139 replies to this topic

[Setton]

Leonardo, on 26 April 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

For a different interpretation than the one lightly provided, then it is possible the 'three days' represent the 3 months of winter - the interlude between the autumn harvest, when the crop is reaped, and the spring sowing, when the first new growth of the next crop becomes visible.

That sounds more like it to me. I've got to admit, I was skeptical when I first read this thread. Now I'm not so sure.

[karmakazi]

"People made up the idea of god based on the sun/stars/zodiac" vs "people compared god to the sun/stars/zodiac because they thought that 'above' was where god came from."

Unless you were there, you can't prove which one of the above is true.  Most of the quotes could be read to support to either of the above arguments.




If JESUS were a covert description of a celestial body, my first thought would be the moon as it disappears for roughly 3 days during the new moon, and his ressurection after three days is one of the most important factors to Christians.  This also makes more sense if you think of GOD as the sun, Jesus as the moon, and the stars/zodiac as the angels.

It is obvious that certain parts of Christian ritual are pagan in nature and it is well understood that this was done in order to more easily convert the pagans to Christianity.  This does not, however, mean that the original version of Christianity involved semblences of sun worship.

Edited by karmakazi, 26 April 2012 - 05:49 PM.

[Diablo Blanco]

Leonardo, on 26 April 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

For a different interpretation than the one lightly provided, then it is possible the 'three days' represent the 3 months of winter - the interlude between the autumn harvest, when the crop is reaped, and the spring sowing, when the first new growth of the next crop becomes visible.

Leanardo, I love the idea "3 months of winter." The Sun dies at the winter solstice and is resurrected at the vernal equinox! Read this quote from book 2 of 'The Astronmical Foundation of the Christ Myth';

Quote

The Two Thieves that are crucified with the Savior (Sun) refer to the Equinoxes. The one on the Right Hand is the Vernal Equinox. The one on the Left Hand (who bad mouthed the savior) is the Autumnal Equinox. The Equinoxes are referred to as thieves, because they are thieves of time. They steal Time from each other. When the Sun intersects either equinox, for that day of crossing, Time (Daytime and Nighttime) on the planet is brought into equilibrium, at twelve hours. We have twelve hours of light and twelve hours of darkness, on the day of the Equinox. In the case of the Vernal Equinox (which represents light), He,  on the second day after the sun’s crossing, Steals Time from the Autumnal Equinox (which represents darkness) and from this point,  the world continues to have more light (daytime) than darkness, until the Sun crosses the Autumnal Equinox. When the Sun crosses the Autumnal Equinox, this thief (autumnal equinox) repeats the crime (theft of time) in the favor of increased Darkness.

Source: http://www.newagedat...m#Book2Chapter7

Edited by Hazrus, 26 April 2012 - 06:04 PM.

[Jor-el]

Hazrus, on 26 April 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Leanardo, I love the idea "3 months of winter." The Sun dies at the winter solstice and id resurrected at the vernal equinox! Read this quote from book 2 of 'The Astronimical Foundation of the Christ Myth';



Source: http://www.newagedat...m#Book2Chapter7

You do realize that no serious scholar accepts the Christ Myth position anymore don't you?

The only ones who do accept that position are those trying to sell books among other things... I think the term "snake oil salesman" seems to apply here.

[Leonardo]

Jor-el, on 26 April 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

You do realize that no serious scholar accepts the Christ Myth position anymore don't you?

The only ones who do accept that position are those trying to sell books among other things... I think the term "snake oil salesman" seems to apply here.

There is no false dichotomy in accepting that some (or many) of the themes surrounding the mythologising of someone who may have existed, and may have been a leading proselytiser for a baptismal cult, may have been adopted from various other religions and beliefs.

Reading 'non-Christian' symbolism into the narrative does not prohibit a historical Jesus from existing, which is the basis of the objection to the "Christ Myth". I accept it might clash with the belief of those who read the narrative as original and unique, rather than derivative and 'borrowed', but that is not exactly a barrier to the analysis of the themes involved into the framework of pre-existing, and 'non-Christian', beliefs.

Edited by Leonardo, 26 April 2012 - 06:50 PM.

