167 replies to this topic

[Ben Masada]

REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

Replacement Theology is as old as Christianity itself, considering that the etimology of the expression acquired its real meaning with the rise of Christianity.

Some people object to the focusing on Christianity for the reason why Replacement Theology originated, because the Jewish People was not the only ancient people with the original claim to be God's chosen People.

It's true that a few other ancient peoples upheld the same claim, but there was never one to rise with the claim that a people had been replaced by another as God's chosen People.

Christianity became the first religious organization to rise with the claim that a change had occurred in the designs of God, which would
define the rejection of the Jewish People, and resplacement with Christianity.

The classical NT document, which would give rise to this Christian policy is found in Galatians 4:21-31.

Paul would compare God's Covenant with the Jewish People as Hagar, who was Sara's slave girl, and the Jews as her son, who was rejected even to share with Isaac, the inheritance of Canaan. On
the other hand, he compares Christianity to Sara and Christians to her son Isaac.

To conclude, Paul appeals to cast out the slave girl together with her son for the obvious reason that Israel, the Jewish People, would never be an heir with the son of the one born free.

That's the picture of Replacement Theology and not simply a people claiming Divine election. A group of Interfaith Scholars have classified Replacement Theology as a kind of Antisemitism.

Ben

[Copen]

Ben Masada, on 18 April 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

Replacement Theology is as old as Christianity itself, considering that the etimology of the expression acquired its real meaning with the rise of Christianity.

Some people object to the focusing on Christianity for the reason why Replacement Theology originated, because the Jewish People was not the only ancient people with the original claim to be God's chosen People.

It's true that a few other ancient peoples upheld the same claim, but there was never one to rise with the claim that a people had been replaced by another as God's chosen People.

Christianity became the first religious organization to rise with the claim that a change had occurred in the designs of God, which would
define the rejection of the Jewish People, and resplacement with Christianity.

The classical NT document, which would give rise to this Christian policy is found in Galatians 4:21-31.

Paul would compare God's Covenant with the Jewish People as Hagar, who was Sara's slave girl, and the Jews as her son, who was rejected even to share with Isaac, the inheritance of Canaan. On
the other hand, he compares Christianity to Sara and Christians to her son Isaac.

To conclude, Paul appeals to cast out the slave girl together with her son for the obvious reason that Israel, the Jewish People, would never be an heir with the son of the one born free.

That's the picture of Replacement Theology and not simply a people claiming Divine election. A group of Interfaith Scholars have classified Replacement Theology as a kind of Antisemitism.

Ben

I realize there are Christians who believe in Replacement Theology; but they have had to ignore a lot of scripture to come up with that falsehood. Just because someone is blind does not mean they are dead. The Jews have been blinded by God until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in. He uses the example of an olive tree which represented the Jews and that the Gentiles are a wild branch that has been grafted in. The main olive tree did not die. The wild stock in living in it.

Abraham's Egyptian slave who bore his first son (according to the Bible) is a symbol of the LAW and how impossible it is to be saved by the LAW. Sarah is a symbol of GRACE. From Moses to Jesus and everybody in between they were under the LAW. None of them were saved by the LAW. They were saved - - - - - - but not by the LAW. (Romans 5: 20) When the LAW entered it only made sin increase. Where sin increased, GRACE did much more abound. They didn't know about this GRACE until Jesus came; but that is the only avenue they were ever saved.  When Jesus paid the required price (the shedding of spotless blood of a Lamb) then this GRACE was finished. Jesus was as good as sacrificed (according to Revelations) from the foundations of the world. The actual payment did not come until the Old Testament was filled with fore shadows (prophecy in symbols and events) telling of Jesus' coming to pay for His elect.

The Jews were not replaced. They were blinded so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. When the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, then the Jews will be awakened. (Rom 11:7 & 25) -- concerning the gospel, the Jews are enemies for the Gentiles sake....but as touching the election, the Jews are beloved for the OT fathers' sake. (Romans 11: 1) Paul goes on to say, "Hath God cast away His people (the Jews)? GOD FORBID. FOR I ALSO AM AN ISRAELITE..." An elect number of Jews were blessed to see and understand GRACE. God reserved them for this because they would be writing New Testament scripture. God only dictates divine scripture to Jews.

