78 replies to this topic

[preacherman76]

About two-thirds of the way through the hearing, Hill admitted in open court something that no lawyer for the Obama campaign has ever admitted. Obama never furnished a true copy of his birth certificate to the New Jersey Secretary of State. Furthermore, the PDF file that the White House has served to the Internet since April 27, 2012, is not relevant to the case in any way.

Hill conceded this point after Apuzzo tried to call Brian Wilcox, an expert document analyst. He was ready to show that no one could rely on the PDF file as a substitute for a hard-copy long-form birth certificate. But Judge Masin said at once that neither he nor Secretary of State Kim Guadagno had ever seen a birth certificate, whether on paper, as a PDF file, or on the Internet. He told Apuzzo that calling Wilcox would be "premature."

Then Masin turned to Hill and asked her directly:

Is it your legal position that the document on the Internet is irrelevant to this case?

Hill replied, "Yes." Masin then asked:

And indeed you concede that Mr. Obama has not produced an alleged birth certificate to the Secretary of State.

Hill at first said, "It has been released nationally," but then admitted that she did not know personally that Obama had given any such document to the Secretary of State, nor did she intend giving such a document to the court today. But she also argued, after Judge Masin asked her repeatedly, that Obama need not produce any evidence at all.

Apuzzo told this Examiner during a recess in the hearing that this was the most stunning thing that any lawyer for Obama had ever admitted, in an Obama eligibility case or in any other case. When the hearing finally adjourned at 12:30 p.m., Apuzzo was confident of prevailing on this point. He observed that Hill, after objecting to everything that Apuzzo tried to introduce into evidence, offered no evidence on her own behalf and even admitted that the infamous PDF document was legally worthless.

A shocking turnabout

But the judge shocked Apuzzo when, at 6:26 p.m., Apuzzo opened his e-mail to find a message from Masin saying that the Obama campaign had prevailed on both points. Said the judge, in so many words:

As far as I'm concerned, Obama was born in Hawaii.

In fact, the initial decision says that Barack Obama had not

failed in any obligation to prove to theSecretary of State that he is qualified to hold the Presidency and that he is a “naturalborn Citizen” of the United States of America, as required by the United StatesConstitution.

Apuzzo could not explain how Judge Masin could rule that way, after observing in open court that neither Obama nor his surrogates had shown that he was born in Hawaii.

Within two hours, according to a deadline that Masin gave him, Apuzzo filed an exception to Masin's ruling. Apuzzo took exception to the following:

1.Judge Masin ruled that Obama was born in Hawaii with no evidence on record, after acknowledging that fact during the hearing.
2.Judge Masin ruled that Obama need not comply with statute to show that he is eligible, solely because he need not "consent" to someone circulating a nominating petition for him.
3.The judge suggested that Obama might have to show eligibility later. He laid no basis for such a ruling.
4.The judge misread the precedents and gave short shrift to the historical evidence that the Framers of the Constitution defined "natural-born citizen" as one born in-country to two citizen parents. Apuzzo devoted half of his 30-page exception to this analysis alone.
Apuzzo plans to appeal directly to the Appellate Division of the New Jersey Superior Court. He earlier told this Examiner that he was ready to argue before the State and even United States Supreme Courts if he had to.

.

Continue reading on Examiner.com Obama eligibility: NJ ALJ says Obama need not prove eligibility - Newark Essex County Conservative | Examiner.com http://www.examiner....y#ixzz1shiH7DtP

So she didnt exactly say it was a fake. She basicaly said it doesnt matter if its fake.

[preacherman76]

Wearer of Hats, on 21 April 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Other then MysteryX, does anyone really think that someone who wasn't an eligible American citizen, in this day and age, would be vetted by the Democrat party to run for president? And really, the GOP was and is desperate for anything to use against him - why haven't they kept upon this news like Dracula on a virgin?

For the first part, absolutly. Its much more easy to make sure the strings on your puppet work when you have a threat hold over his head.

For the second part, there is no GOP, there is only the establishment. They arent really against him at all.

[Tiggs]

preacherman76, on 21 April 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

So she didnt exactly say it was a fake. She basicaly said it doesnt matter if its fake.

She said that the Birth certificate was irrelevant to the case.

Something being irrelevant is not the same as something being Fake.

[FurthurBB]

Tiggs, on 21 April 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

She said that the Birth certificate was irrelevant to the case.

