56 replies to this topic

[Sherapy]

Mr Walker, on 22 April 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

Along with other posters I am concerned that anyone could see suffering as a necessary imperative of the humam condition. One can use suffering productively, but it is not an essential ingredient of life .

And I am intrigued at why you would include, "abstaining from adultery" as a cause of suffering. Rather the reverse in my experience.   It brings great; joy, peace, and contentment;  but as far as i can appreciate or experience, no form of suffering.

I interpret the OP to be saying at times in the course of a life time you may suffer. It is  a part of the human condition. Like it or not. There will be things in life that are painful, that suck, that one will have to endure or get through or live with. And maybe sometimes 'no suffering strategies' may  help, but maybe they won't. In fact, I  have encountered a few experiences in my life that were just dang gum awful and I  suffered for a while as part of a natural grieving process.  It is the reality of life, it comes with life at times. Accepting that is what helps me. I cannot avoid or deny it all. At times, to be honest-- I have had to face the experiences for what they were and at times I have suffered and I bet I will suffer again before my time is up and I can live  with that. I'll manage. When my sister was murdered there was no other way to be but in pain. It was a natural reaction to such a loss. One of the stages was extreme pain and suffering at the loss.

Edited by Sherapy, 23 April 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[Beany]

karmakazi, on 23 April 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

It is in our nature to suffer, the unfortunate core of what it means to be human.  We are animals, just like the other animals on this planet, and yet we have consciousness and a higher awareness, we have morals.  It is not possible to live as an animal and to completely be able to align that with your morals.  You must, to some degree, abandon one or the other.  



This does tie to the concept of original sin too.  Knowledge about the world and recognition of the self, knowledge of what is good and what is evil:  simply posessing this knowledge is the source of suffering.  


We see a tiger innocently kill an elk for nothing more than food, but we feel a pang because we understand that the elk is dead, that it felt pain and fear in the moments before its death.  The tiger knows nothing of this.  It only knows that the elk looks like food, smells like food, and now it tastes like food.  The tiger must survive, it knows nothing greater than survival, so it cannot comprehend the pain that it causes.  

We however can comprehend the pain even when we are not the source of the pain.  Being capable of this awareness makes us aware of suffering in other creatures and ultimately aware of our own suffering.  Sin itself is suffering, whether you're causing it within yourself or causing it to others, sin is nothing more than suffering plus guilt.  Sin is problematic because it perpetuates the suffering binding the individual to their mortality and denying them the spiritual connection.  I don't think of sin as a black mark written in a book but as a tether, holding us back, causing us to be internally dead instead of internally alive... or on the middle ground, to be asleep.  


Because we are forced to make choices like this, to try and reconcile our dual natures which are polar opposites of one another, we suffer.  In this way, yes it is necessary to suffer because that suffering originates from the struggle between animalistic and spiritual.  

Suffering means the battle is being waged, we haven't given up and abandoned the spiritual to be animalistic.  Often, the closer to the animalistic we are the more we suffer for it.  One way or another, we are beings capable of great compassion and spirituality living in coarse bodies that deal out pain and suffering in order to survive.


When a philosophy describes suffering as necessary, it does not mean that suffering is divine or imposed upon us in order to elevate us, but rather that it is part of who we are and it is unavoidable.  It has the result, eventually, of driving us to a more spiritual state as we become aware that our repeated actions following our baser animal instincts cause us to suffer.  Eventually we'll see the pattern, after it has repeated countless times.  We chase after those things that ultimately cause us suffering, and as we become more aware we instead recognize and reject the sources of the suffering instead of rejecting the suffering itself.

My take on it, anyway.

In the Church of Beany, it will be carved on the lintel: Abandon suffering, all ye who enter. Nope, don't buy that it's in our nature to suffer business, it's at the core of what it means to be human. My intellect, my experiences tell me that is not true for me; can't speak for anyone else. I'm Wiccan, we start with the belief that life on planet Earth is one of the greatest gifts spirit can give us, and we are to celebrate and savor life while we're here. One's life changes radically when core beliefs change, I gave up the suffering business and switched to joy. Life's been much better.

Edited by Beany, 24 April 2012 - 02:36 AM.

