37 replies to this topic

[spud the mackem]

I have just read a CNN news article where an American Marine is being dishonorably discharged because he spoke out against the President.Does this mean that America has lost the right of Free Speech ?,which is in the Constitution.The President is an elected politician who not everyone agrees with but being a Democracy he was elected as he had more votes than the other guy,but that means that not everyone has to agree with what he says.I dont agree with a lot of what the Brit P.M says but that doesnt condemn me,as half the country feel the same way,but thats Democracy.I feel sorry for this guy because he spoke what he thought and is now being chucked out of the Marine Corps.They are even saying that he might have a mental condition ! Wow,I cannot believe that they would go to such lengths."The land of the Free,and the Home of the Brave".Well he certainly is Brave,but he's not Free.I like America and I like and Respect the people,and have always been treated well when I was there,but isnt this taking it a bit too far..If they discharged all Servicemen who had a gripe we would be in a sorry state,as its a Servicemans favourite passtime.I have to speak my mind and tell the truth,its the way I was brought up,and if people dont like it,well thats just too bad..Come on America FREE SPEECH is what made your country.

[Jeffertonturner]

Care to give a little more detail? "spoke out" how?

[and then]

spud the mackem, on 26 April 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

I have just read a CNN news article where an American Marine is being dishonorably discharged because he spoke out against the President.Does this mean that America has lost the right of Free Speech ?,which is in the Constitution.The President is an elected politician who not everyone agrees with but being a Democracy he was elected as he had more votes than the other guy,but that means that not everyone has to agree with what he says.I dont agree with a lot of what the Brit P.M says but that doesnt condemn me,as half the country feel the same way,but thats Democracy.I feel sorry for this guy because he spoke what he thought and is now being chucked out of the Marine Corps.They are even saying that he might have a mental condition ! Wow,I cannot believe that they would go to such lengths."The land of the Free,and the Home of the Brave".Well he certainly is Brave,but he's not Free.I like America and I like and Respect the people,and have always been treated well when I was there,but isnt this taking it a bit too far..If they discharged all Servicemen who had a gripe we would be in a sorry state,as its a Servicemans favourite passtime.I have to speak my mind and tell the truth,its the way I was brought up,and if people dont like it,well thats just too bad..Come on America FREE SPEECH is what made your country.

And as a civilian he now will have those rights again.  But the military requires a level of control over it's members that exceeds what is known in the civilian world.  When a person signs an enlistment contract and takes the oath they cease being a civilian and their rights change.  They are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.  I'm no expert on the UCMJ but I know that commissioned officers cannot freely express themselves with "contemptuous" words about the commander in chief (president).  I assume that non commissioned officers like the sergeant are liable for such conduct as well.  It just wouldn't be good for order and discipline to have service members saying anything they wanted to the press about their superiors and the actions being taken by those superiors.
As I heard in a movie once:  "We're here to fight for democracy, not practice it"  that sums it up perfectly.

[karmakazi]

spud the mackem, on 26 April 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

..Come on America FREE SPEECH is what made your country.

If I may correct, revolution is what made our country.  Free speech was an ideal that drove the revolution, among many others.  The founding fathers expected that we would continue to have revolutions from time to time as it is necessary in order to keep the true desires of the people at the forefront.  They didn't plan for us to turn into complacent sheep.


We have free speech but that's only if it isn't near military, government or politicians.  They set up "free speech zones" at major political events... well away from the event, so that the "free speech" is kept far from the event.

[spud the mackem]

Jeffertonturner, on 26 April 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

Care to give a little more detail? "spoke out" how?

Read the article,its there for all to see on CNN news

[TK0001]

spud the mackem, on 26 April 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

Read the article,its there for all to see on CNN news

Post the link. Common courtesy, if you want people to read it.

[spud the mackem]

karmakazi, on 26 April 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

If I may correct, revolution is what made our country.  Free speech was an ideal that drove the revolution, among many others.  The founding fathers expected that we would continue to have revolutions from time to time as it is necessary in order to keep the true desires of the people at the forefront.  They didn't plan for us to turn into complacent sheep.


We have free speech but that's only if it isn't near military, government or politicians.  They set up "free speech zones" at major political events... well away from the event, so that the "free speech" is kept far from the event.

So your m.g.or p are crapping themselves in case someone has a go and speaks the truth ?..If you say this happens I am very disappointed as I thought America has one of the fairest democracies in the world.You are not a terrorist if you speak your mind and its the truth,you might be anti-gov't but you're not anti-country.I would fight like 'ell for my country but that doesnt mean I like the politicians who run it.Presidents come and go but the people and country go onwards.Apologies if you take offence,and you certainly are not complacent sheep.

[spud the mackem]

TK0001, on 26 April 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Post the link. Common courtesy, if you want people to read it.

  I read news items from all over the world,this was an item posted on the CNN American  news channel this morning,if you cant find it maybe they havn't told you guys.