There are 3 required holy days which have not yet been fulfilled. They are in Revelations. They will be fulfilled through the Jews as the previous 4 were.
God bless us all is my prayer

[Ben Masada]

Copen, on 20 April 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

I realize there are Christians who believe in Replacement Theology; but they have had to ignore a lot of scripture to come up with that falsehood. Just because someone is blind does not mean they are dead. The Jews have been blinded by God until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in. He uses the example of an olive tree which represented the Jews and that the Gentiles are a wild branch that has been grafted in. The main olive tree did not die. The wild stock in living in it.

Abraham's Egyptian slave who bore his first son (according to the Bible) is a symbol of the LAW and how impossible it is to be saved by the LAW. Sarah is a symbol of GRACE. From Moses to Jesus and everybody in between they were under the LAW. None of them were saved by the LAW. They were saved - - - - - - but not by the LAW. (Romans 5: 20) When the LAW entered it only made sin increase. Where sin increased, GRACE did much more abound. They didn't know about this GRACE until Jesus came; but that is the only avenue they were ever saved.  When Jesus paid the required price (the shedding of spotless blood of a Lamb) then this GRACE was finished. Jesus was as good as sacrificed (according to Revelations) from the foundations of the world. The actual payment did not come until the Old Testament was filled with fore shadows (prophecy in symbols and events) telling of Jesus' coming to pay for His elect.

The Jews were not replaced. They were blinded so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. When the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, then the Jews will be awakened. (Rom 11:7 & 25) -- concerning the gospel, the Jews are enemies for the Gentiles sake....but as touching the election, the Jews are beloved for the OT fathers' sake. (Romans 11: 1) Paul goes on to say, "Hath God cast away His people (the Jews)? GOD FORBID. FOR I ALSO AM AN ISRAELITE..." An elect number of Jews were blessed to see and understand GRACE. God reserved them for this because they would be writing New Testament scripture. God only dictates divine scripture to Jews.

There are 3 required holy days which have not yet been fulfilled. They are in Revelations. They will be fulfilled through the Jews as the previous 4 were.
God bless us all is my prayer

I agree with the grafting of Gentiles into the tree of Judaism, but only through conversion, according to Isaiah 56:1-8. Any other method, for instance, the one of Paul's, is vandalism of Judaism by Christianity.

This rationalization of yours about being saved by grace or by the Law, is too theoretical. Let us bring it down to reality in an example. Let us assume that you are saved by grace and I am saved by the Law. Since I have in mind to be saved by the Law, I have it in my heart not to transgress against it. Since you trust that you are saved by grace, you are not under the Law. Assuming that, one day, you break it. You are taken to Court and tell the judge that you have been saved by grace. Since I did not transgress the Law, I don't even have to be taken to Court. Now, tell me, how do you think will the verdict by the judge be, to justify or to condemn you for the transgression of the Law? Probably, you expect to be justified because, according to your religious preconceived notions, you are not under the Law but grace. You may think again but in jail. Why? Because grace has no chance where the Law must be observed. Since there is no society without law, grace becomes obsolete.
Ben

[Mr Walker]

Ben. I am probably not going to reply to  any more of you posts because I find them deliberatley, and unecessarily, confrontationist (my perception, i realise) but i would like to say this.

Neither god, nor I, are interested in whether you (or anyone else) is jewish,  christian, muslim or  of any other belief form or religion. God is "interested" in you as a human being.  How you are, inside and out. How you think, feel and, especially, act.

He wants you to be aware of him and to be connected to him, but only because he loves you and wants the best oucomes in life for you. I have no evidence from god that he particularly cares if you are; christian, jew, etc., as long as this allows you to really be one with him.