[HavocWing]

Suffering is a requisite of being a martyr.

[Marks_Thoughts]

_Only, on 22 April 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Where's the empirical data of that?

Each of us is a unique combination of DNA that has evolved from millions of years of unique DNA recombining over and over. Now, taking that thought to mind I observe that every other organism on the planet does something that leads to the same result - recombinations of DNA through breeding. If this is common in every species, and folks talk about a soul or life force, why wouldn't there also be some form of recombination of the essence(s), as we would perceive it? Moving through speciation to higher life forms with increasing self-awareness seems to be at least a part of the natural order and it is accomplished by trial and error through breeding. So why wouldn't the soul suffer the same fate as the complete death of our physical body, which has virtually no chance of natural exact genetic duplication. Wouldn't it make sense for the soul, or whatever life force is, recombines and is never repeated? Otherwise, what have we learned as a species?

[Marks_Thoughts]

ozman, on 22 April 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

this world is not the true reality and we are literally only half alive.  im typing from ipad so excuse my mistakes,  if you noticed religions like islam and budhism speak of how suffering increases ones purity and brings one closer to god and in touch with his/her higherself.  Suffering in this world wether its from abstaining from adultery or lower desires or physical suffering increases ones purity.  we vibrate on a higher level and get in touch with our higher spirit self when we let go of the ties of this world like money and worldly things.  

remembering god and being patient and forgiving and loving are what increases a persons purity and gets rid of sins since humams are imperfect.  

this is the era when humans will finally start getting deeper in touch with their spirit higher self and know the truth, i believe we are in a new era of consciousness awareness.

This is a load of crap. As a military officer I learned very quickly that it is easy to go to war and be cold, wet, hungry, thirsty, etc. - fools in every society do that every single day. What a true military officer does is not be cold, not wet, never hungry or thirsty, etc. and those who depend on the officer never are either. The point in war is to make that happen to the other guys. Every form of human advancement has been with the sole purpose of defeating the cold, the wet, the hunger and thirst that so easily can assault you. Seeking to suffer violates every rational thought a person can have and proves that the person is NOT a fully awake human being. Simply put, my guys are fed and I'll do whatever it takes to make it so. It's called evolution - if you want to suffer fine, but I'm staying healthy, fed, and taking a wife to live comfortably. I wonder whose genetics will be passed along in greater quantity.

[and then]

karmakazi, on 23 April 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

It is in our nature to suffer, the unfortunate core of what it means to be human.  We are animals, just like the other animals on this planet, and yet we have consciousness and a higher awareness, we have morals.  It is not possible to live as an animal and to completely be able to align that with your morals.  You must, to some degree, abandon one or the other.  

This does tie to the concept of original sin too.  Knowledge about the world and recognition of the self, knowledge of what is good and what is evil:  simply posessing this knowledge is the source of suffering.  


We see a tiger innocently kill an elk for nothing more than food, but we feel a pang because we understand that the elk is dead, that it felt pain and fear in the moments before its death.  The tiger knows nothing of this.  It only knows that the elk looks like food, smells like food, and now it tastes like food.  The tiger must survive, it knows nothing greater than survival, so it cannot comprehend the pain that it causes.  

We however can comprehend the pain even when we are not the source of the pain.  Being capable of this awareness makes us aware of suffering in other creatures and ultimately aware of our own suffering.  Sin itself is suffering, whether you're causing it within yourself or causing it to others, sin is nothing more than suffering plus guilt.  Sin is problematic because it perpetuates the suffering binding the individual to their mortality and denying them the spiritual connection.  I don't think of sin as a black mark written in a book but as a tether, holding us back, causing us to be internally dead instead of internally alive... or on the middle ground, to be asleep.  


Because we are forced to make choices like this, to try and reconcile our dual natures which are polar opposites of one another, we suffer.  In this way, yes it is necessary to suffer because that suffering originates from the struggle between animalistic and spiritual.  

Suffering means the battle is being waged, we haven't given up and abandoned the spiritual to be animalistic.  Often, the closer to the animalistic we are the more we suffer for it.  One way or another, we are beings capable of great compassion and spirituality living in coarse bodies that deal out pain and suffering in order to survive.