[Jor-el]

Leonardo, on 26 April 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

There is no false dichotomy in accepting that some (or many) of the themes surrounding the mythologising of someone who may have existed, and may have been a leading proselytiser for a baptismal cult, may have been adopted from various other religions and beliefs.

Reading 'non-Christian' symbolism into the narrative does not prohibit a historical Jesus from existing, which is the basis of the objection to the "Christ Myth". I accept it might clash with the belief of those who read the narrative as original and unique, rather than derivative and 'borrowed', but that is not exactly a barrier to the analysis of the themes involved into the framework of pre-existing, and 'non-Christian', beliefs.

One can indeed reject the basis of the christian mythology as expressed in the bible without rejecting the existence of a historical Jesus. What I have to wonder, is the usage of the "Christ Myth" proponents use of the idea and the terminology associated with the term, in their discussions, knowing full well that the term does not convey a correct and historical perspective.

It is thus a tool, that allows them to convince others of the validity of their claims under false premises.

Edited by Jor-el, 26 April 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[Leonardo]

Jor-el, on 26 April 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

One can indeed reject the basis of the christian mythology as expressed in the bible without rejecting the existence of a historical Jesus. What I have to wonder, is the usage of the "Christ Myth" proponents use of the idea and the terminology associated with the term, in their discussions, knowing full well that the term does not convey a correct and historical perspective.

It is thus a tool, that allows them to convince others of the validity of their claims under false premises.

That would make this a tool in the same way some propose a divinity of Jesus to promote their own perception of what was the 'correct and historical perspective' from the narrative, Jor-el?

To turn around the question Setton proposed, why would Jesus/God have to spend three days dead before resurrecting? What is the significance of the number 3?

Edited by Leonardo, 27 April 2012 - 05:18 AM.

[Diablo Blanco]

Jor-el, on 26 April 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

You do realize that no serious scholar accepts the Christ Myth position anymore don't you?

The only ones who do accept that position are those trying to sell books among other things... I think the term "snake oil salesman" seems to apply here.

God created Adam from dust yet had to impregnate Joseph's wife in order to create Jesus? Now that's some snake oil salesmanship for ya  

[Beckys_Mom]

Hazrus, on 24 April 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

. The first one thousand, they say, corresponds to the "Lamb," the second to the Bull, the third to the Twins, &c. Under these first six signs, or under the signs of the first six months of the equinoctial year, they place the reign and the beneficent action of the principle of Light, and under the other six signs, they place the action of the principle of Evil. It is at the seventh sign, corresponding to the Balance, or at the first of the signs of autumn, of the season of fruits and of winter, that they place the commencement of the reign of Darkness and of Evil. This reign lasts until the return of the Sun to the sign of the Lamb, which corresponds to the month of March and to Easter. This is the foundation of their theological system about the distribution of the opposing forces of the two principles, to the action of which, man is subject, during each solar revolution; this is the tree of Good and of Evil, near which Nature has placed him.
If we substitute for the names of the signs, or of the Balance, the Scorpion, the Sagittarius and the Capricorn, the Waterman and the Fishes, those of the months of September, October, November, December, January and February, we shall have the six times affected by the principal of Evil and its effects, which. are the hoary frosts, the snow, the winds, and excessive rains. It will be observed, that the evil Genius begins to exercise his fatal influence in September or in the season of fruits and of apples, by the introduction of cold weather, by the destruction of plants, &c. It is then, that man becomes aware of the evils, which he ignored in spring and summer in the beautiful climates of the northern hemisphere.

Thank you for posting up the highlights  I requested....  I read through it all but I thought I would raise  this part...... As interesting as it sounds, this  tells me that mankind  will point to evil  if there is coldness and darker days...  I never understood why this is... It seems to have spread over time.......The dark and the cold  must make it miserable  and evil...   Even  when you look at how some used to think that at the first sign of an eclipse,  ( moon over the sun )  they too thought because it was darkness, it must be evil....  And  this character mankind invented  - The devil  aka satan.. they pegged this man made spirit  as the prince of darkness.. .  I think  it is all  just from the imagination  of man...  We know that many of those months in parts of the world  are not  all darkness and cold  ,   Like for example .. Our summer is  Australia's  winter...and so on ...