Something being irrelevant is not the same as something being Fake.

Shocking, you said the same thing that we said here, the PDF online is not in any way relevant.

[Chrlzs]

MysteryX - WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE that this story is true, and not just faked/twisted?  Frankly it reeks of hoax, and if you can't spot why.. well, I think the reflection on your 'research' ability is going to be very clear as this unfolds.

As for the mainstream media ignoring it, gee, maybe they have actually read the transcripts (if they exist) and/or looked at what was actually said, rather than fabricate    a story.

So show us the actual quotes, actual court transcripts..  It is patently obvious that the site being quoted is dedicated to the lame push to remove Obama, what's more if you follow the link back to the claimed 'Full Story', it is even more obviously anti-Obama and has EVEN LESS information - it is NOT a source at all.

Golly gee, why do you think that is?


BTW, a small technical point..  ANY image, any PDF is a 'fabrication', to some extent - it is NOT a perfect representation of a document and can never be.  And then the new OCR-capable PDF's do use extra compression/recognition techniques that alter the appearance of the image (which is a form of additional 'fabrication').  That's why there is a certification process - documents in themselves are not evidence - it is the content plus provenance plus chain of evidence.

I suspect, if this hate-story is even vaguely based on anything that was actually said, that it has been twisted to suit the agenda of the Obama-haters (hi, MysteryX!), and any court ruling will have treated it appropriately.  {Added - I see I was right.. there's a surprise}


So MysteryX - where are the actual transcripts???

Edited by Chrlzs, 22 April 2012 - 01:14 AM.

[Leonardo]

FurthurBB, on 21 April 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

Shocking, you said the same thing that we said here, the PDF online is not in any way relevant.

What Tiggs said was not "the same" as what preacherman said.

Tiggs made no reference to the legitimacy of the electronic copy of the birth certificate. The only meaning of his statement was that this evidence was of insufficient quality to be admissable in a court of law.

Preacherman, through his use of the word "fake", reinforced the idea the e-copy might be faked - and so what he said is pejudicial. It is the psychology of language that differentiates what Tiggs and preacherman said.

[Socio]

Quote

Taking an audacious and shocking angle against the constitutional eligibility mandate, Obama’s lawyer, Alexandra Hill, admitted that the image of Obama’s birth certificate was a forgery and made the absurd claim that, therefore, it cannot be used as evidence to confirm his lack of natural born citizenship status. Therefore, she argued, it is “irrelevant to his placement on the ballot”.

Hill went on to contort reasoning by implying that Obama needs only invoke his political popularity, not legal qualifications, in order to be a candidate.

Well this statement is a textbook example of Liberal Left logic it alone could be enough to give validity to the story.

[MysteryX]

Chrlzs, on 22 April 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

MysteryX - WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE that this story is true, and not just faked/twisted?  Frankly it reeks of hoax, and if you can't spot why.. well, I think the reflection on your 'research' ability is going to be very clear as this unfolds.

As for the mainstream media ignoring it, gee, maybe they have actually read the transcripts (if they exist) and/or looked at what was actually said, rather than fabricate    a story.

So show us the actual quotes, actual court transcripts..  It is patently obvious that the site being quoted is dedicated to the lame push to remove Obama, what's more if you follow the link back to the claimed 'Full Story', it is even more obviously anti-Obama and has EVEN LESS information - it is NOT a source at all.

Golly gee, why do you think that is?


BTW, a small technical point..  ANY image, any PDF is a 'fabrication', to some extent - it is NOT a perfect representation of a document and can never be.  And then the new OCR-capable PDF's do use extra compression/recognition techniques that alter the appearance of the image (which is a form of additional 'fabrication').  That's why there is a certification process - documents in themselves are not evidence - it is the content plus provenance plus chain of evidence.

I suspect, if this hate-story is even vaguely based on anything that was actually said, that it has been twisted to suit the agenda of the Obama-haters (hi, MysteryX!), and any court ruling will have treated it appropriately.  {Added - I see I was right.. there's a surprise}


So MysteryX - where are the actual transcripts???

Obama haters?  You got me confused with someone else. I'm a treason hater, I'm a communist hater, I'm a China and North Korea hater.

Most of you are a product of this generation (less than 25 years old) maybe I should add that to my hate list as well. Not for you personally mind you but for sheer stupidy.