When a philosophy describes suffering as necessary, it does not mean that suffering is divine or imposed upon us in order to elevate us, but rather that it is part of who we are and it is unavoidable.  It has the result, eventually, of driving us to a more spiritual state as we become aware that our repeated actions following our baser animal instincts cause us to suffer.  Eventually we'll see the pattern, after it has repeated countless times.  We chase after those things that ultimately cause us suffering, and as we become more aware we instead recognize and reject the sources of the suffering instead of rejecting the suffering itself.

My take on it, anyway.

Karmakazi there is a great divergence in many of our opinions but I have to say that this post is the best description of humanity that I've ever read.  It may or may not be 100% accurate but it encapsulates my beliefs almost perfectly.  Thanks for posting.

[_Only]

Marks_Thoughts, on 24 April 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

Each of us is a unique combination of DNA that has evolved from millions of years of unique DNA recombining over and over. Now, taking that thought to mind I observe that every other organism on the planet does something that leads to the same result - recombinations of DNA through breeding. If this is common in every species, and folks talk about a soul or life force, why wouldn't there also be some form of recombination of the essence(s), as we would perceive it? Moving through speciation to higher life forms with increasing self-awareness seems to be at least a part of the natural order and it is accomplished by trial and error through breeding. So why wouldn't the soul suffer the same fate as the complete death of our physical body, which has virtually no chance of natural exact genetic duplication. Wouldn't it make sense for the soul, or whatever life force is, recombines and is never repeated? Otherwise, what have we learned as a species?

It could make sense, but only if you equate something like DNA to a soul. We can't really do that; the sole reason being that we don't even know and understand what exactly a soul is, or if it even exists (scientifically).

The argument can also be made that an essence, or soul, moving on from its dead body, to be born again in a new body, could be a powerful tool for evolving learning as a species. If you could entertain the idea of the soul remembering all it has learned in its past lives (although the person/animal/etc. doesn't recall consciously).

[Mr Walker]

ozman, on 22 April 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

Mr. Walker sex does bring joy but if you ain't married to the person then it is a sin which makes you impure is where i was getting at.  For example the prophet Yusuf (Joseph) was the most handsome man of his time and women used to bite their fingers off due to his good looks and when a woman wanted to have sex with him he refused saying he was above such sinful things!

I was afraid someone would miss my point. I meant that abstaining from adultery in thought and deed brings all those things. Not the act of adultery /sex.

Adultery is; cheating,  oath breaking, and a deception; which undermines any relationship. It is a betrayal of love. I can't see any benefits accruing from it, sufficient to make it even the slightest bit tempting.
Plus, marriage is too important a personal and social structure to put at risk  by adultery.
Ps. You may just have explained the strange number of women in my life missing a finger or two

[Beany]

HavocWing, on 24 April 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

Suffering is a requisite of being a martyr.

Never had aspirations along those lines, possibly because I'm very bad at suffering. Those times I've tried I've lost interest, found it unrewarding, and became bored, as well as kind of pissed off at myself for even trying it. For me it's the mental equivalent of laying quietly on a warm beach somewhere, slathered in suntan lotion, wearing a hat & sunglasses, when what I really want to do is jump in the water and splash around and look at the fish & coral & stuff.

[Beany]

Suffering doesn't always drive us to a higher state of consciousness, sometimes it drives us to suicide. Sure, everyone who has a life has had some suffering, but I don't believe it's necessary to one's spiritual growth. Certainly it's not central to my belief system. Perhaps when we give up the battle, give up the suffering, that creates an empty space that can be filled by spirit. The Hopi elders tell us to banish the word struggle from our vocabulary. So about 6 months ago, as a practice, I did give up struggle. It changed my outlook, my perceptions, and understanding of what it means to be human, and improved the quality of my life.

[_Only]

Beany, on 25 April 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

The Hopi elders tell us to banish the word struggle from our vocabulary.

Aw, that's one of my favorite words. Well, of course not. But it's one I do struggle with.  Oops, I did it again.