Only belief constructs which deny god and separate him from us by our conscious intent  are inhernlty limiting to a human being. Of course some are more creative and libersting than others and some work better in a practical sense but there is little to chose in this regard between the basic tenets of jusdaism and christianity.

[Jor-el]

Ben Masada, on 21 April 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

I agree with the grafting of Gentiles into the tree of Judaism, but only through conversion, according to Isaiah 56:1-8. Any other method, for instance, the one of Paul's, is vandalism of Judaism by Christianity.

This rationalization of yours about being saved by grace or by the Law, is too theoretical. Let us bring it down to reality in an example. Let us assume that you are saved by grace and I am saved by the Law. Since I have in mind to be saved by the Law, I have it in my heart not to transgress against it. Since you trust that you are saved by grace, you are not under the Law. Assuming that, one day, you break it. You are taken to Court and tell the judge that you have been saved by grace. Since I did not transgress the Law, I don't even have to be taken to Court. Now, tell me, how do you think will the verdict by the judge be, to justify or to condemn you for the transgression of the Law? Probably, you expect to be justified because, according to your religious preconceived notions, you are not under the Law but grace. You may think again but in jail. Why? Because grace has no chance where the Law must be observed. Since there is no society without law, grace becomes obsolete.
Ben

Isaiah 64:6

6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Romans 3:9-31

9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

The Law does not create righteous men, it serves to demonstrate our unrighteousness, for what man has upheld the law, completely and utterly, all his life without once falling to sin?

[Beckys_Mom]

Ben Masada, on 18 April 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY

Replacement Theology is as old as Christianity itself, considering that the etimology of the expression acquired its real meaning with the rise of Christianity.

Some people object to the focusing on Christianity for the reason why Replacement Theology originated, because the Jewish People was not the only ancient people with the original claim to be God's chosen People.

It's true that a few other ancient peoples upheld the same claim, but there was never one to rise with the claim that a people had been replaced by another as God's chosen People.

Christianity became the first religious organization to rise with the claim that a change had occurred in the designs of God, which would define the rejection of the Jewish People, and resplacement with Christianity.

Interesting OP Ben

Can you provide more information  on the   bolded  parts  of your post?  IE -  More about the other ancient people with the original claim to be Gods chosen...and  more info on the rejection of the Jewish people...  I feel this  is true...


Thanks

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 22 April 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[and then]

Beckys_Mom, on 22 April 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

Interesting OP Ben

Can you provide more information  on the   bolded  parts  of your post?  IE -  More about the other ancient people with the original claim to be Gods chosen...and  more info on the rejection of the Jewish people...  I feel this  is true...


Thanks

There is a significant part of the modern Christian church that adhere to this doctrine.  I believe it is un Biblical and dangerous.  God made an irrevocable contract with Abraham and I don't think He breaks His word.  The Jews/Israel  are still in God's plans for the end times and the world to come.  They are His chosen and have paid dearly for the privilege.

[Beckys_Mom]

and then, on 24 April 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

There is a significant part of the modern Christian church that adhere to this doctrine.  I believe it is un Biblical and dangerous.  God made an irrevocable contract with Abraham and I don't think He breaks His word.  The Jews/Israel  are still in God's plans for the end times and the world to come.  They are His chosen and have paid dearly for the privilege.

Thats nice thanks.. but I will wait and see what info Ben  posts  on Gods chosen.. It was him that raised it..  But hey thanks for the above and showing what you too beleive

[Ben Masada]

Mr Walker, on 22 April 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Ben. I am probably not going to reply to  any more of you posts because I find them deliberatley, and unecessarily, confrontationist (my perception, i realise) but i would like to say this.

Neither god, nor I, are interested in whether you (or anyone else) is jewish,  christian, muslim or  of any other belief form or religion. God is "interested" in you as a human being.  How you are, inside and out. How you think, feel and, especially, act.

He wants you to be aware of him and to be connected to him, but only because he loves you and wants the best oucomes in life for you. I have no evidence from god that he particularly cares if you are; christian, jew, etc., as long as this allows you to really be one with him.