The two videos I posted along with the developing story about Alexander Hill is more than enough for any rational person to see what is happening.

I'm not worried about the additional commentary that the intial story writer added. But nevertheless Alexander Hill said that the Obama birth certificate
in the PDF format was not a valid admissible piece of evidence for any court room. So by default she has completely underminded the whole purpose
of them creating a counterfiet that some CIA flunky or banker gangster forged.

Do you think I care about the outcome of the corruption in America. NO... I'm glad it is coming, when they start killing the herd maybe enough Americans will wake up and stop it. If Americans do not do something then, then I guess it is right and proper for America too cease to be a country of freedom, heading that direction real fast already.

America has 16 trillion dollars in debt which will cripple her ability to maintain the military. This means the conventional military force will go into rapid decline and decay in just the next few years. You have China that most likely will not provide any more major credit to the US, and Europe is on the brink of the dark ages economically. So what do you do with a 5 year window before America collapses forever, you start wars, break promises and get ready to destroy all your enemies. Don't you realize America is preparing for all out nuclear war against China, Russia and Pakistan if they do not agree to do it America's way. That is the last resort option, however it is an option they look at very seriously, they will go underground and will not shed one tear for any above ground.

If you took every country's nuclear weapons out of the world, or if some magical force removed all nuclear weapons then who would rule the world? China of course.

America will never be able to hold back China nor will America ever be able to repay her debt. America is a declining power because of complacency, poor education for the last two generations, also half of America prefers socialism. America has not been America for a long time already, I think Kennedy proved that really well with his own blood.

Many of you are debate queens for debate's sake alone, you strain over a tiny point that helps your particular position of debate like high school kids that have never experienced the real world. You get so caught up in the dotted "i"'s and crossed "t"'s you ignore the big piture of the house burning down all around you. That is what those first two videos in my first post is about, the bigger picture.

I hate the new world order planners and their agenda more than just about anything else, but people who cannot see the truth in plain sight are running a close second and you know I hope you just keep on debating until it ends.  

For those of you that know the truth about the birth cerificate and everything else keep on telling others and thanks.

Lastly for the treason lovers, I post videos and links to help those that are still teachable. Then I count on the debate queens to keep the thread going by provoking them a little before I leave. This increases the rankings and return links that search engines use.

Since this thread is nearly done, unless my provoking now keeps it going even after telling you what I'm doing, it really no longer matters for this thread. I will come back like I always do every 3 - 6 months to tell the new readers as well as the regulars here that did not hear it the last time.

My time never goes to waste. It amazes me the people that go to message board just to debate for debates sake. If you do not have a serious reason or passion to be here to say something, then you would be better off at the gym, walking the dog whatever, anything other than just debating for the sake of debating due to boredom. If you are here for passion and truth then get serious about the facts overall, not just your emotional Obama hater or birther comments.

Edited by MysteryX, 22 April 2012 - 10:50 AM.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

MysteryX, on 22 April 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Obama haters?  You got me confused with someone else. I'm a treason hater, I'm a communist hater, I'm a China and North Korea hater.

Most of you are a product of this generation (less than 25 years old) maybe I should add that to my hate list as well. Not for you personally mind you but for sheer stupidy.

The two videos I posted along with the developing story about Alexander Hill is more than enough for any rational person to see what is happening.

I'm not worried about the additional commentary that the intial story writer added. But nevertheless Alexander Hill said that the Obama birth certificate
in the PDF format was not a valid admissible piece of evidence for any court room. So by default she has completely underminded the whole purpose
of them creating a counterfiet that some CIA flunky or banker gangster forged.

Do you think I care about the outcome of the corruption in America. NO... I'm glad it is coming, when they start killing the herd maybe enough Americans will wake up and stop it. If Americans do not do something then, then I guess it is right and proper for America too cease to be a country of freedom, heading that direction real fast already.

America has 16 trillion dollars in debt which will cripple her ability to maintain the military. This means the conventional military force will go into rapid decline and decay in just the next few years. You have China that most likely will not provide any more major credit to the US, and Europe is on the brink of the dark ages economically. So what do you do with a 5 year window before America collapses forever, you start wars, break promises and get ready to destroy all your enemies. Don't you realize America is preparing for all out nuclear war against China, Russia and Pakistan if they do not agree to do it America's way. That is the last resort option, however it is an option they look at very seriously, they will go underground and will not shed one tear for any above ground.

