the New Testament would be false, and Christianity would be non-existent.  (I know that many think it is already false and baseless, but that topic is found elsewhere.)

[JayMark]

spud the mackem, on 18 April 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

Everyone has an opinion,you have yours I've got mine,but what if we are both wrong ?..May the Force be with you..

Dosen't mean we can't discuss about our beleifs like so.

Wrong? I don't think there is such a thing as a good or bad beleif per se. It all depends on how you feel about it and how you live it through your everyday life.

You express yours, which isn't too far from mine as a matter of fact, so I simply gave you insight on my beleif concerning a specific part of yours. That's the whole point of discussing beleifs no?

Not trying to disprove anything here. And I am not trying by any way to tell you that yours is wrong. I'm just discussing it with you. No harm ever intended.

Peace to you as well my brother.

Edited by JayMark, 18 April 2012 - 08:06 PM.