Only belief constructs which deny god and separate him from us by our conscious intent  are inhernlty limiting to a human being. Of course some are more creative and libersting than others and some work better in a practical sense but there is little to chose in this regard between the basic tenets of jusdaism and christianity.

Mr. Walker, the point here is not from God to us but from us to God. The best way to serve God is to serve one another. What we are doing here is discussing what we think about God and how to live in harmony among ourselves. Perhaps, you are frustrated with and how the Bible speaks about the Jewish People. The men who wrote the Bible were inspired, but it was written in the human language. The problem is that you take the Scriptures literally, which becomes the reason for the contension between peoples. The problem between Judaism and Christianity was raised by Christianity which
rose after Judaism. It was not there before.
Ben

[Ben Masada]

Jor-el, on 22 April 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

Isaiah 64:6

6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Romans 3:9-31

9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

The Law does not create righteous men, it serves to demonstrate our unrighteousness, for what man has upheld the law, completely and utterly, all his life without once falling to sin?

There is an enormous difference between sin and insurrection. Sin is a mistake. We sin, and if we repent and obey, even if our sins are scarlet red they will become as white as snow. (Isa. 1:18,19) All we have to do is to repent and return to obedience of God's Law. Now, insurrection is to reject God' Law. That's what dooms one to separation from God. That's when we break God's Covenant. Every one sins, but not every one quits about God.
Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 26 April 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[J. K.]

I think that you might misunderstand the relationship between the Law and grace.  The following statements are made out of my understanding of Scripture.

Quote

This rationalization of yours about being saved by grace or by the Law, is too theoretical.

The Law exists to demonstrate that no man can obey all of the Law all the time.  The Law doesn't bring salvation; it only brings condemnation for which sacrifices had to be made.  Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, satisfying the condemnation of the Law for all time.  The sacrifice of Jesus was made through grace.

Quote

Let us bring it down to reality in an example. Let us assume that you are saved by grace and I am saved by the Law. Since I have in mind to be saved by the Law, I have it in my heart not to transgress against it. Since you trust that you are saved by grace, you are not under the Law.

Christians are not under the condemnation of the Law.  However, the guidelines for living a holy life, which are given in the New Testament, fulfill many of the requirements of the Law.  The Law emphasizes a holy life; so does Christianity.

Quote

Assuming that, one day, you break it. You are taken to Court and tell the judge that you have been saved by grace. Since I did not transgress the Law, I don't even have to be taken to Court.

How are you defining the Law in these statements?  The Laws found in the Old Testament, given to Moses by God for Israel; or the laws which the governments of our nations enforce?  Salvation by grace does not give freedom to break governmental law; instead, Christians are told to obey the laws of the government.

Quote

Now, tell me, how do you think will the verdict by the judge be, to justify or to condemn you for the transgression of the Law?

This sentence particularly confuses me, since our judges do not look to the Old Testament Law; they look to governmental law.

[Mr Walker]

Ben Masada, on 26 April 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

Mr. Walker, the point here is not from God to us but from us to God. The best way to serve God is to serve one another. What we are doing here is discussing what we think about God and how to live in harmony among ourselves. Perhaps, you are frustrated with and how the Bible speaks about the Jewish People. The men who wrote the Bible were inspired, but it was written in the human language. The problem is that you take the Scriptures literally, which becomes the reason for the contension between peoples. The problem between Judaism and Christianity was raised by Christianity which
rose after Judaism. It was not there before.
Ben

"My problem" is that you see a conflict between judaism and christianity. I do not. I see christianity as an extension/evolution  of judaism, which allowed god to develop a relationship with a much larger number of people, via a more "inclusive" theology and religion.

Judaism is a very difficult religion to live by, without a good cultural heritage in it to motivate one, but anyone from any background can convert to christianity, and live by its basic precepts, and that is why, historically, so many did so. it is perhaps the most accesible religion ever created. But more than that, both of these religions are just two of many ways for a person to come to god.