If you took every country's nuclear weapons out of the world, or if some magical force removed all nuclear weapons then who would rule the world? China of course.

America will never be able to hold back China nor will America ever be able to repay her debt. America is a declining power because of complacency, poor education for the last two generations, also half of America prefers socialism. America has not been America for a long time already, I think Kennedy proved that really well with his own blood.

Many of you are debate queens for debate's sake alone, you strain over a tiny point that helps your particular position of debate like high school kids that have never experienced the real world. You get so cuaght up in the dotted "i"'s and crossed "t"'s you ignore the big piture of the house burning down all around you. That is what those first two videos in my first post is about, the bigger picture.

I hate the new world order planners and their agenda more than just about anything else, but people who cannot see the truth in plain sight are running a close second and you know I hope you just keep on debating until it ends.  

For those of you that know the truth about the birth cerificate and everything else keep on telling others and thanks.

Not only do you hate those damn Commies and are one of the gallant Few who know the Truth™, but you're so modest about your talents, too.

[Leonardo]

MysteryX, on 22 April 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Many of you are debate queens for debate's sake alone, you strain over a tiny point that helps your particular position of debate like high school kids that have never experienced the real world. You get so caught up in the dotted "i"'s and crossed "t"'s you ignore the big piture of the house burning down all around you. That is what those first two videos in my first post is about, the bigger picture.

A common defence for those who either forget, or ignore, that any "big picture" is a composite of many tiny pixels.

[Chrlzs]

MysteryX - do you backpedal for the Olympics?  Your avoidance of anything about the original claim is just a teeny bit obvious..

Answer the questions.  I've now seen and listened to the proceedings, which clearly shows that the article, and YOU, have completely misrepresented what was said and why the court ruled, correctly, as it did.  It's on youtube - surely it would be up to MysteryX to provide the link, had he done the research.... I wonder why he didn't want any source material to cloud the issue...

It also shows the complete incompetence of Purpura, Moran and Apuzzo who weren't quite sure of what complaint they were making, and when it was clarified they basically had to admit they had absolutely no case at all - they had no grounds whatsoever to claim any document was false, and they were whining about Obama not doing something that he was in no way obliged to do.  Orly Taitz all over again - in fact I wonder if these morons are deliberately trying to make fun of birthers..  It's working.


Anyway, I think misleading the people on this forum is a bad thing...

PS - over on Abovetopsecret, this has been ceremoniously dumped into the HOAX bin - quite rightly.  Ya think ATS wouldn't want this to be a real conspiracy?

[Babe Ruth]

It's a bold statement by the government as to the irrelevancy of the rule of law.  Nonexistence of rule of law.  

[Chrlzs]

Babe Ruth, on 22 April 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

It's a bold statement by the government as to the irrelevancy of the rule of law.  Nonexistence of rule of law.  

Please QUOTE, in context, what you are referring to, Babe.

As this is a pretty simple legal matter, it won't take much effort from you to make sure your answer includes all context, and cites the 'rule of law' that you think is being made irrelevant.

I trust you know your stuff...

[Chrlzs]

For the record, here's what actually happened at that hearing.  I thank 'MrXYZ' on ATS, on this thread, for the summary I have condensed and restated here.

First, Purpura, Morgan and Apuzzo claimed that:
1. Obama has to hand in a birth certificate to the NJ Secretary of State
2. The birth certficate document on the Internet is a forgery.

Alexandra Hill (nominated legal defence for Obama) correctly stated that the President doesn't have to hand over a birth certificate to the NJ Secretary of State - his identity is checked/verified in other ways.  As this was not a requirement for Obama, there is no case to answer and the document is irrelevant.   Hill at no point said it was a forgery or fabrication - in fact it was the judge that pointed out that given there is no case to answer, it wouldn't matter what the document was, or wasn't.

As the judge correctly stated, Purpura, Morgan and Apuzzo didn't have a case - Obama was not required to hand a birth certificate to the NJ SoS.  What is more, they had no evidence that the document was fabricated or a forgery anyway!

How much more court time will Obama-haters be wasting with incompetent legal pretenders like these idiots?

[Fluffybunny]

MysteryX, on 22 April 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Most of you are a product of this generation (less than 25 years old) maybe I should add that to my hate list as well. Not for you personally mind you but for sheer stupidy.

Yeah, there are some stupidy people out there.