But in saying that, your  thread has  now become most interesting  to date....  and I thank you for posting it...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 27 April 2012 - 09:12 AM.

[Beckys_Mom]

Hazrus, on 26 April 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

The Summer Solstice, Christ (sun) enters Jerusalem, riding on two asses; see quotation from the book 'The Astrological Foundation Of The Christ Myth' that explains this symbolism:



Gamma Cancri (γ Cnc, γ Cancri) is a star system in the constellation Cancer. It has the traditional name Asellus Borealis (Latin for "northern donkey colt"). http://en.wikipedia....ki/Gamma_Cancri

Delta Cancri (δ Cnc, δ Cancri) is an orange giant star approximately 180 light-years away in the constellation Cancer. It has the traditional name Asellus Australis which in Latin means "southern donkey colt".  http://en.wikipedia....ki/Delta_Cancri

The calendar we use today is the Gregorian Calendar, the solar calendar in use throughout most of the

world.

The Gregorian calendar, also called the Western calendar and the Christian calendar, is the internationally accepted civil calendar.[1][2][3] It was introduced by Pope Gregory XIII, after whom the calendar was named, by a decree signed on 24 February 1582. http://en.wikipedia....gorian_calendar

I wonder if god was the inspiration for Pope Gregory's calendar or if it was the Stars?...

I enjoyed reading  that... And that is a very good question  in ref to pope Gregory....  Al I can say is - Who knows?   Could be...


Keep  them coming... the more you post, the more interesting this thread becomes........  I feel this is one of the few threads  that  doesn't need debated.. it just needs to be read. because there is  info that even I never knew about... ..if you can understand what I mean...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 27 April 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[lightly]

It is an interesting parallel  that the birth of Jesus, in Christian tradition, is on the same day as the rebirth of the sun.  Also that his resurrection just happens to coincide, closely, with Spring equinox.   The sun rises in the East on Easter morning.   In searching the origins of those words I came across  these verses from the Bible.    

■ “In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.” (Matthew 28:1)

■ “And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.” (Mark 16:2)


■ “But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;” (Malachi 4:2)

■ “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.” (2 Peter 1:19)


*

Edited by lightly, 27 April 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[and then]

Or just maybe the gospel story is true?  And the enemy of the Creator spread a series of lies down the centuries to confuse those who otherwise might believe?  Maybe an acceptance of humility in our limitations has to be the starting point for the great adventure.

[Diablo Blanco]

Beckys_Mom, on 27 April 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

Thank you for posting up the highlights  I requested....  I read through it all but I thought I would raise  this part...... As interesting as it sounds, this  tells me that mankind  will point to evil  if there is coldness and darker days...  I never understood why this is... It seems to have spread over time.......The dark and the cold  must make it miserable  and evil...   Even  when you look at how some used to think that at the first sign of an eclipse,  ( moon over the sun )  they too thought because it was darkness, it must be evil....  And  this character mankind invented  - The devil  aka satan.. they pegged this man made spirit  as the prince of darkness.. .  I think  it is all  just from the imagination  of man...  We know that many of those months in parts of the world  are not  all darkness and cold  ,   Like for example .. Our summer is  Australia's  winter...and so on ...

But in saying that, your  thread has  now become most interesting  to date....  and I thank you for posting it...

Let me start off by saying thank you for the compliment BM. Secondly, Most of the land of earth is above the equator, in the Northern Hemisphere. The majority of land and hence the majority of the world's population is in the Northern Hemisphere, so we tend to orient world maps with North at the top.  This also explains why globes are oriented with the North Pole upwards, as this makes it easier to see most of the land. If a globe was mounted with the South Pole upwards then most of the land would be on the underside of the globe and we'd all be bending over to see the land.  
Having most of the land in the Northern Hemisphere also explains why clocks go clockwise. Since most of the land is in the Northern Hemisphere, it's natural that the people who invented mechanical clocks would live in the Northern Hemisphere and would make the hands on their clocks mimic the direction a shadow moves on a sundial. "Clockwise" is the direction shadows move in the Northern Hemisphere. (See lesson on Sundials) Most measuring devices with dials also go clockwise because of this.

