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and then, on 30 April 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:
Never? You are free to do something that millions have lived and died without benefit of and you voluntarily chose never to cast a choice for government? I don't understand that.
No, I have never voted. I am still debating whether or not I want to vote in the next election. I mean the more I read the more I understand how my vote probably does not matter. They say every vote matters, but it does not. My district has voted Republican 7 straight elections. Since the president does not win by popular vote, my vote is meaningless in this district. This is a representive democracy and not a true democracy.
Honestly the reason I have not voted is really quite simple. The first election I was old enough to vote was the election in 2004. I had actually just finished basic training and was in tech school. I simply did not want to go through the trouble. The next election, 2008, I was back in Minnesota. Minnesota was a lock for Obama and probably is in this next election. I did not see the need to vote and I did not know enough about more local representatives because I was just back to the state.
I mean we get to vote and all but much of it is just something to make people feel good. I mean its not as bad as in Russia or Iran but very few individual votes matter in most districts when it comes to voting for president. I feel no need to vote just because millions cannot. I mean I could go pickett a soldiers funeral just because I have freedom of speech and millions do not but I do not feel a need to use a right simply because others do not.
Now I would consider voting in more local elections because I believe those have a chance of making a difference in my community. The lower the level, the more important voting is and there is a better chance of things actually getting done.
Capt Amerika, on 30 April 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:
Sounds like a lot of excuses to me.
I grew up absolutely dirt poor. Joined the Military and over the course of 22 years got a College dgree.
Easy? Not even a little bit, but it did set up the next generation in my family.
You will never get people like me to feel sympathetic to those that make excuses.
And as far as forcing the rich to pay more? Have you ever worked for a poor person?
The more you force a person to pay, the more they will cut to keep the margins the same.
And as far as Warren Buffett? if he wants to give it all away to the IRS good for him.
This is America, we dont just stop and obey people like Buffett.
I grew up absolutely dirt poor. Joined the Military and over the course of 22 years got a College dgree.
Easy? Not even a little bit, but it did set up the next generation in my family.
You will never get people like me to feel sympathetic to those that make excuses.
And as far as forcing the rich to pay more? Have you ever worked for a poor person?
The more you force a person to pay, the more they will cut to keep the margins the same.
And as far as Warren Buffett? if he wants to give it all away to the IRS good for him.
This is America, we dont just stop and obey people like Buffett.
No offense here, but are you white? This makes a huge difference and you hit on one of the main points. You set up the next generation for success. I feel like a pretty informed guy but I was truely shocked to learn what a different country this was just a couple of decades ago. The big problem is that this is arguably the first generation when black people have not been severly discriminated against. The time is even less for American Indians. Most minorities have not been set up for success and it is not that simple to say "work harder." I do not have the time or the energy to teach a history class on this topic but it is a very complicated issues that touches many different aspects. I mean if you are truely interested in the topic you can read Racism by Joseph Barndt, White Like Me by Tim Wise, White Privilege by Paula Rothenberg, or my personal favorite Negroes with Guns by Robert F. Williams. In Negroes with Guns Robert F. Williams tells his story as a civil rights leader. The story will blow you away. I mean in the 60s there were still legal lynchings. If you were in the military for 22 years, you were born no later than 1972. That is only 10 years after black people were still being lynched. To compare your hard work to their hard work is insane and incredibly ignorant. American is just in the process of making everyone equal. This is a very new thing.
In your defense, the military is a great option. I also took advantage of that and it has made a huge difference in my life.
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The more you force a person to pay, the more they will cut to keep the margins the same.
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This is America, we dont just stop and obey people like Buffett.
Dredimus, on 30 April 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:
The problem here is... those rich guys earned that $100,000 car... where as the "lower classes" think they are entitled to one. I, Like Capt. Amerika up there, started off in the dirt in a small town in Alabama, and over the last 20 years I have worked to where I am now. The opportunities are out there, and always have been. However, over the last few decades, the government has been more than willing to push the entitlement mentality... if you dont have it, we will give it to you.. and that has never been more evident than in the last 4 years. Don't get me wrong, im all for giving some one a hand up... just not a hand out. If you want welfare/foodstamps/free utilities...etc.. work for them if you are able. I do understand that there are those who are completely unable to work and do need some type of assistance, and im fine with that. However.. im not fine with a good portion of my paycheck going to those who can and wont work, or to a government who spends it in anyway they deem fit.
Read what I said above...
I do agree with you for the most part. There are issues with how our government works and there are tons of people taking advantage of the system. I work at a gas station part time and I see people come in there everyday with their iPhones only to grab chips and candy and pay for them with food stamps, only to take out money and buy scratch offs and smokes. The problem is, what can be done about it? People are always going to take advantage of a system...that is how it works.
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You can try to tear apart the freedom in the US all you want. The only valid arguement that can be given there is... yes... you are free.. for if you had been a citizen of another country and spoke that way about your country... you would have been punished severely. Free Speech is amazing, aint it? Here, you have the FREEDOM to practive what ever religion you would like (though these days it seems that Christians are being vomited on). Here, you have the freedom to work where you want, pick your career and life goals... make your money as YOU see fit... Here, you arent working for a few grains of food instead of money... Im gonna stop beating that drum, because no matter how many times I scream it into the night you wont or cant care. Your views sound a bit more communist than communitarian to me. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". I dont share this view... nor do many of the lower, middle or upper class...