I do not even see the problem which preoccupies your mind. I could as easily have chosen judaism as christianity for my relationship with god (or muslim or buddhism ) but 95% of people where i live are christians, and the other 5% atheists, so i nominated/chose christianity.

But i live by the bible, both old and new testaments, adapting the old "rules" into the 21st century. Eg i freed my slaves long ago   but i dont eat pork, shell fish etc or any of the other proscribed food because medical science tells me they are not as healthy as a biblical diet. In addition i dont smoke drink or take drugs,  in order to enhance my physical relationship with god. I keep the sabbath from sunset fri to sunset sat, both as a day of rest and spiritual renewal and as a sign of my personal covenant with god.
Judaism's pre-eminent position, historically, is a matter of record and of pride. The jews transformed humanity and human history  One of my favourite books is "The gifts of the jews. How  a tribe of desert nomads changed the way every one thinks and feels." by Thomas Cahill

I have no problem with that. Christ was a jew. All the first christians were jews. That form of christianty is the most pure and uncorrupted form. But he was also a human being, and it is our humanity which counts in our relationship with god, not our relgion.


I just think your tone suggests anger born from something like envy or frustration a thow christianity, in your mind, has usurped the role of judaism.

I can understand that. My chosen form of christianity is followed by very few christians. It would be easy to get angry at catholics or even other protestant denominations who have changed the original biblical truths.

Easy, but pointless and non productive. What I have works for me, and enables a close interpersonal relationship with a real, powerful, and loving god. How can i be envious of any other form of faith.  It is not my place to make judgements on how others live with god. That is between them and god.

Edited by Mr Walker, 28 April 2012 - 08:04 AM.

[Bella-Angelique]

Ben Masada, on 18 April 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

A group of Interfaith Scholars have classified Replacement Theology as a kind of Antisemitism.

Buddhism which is a replacement theology of Hinduism does not dictate that Hindus be hated any more than Christianity as a replacement theology of the former pilgrimage based sects of ancient Israel require them to hate modern Jews (which is a replacement theology of the Hebrew beliefs of the ancient Pharisees).

I can only conclude that any scholars that determined Christianity is the practice of antisemitism were either consumed themselves with hatred towards Christians or consumed with politically correct appeasement.

[Ben Masada]

J. K., on 26 April 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

Quote

I think that you might misunderstand the relationship between the Law and grace.  The following statements are made out of my understanding of Scripture.

The Law was given by the grace of God. Read Psalm 119.

Quote

The Law exists to demonstrate that no man can obey all of the Law all the time.  The Law doesn't bring salvation; it only brings condemnation for which sacrifices had to be made.  Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, satisfying the condemnation of the Law for all time.  The sacrifice of Jesus was made through grace.

I disagree with you. IMHO, the Law exists to demonstrate that we cannot coexist peacefully in society without the Law.

Quote

Christians are not under the condemnation of the Law.  However, the guidelines for living a holy life, which are given in the New Testament, fulfill many of the requirements of the Law.  The Law emphasizes a holy life; so does Christianity.

The Law does not condemn. We condemn ourselves by transgressing the Law. The problem with the NT about the Law is that, since the Law was given to the world  through the Jewish People, Paul had to replace the Law in order to replace the People. That's what we call, Replacement Theology. (Gal. 4:21-31)

Quote

How are you defining the Law in these statements?  The Laws found in the Old Testament, given to Moses by God for Israel or the laws which the governments of our nations enforce?  Salvation by grace does not give freedom to break governmental law; instead, Christians are told to obey the laws of the government.

There is no difference. Laws, in general, are given for the common good of all peoples.

Quote

This sentence particularly confuses me, since our judges do not look to the Old Testament Law; they look to governmental law.

The general pattern of the laws is based in the Law given in the Tanach. In many countries, it is still a custom to swear with one's hand on the Bible, under  penalty of perjure, "to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth; so help me God."

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada, 02 May 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[J. K.]

Paul did not replace the law.  Instead, Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Jesus speaking in Matthew 5:17)

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.  (Galatians 3:10-14)