[TK0001]

spud the mackem, on 26 April 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

So your m.g.or p are crapping themselves in case someone has a go and speaks the truth ?..If you say this happens I am very disappointed as I thought America has one of the fairest democracies in the world.You are not a terrorist if you speak your mind and its the truth,you might be anti-gov't but you're not anti-country.I would fight like 'ell for my country but that doesnt mean I like the politicians who run it.Presidents come and go but the people and country go onwards.Apologies if you take offence,and you certainly are not complacent sheep.

I think we essentially have the same philosophy. I love my country, and the ideals which were established with it. I hate the permeating corruption in our government that has destroyed those ideals in the name of money.

As far as American having one of the fairest democracies in the world, I'm not so sure. We're certainly corrupted and the people are not represented very well, but I don't know how our corrupted democracy stacks up against others.

[TK0001]

spud the mackem, on 26 April 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

I read news items from all over the world,this was an item posted on the CNN American  news channel this morning,if you cant find it maybe they havn't told you guys.

Here, I found it.

My linkhttp://www.cnn.com/2012/04/25/us/marine-obama/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

[Euphorbia]

spud the mackem, on 26 April 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

I have just read a CNN news article where an American Marine is being dishonorably discharged because he spoke out against the President.Does this mean that America has lost the right of Free Speech ?,which is in the Constitution.The President is an elected politician who not everyone agrees with but being a Democracy he was elected as he had more votes than the other guy,but that means that not everyone has to agree with what he says.I dont agree with a lot of what the Brit P.M says but that doesnt condemn me,as half the country feel the same way,but thats Democracy.I feel sorry for this guy because he spoke what he thought and is now being chucked out of the Marine Corps.They are even saying that he might have a mental condition ! Wow,I cannot believe that they would go to such lengths."The land of the Free,and the Home of the Brave".Well he certainly is Brave,but he's not Free.I like America and I like and Respect the people,and have always been treated well when I was there,but isnt this taking it a bit too far..If they discharged all Servicemen who had a gripe we would be in a sorry state,as its a Servicemans favourite passtime.I have to speak my mind and tell the truth,its the way I was brought up,and if people dont like it,well thats just too bad..Come on America FREE SPEECH is what made your country.

I don't have a link or anything but I thought that it was not just about what the man said, but that he also would not take orders from the president.

That's simply not allowed in our military!

[spud the mackem]

and then, on 26 April 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

[/b]

And as a civilian he now will have those rights again.  But the military requires a level of control over it's members that exceeds what is known in the civilian world.  When a person signs an enlistment contract and takes the oath they cease being a civilian and their rights change.  They are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.  I'm no expert on the UCMJ but I know that commissioned officers cannot freely express themselves with "contemptuous" words about the commander in chief (president).  I assume that non commissioned officers like the sergeant are liable for such conduct as well.  It just wouldn't be good for order and discipline to have service members saying anything they wanted to the press about their superiors and the actions being taken by those superiors.
As I heard in a movie once:  "We're here to fight for democracy, not practice it"  that sums it up perfectly.

I ,like the movie quote,it would appear that politicians can speak a load of moo poo,but if the ordinary guy says anything against them its considered anti gov't or being a rebel..Tough on the military boys who die to save these a*******..

[spud the mackem]

TK0001, on 26 April 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

I think we essentially have the same philosophy. I love my country, and the ideals which were established with it. I hate the permeating corruption in our government that has destroyed those ideals in the name of money.

As far as American having one of the fairest democracies in the world, I'm not so sure. We're certainly corrupted and the people are not represented very well, but I don't know how our corrupted democracy stacks up against others.

Yep I feel the same way about the Brit Gov't,when I worked for them it was always "a need to know basis",and wow if you got an M.P's (member of parliament) letter,our bosses used to crap themselves,and any guy who happened to pass their door was an immediate scapegoat,the backstabbing and subterfuge was rife,and probably still is..I guess its better than living in a country which is ruled by a Dictator,and being shot for not grovelling..

[spud the mackem]

Euphorbia, on 26 April 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

I don't have a link or anything but I thought that it was not just about what the man said, but that he also would not take orders from the president.

That's simply not allowed in our military!

But he would not be getting an order from the President,his orders would come from his next higher command maybe a Lieutenant,which he would no doubt carry out as a member of his team squad,but being a Marine he would not refuse,so I reckon he was just being pretty brassed off when he said what he did,and then some rat grassed him up,and then he's on a charge.I guess his lifes wrecked now being given a dishonorable discharge as he will be "unemployable"..might as well take a long walk off a short pier..

[Euphorbia]

spud the mackem, on 26 April 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

But he would not be getting an order from the President,his orders would come from his next higher command maybe a Lieutenant,which he would no doubt carry out as a member of his team squad,but being a Marine he would not refuse,so I reckon he was just being pretty brassed off when he said what he did,and then some rat grassed him up,and then he's on a charge.I guess his lifes wrecked now being given a dishonorable discharge as he will be "unemployable"..might as well take a long walk off a short pier..

But the president is commander in chief.....of the military. Even though the rules flow downward, the president still has say in how the military is run. Not full say as he has military advisers that he relies on but still.....