[karmakazi]

Beany, on 24 April 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

In the Church of Beany, it will be carved on the lintel: Abandon suffering, all ye who enter. Nope, don't buy that it's in our nature to suffer business, it's at the core of what it means to be human. My intellect, my experiences tell me that is not true for me; can't speak for anyone else. I'm Wiccan, we start with the belief that life on planet Earth is one of the greatest gifts spirit can give us, and we are to celebrate and savor life while we're here. One's life changes radically when core beliefs change, I gave up the suffering business and switched to joy. Life's been much better.

Does that mean then that you view the source of suffering itself as coming only from the ill intent and actions of people, that it cannot come from nature (or our nature) itself?

and then, on 24 April 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

Karmakazi there is a great divergence in many of our opinions but I have to say that this post is the best description of humanity that I've ever read.  It may or may not be 100% accurate but it encapsulates my beliefs almost perfectly.  Thanks for posting.

Thank you!

[JayMark]

ozman, on 22 April 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

this world is not the true reality and we are literally only half alive.  im typing from ipad so excuse my mistakes,  if you noticed religions like islam and budhism speak of how suffering increases ones purity and brings one closer to god and in touch with his/her higherself.  Suffering in this world wether its from abstaining from adultery or lower desires or physical suffering increases ones purity.  we vibrate on a higher level and get in touch with our higher spirit self when we let go of the ties of this world like money and worldly things.  

remembering god and being patient and forgiving and loving are what increases a persons purity and gets rid of sins since humams are imperfect.  

this is the era when humans will finally start getting deeper in touch with their spirit higher self and know the truth, i believe we are in a new era of consciousness awareness.

I somehow find some sense in what you are saying but if you go on and tell people that this is truth, don't expect them to go around and say; "Geez, thanks! I had been so blinded already! Now I know what the truth finally is!".

I also beleive that we are in a new era of the evolution of consciousness. I think we are facing the biggest issues of our entire history and this will either lead us to a great period of peace and wisdom or destruction and death. But that's not truth, that's a beleif.

Peace.

[Beany]

karmakazi, on 25 April 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

Does that mean then that you view the source of suffering itself as coming only from the ill intent and actions of people, that it cannot come from nature (or our nature) itself?






Thank you!

No. I believe a lot of suffering, once basic needs have been met, is a matter of perception. It can be caused by failing to accept what is, focus on what one doesn't have instead of gratitude for what one does have, failure to love & forgive one's self as well as others, failure to recognize abundance instead of lack. It's caused by a determination to exclude instead of include, or by fuzzy or immature thinking. Think about it. If one has determined that suffering is necessary and has value, wouldn't that influence one's thoughts & words & actions, and where one's attention goes? However, is one's core belief is that life is a fantastic gift and is to be joyously celebrated, then one's attention flows in another direction. Think about how what we believe to be true about the world and ourselves, the foundation on which we build our lives, shapes our understanding, perceptions, and actions.

[Sherapy]

Beany, on 25 April 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

Suffering doesn't always drive us to a higher state of consciousness, sometimes it drives us to suicide. Sure, everyone who has a life has had some suffering, but I don't believe it's necessary to one's spiritual growth. Certainly it's not central to my belief system. Perhaps when we give up the battle, give up the suffering, that creates an empty space that can be filled by spirit. The Hopi elders tell us to banish the word struggle from our vocabulary. So about 6 months ago, as a practice, I did give up struggle. It changed my outlook, my perceptions, and understanding of what it means to be human, and improved the quality of my life.

I agree with a lot of what you posit, having self efficacy (as set forth  by Bandura) is a major aspect of emotional hardiness.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Self-efficacy



I agree with you, I do not think that having my sister murdered was necessary to my growth; I can tell you it is not something I would of sought out quite frankly. Yet, the irony is this; I did grow as a result of the suffering, in fact, I learned a lot about myself.( Would I of gained the same insights without this experience so young, probably not.) suffering sure has a way of putting things into perspective.  My point is this; there is suffering that happens that is beyond our locus of control, and it can be awful for a time. For me,  my greatest strength has come-- not-- in avoiding falling down, but in the fact that I can get back up, no matter what  life brings me.
I'm not sorry I know this, it has been a great asset.

Edited by Sherapy, 25 April 2012 - 05:31 PM.