I am not trying to tear apart the freedoms. Many would argue that they are the best in the entire world. I mean I live her by choice...I was only pointing out the myth that this country was some how better during the time of its founding. It took hundreds of years for many of these freedoms to actually come about and we are still struggling with some of them (such as rights for gays.)
Religion is my main area of study and I will tell you that religious freedom is a new thing. The modern understanding of the phrase "a seperation of church and state" was made to oppress Catholics that were trying to get funding for their schools. Also the claim that Christians are being vomited on is total BS. It may appear that way on the internet but it is totally false. According to various polls inbetween 8-13% of people do not believe in a higher power. In the poll that cited 8%, only 1% claimed to be atheists. Atheists are by far the most hated group. Less than half (49%) of Americans would consider voting for an atheist President. The next lowest number was homosexuals at 79%. In the history of Congress there has been only 1 open atheist. My state, Minnesota, elected the first Muslim to congress, though there are now two. There is also a Buddhist. Over 97% of our congress in Christian or Jewish (Jews make up 8%.) This nation is HIGHLY Christian.
Listen, I hear you screaming into the night...the problem is there is a lot you do not understand. We have people starving in this country. We have children that get their only meals from their school lunch. These kids will go all weekend without food because school is not held on the weekends. We act as if hunger is something happening in a distant place but in reality it happens here. I do not expect people to know that because we do a good job of covering it up. I only hope some day that people will figure this out.
Lol there it is...the claim of a communist. I knew someone was going to get me going on this…where to start.
I guess I will start by saying that communism is a flawed philosophy. Marx was a horribly philosopher. I am most familiar with him because of his theories of religion. His problem is he is a fundamental reductionist. Their claims almost always get trashed. First off, the Soviets perverted Marx’s ideas. Marx’s ideas, at the base, were intended for good. He wanted a society free of a class system, where everyone shares everything, where everyone gets paid the same, and where everyone is equal. That is not an inherently evil premise. The problem comes with his logic. He does not take into account human nature. Basically if you do not give people a reason to work hard, they won’t. You mentioned this above with people taking advantage of the system. If everything is given to them, why try? I have personally seen the effects of this type of mentality in Kyrgyzstan. Kyrgyzstan used to be part of the Soviet Union. We currently have a military base there and we pay these people to build stuff for us. Let me tell you…you have not seen lazy until you see these people. They will literally sit around for hours and not do a single thing. Why? Why should they, they are getting paid. This type of philosophy was actually the reason I got off of active duty in the military. In the military everyone is paid the same (if they are of the same rank and have the same relationship status and stuff.) One gets promoted by taking a test (which is also combined with points from decorations and time in grade/service.) Basically, if you are a good test taker, you can get promoted even if you are a horrible worker. We had troops that figured this system out. You would tell them to do something and they would look at you like you were crazy. They would say “why? You going to give me paper work? You going to kick me out?” and they knew the answer to this…unless you commit a felony (basically) you will not get kicked out in 4 years. It is very hard to get “fired” from the military in general. Because of this, they slack off while others pick up the slack for the same pay. They have no incentive to work hard because they can take a test and move up or simply sit where they are. I got off of active duty because I am a hard worker and I am better than that. All I am saying is that Marx’s philosophy is logically invalid and not practical.
With that being said, the communist plan does sound more like America. I mean freedom and equality for all? How is that not communistic? If you take a class in American history you will see that what we preach is closer to communism than it is to what we actually practice. The only reason we people have a negative view of communism was because the Soviet Union was our biggest competition. We wanted to be everything that was anti-USSR. There were some times about their system that was superior. For example, they were the only country not affected by the Great Depression. They were unaffected because everything was internal. The bad taste comes from their evil government, which was very oppressive. They did not follow Marxist philosophy. If you established a government that upheld a superior Constitution (like the modern translation of ours,) I would argue you could create one of the freest people in history…but like I said the logic is not valid and it is not practical.
But am I a Communist? Obviously not…because you guys have already criticized me for promoting equality for everyone, which is the key concept of communism. The very freedoms you promote are the very ones communism gives (under a just government) and obviously our entire discussion is about how I do not agree with them. Under the communistic model your person with a learning disability would be equal to everyone else. I said I do not agree with that (not that they aren’t equal, I just don’t think they should vote…so in a way they aren’t equal.) You think everyone has and should have these basic freedoms. You are more of a communist than I am.
The difference between a communitarian and a communist is that I do not believe everyone should be equal or that everyone should get paid the same. I believe in competition and hard work, I just simply would like to see a level playing field. When I say I am a communitarian that means I am willing to give up some of my time or money to help those in my community in need (I am talking more local and not national.) I am willing to pay more on my taxes to build a park or a school to advance education and help the community. That extra tax money I would put into my community is making a better future for the people that live in it. It is allowing them to gain the education they need to be successful. I personally have a hard time seeing how anyone would argue against that point.
Edited by HuttonEtAl, 03 May 2012 - 01:48 AM.