The Holy Land region is approximately between 25° and 50° North latitude. This is important because this is the latitude where the familiar seasons of the year exist, with the shortest day of Winter occurring in December and the longest day of Summer occurring in June. This region also conveniently contains the United States of America where a lot of Christians live. If you happen to live in this latitude range then you're lucky, you're already familiar with the same seasons of the year the ancient writers of the Bible experienced, and you can go outside any night and see the same stars they saw.

http://www.solarmyth...ns/latitude.htm
http://www.solarmyth.../lessons/nh.htm

[Diablo Blanco]

lightly, on 27 April 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

It is an interesting parallel  that the birth of Jesus, in Christian tradition, is on the same day as the rebirth of the sun.  Also that his resurrection just happens to coincide, closely, with Spring equinox.   The sun rises in the East on Easter morning.   In searching the origins of those words I came across  these verses from the Bible.    

■ “In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.” (Matthew 28:1)

■ “And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.” (Mark 16:2)


■ “But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings;” (Malachi 4:2)

■ “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.” (2 Peter 1:19)


*

[Diablo Blanco]

Quote

Noah’s Ark
The Flood of Noah was simply a means of noting the period of the sun's weakness during the winter months and the perilous affect this had on the populace: the period of the floods worst devastation was indicated as spanning 150 days; this number is key to recognizing the focus of the symbolism; it covers 5 months at 30 days to the month. So we could note that when we come across this number in scriptures, whether stated as 150 days or 5 months, it is probably referring to the period of earthly tribulation (environmental adversity) that accompanied the sun's descent to lower declinations during the winter months. Concerning the symbolism of the number 40: the first struggle that the sun encounters, after falling below the Autumnal Equinox, is the struggle of transition from summer to winter. We do not go from one season to the next instantly, but rather through a period of transition; the Ancients observed that the period of transition lasted 40 days, and
they wrote this in their mythology. The moribund festival of Halloween marks the end of the 40-day period, from the Autumnal Equinox of September 22 in our modern calendars; and then from Halloween to the Vernal Equinox ( the Mount Ararat) is a little less than 150 days - this is the period of time indicated by the Noah saga, that the waters prevailed upon the earth. The actual days spanned from Halloween to the astronomical coordinate designating the Vernal Equinox (March 21) is actually about 140 days; however, the Ancients measured time by the phases of the moon, most notably the New Moon or the Full Moon; consequently they noted the first Full Moon, after the crossing of the Vernal Equinox, as their time indicator, and this took them to exactly 150 days.
If you strip away all the nonsensical jargon of the tale, about corralling into the Ark all of the world's creatures, so as to preserve them from the flood, you will note that the main import of the saga is to instruct people to store up provisions for a long (5 months) winter. The true dynamic within all mythology is instruction; mythology was the primary means used by the Ancients to preserve their knowledge and history. For many thousands of years, ancient mankind did not possess the means or resources to pass on knowledge in books, journals or scrolls; they had to instruct their societies orally; they discovered that the use of pictures, folk tales, symbolic stories (myths), songs, dances and gestures was the most efficacious system by which to preserve their history. ~ Malik H. Jabbar "Lifting the Gnostic Veil"

Saints they were called, and Saints really they are, that name signifying, as its derivation betrays, Suns, as each of the fixed Stars is a Sun; and which the circular halo of rays, with which the heads of their effigies were surrounded, expressly acknowledged; evangelists they were, because their office was "to preach the acceptable year of the Lord," and to mark the predicament of Evan — that is, of Bacchus, the Sun, through the four seasons. http://www.solarmyth...ilspulpit22.htm

It is interesting to note and you can research yourself, that in the movie Evan Almighty(story similar to Noah's ark), there is a scene where Evan's family is at the dinner table and God(Morgan Freeman)comes on the TV as a WEATHER MAN and tells Evan(Steve Carrol) the rains will begin on September 22nd, which just happens to be the Autumnal Equinox.

Edited by Hazrus, 27 April 2012 - 04:44 PM.