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time machine paradox issue


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#16    StarMountainKid

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:18 PM

i think another problem in time travel is that the time machine is not only traveling in time, it would be traveling in space as well. It would have to isolate its own spacetime volume, and move this isolated volume of spacetime somehow to its new location into the past.

I say this because I don't think time and space can be separated. Traveling only in the time dimension, the spatial dimensions would disappear for the machine, so how could the time machine exist at all during its journey with no space for it to occupy?

If the time machine itself travels backward in space as well as in time, what happens when the volume of space it occupies suddenly disappears from its original position in space, then suddenly appears in its new location in space? Two powerful explosions, I imagine. Of course, there could be a buffering system insatlled allowing the machine to gradually change positions.

At any rate, would the energy the volume of space the machine occupies as it travels from one temporal location to another circumvent the law of conservation of energy? The energy contained in the volume of space the machine occupies would disappear from our present universe and appear in our past universe. As energy cannot be created or destroyed, can this energy of spacetime volume be re-located in this temporal way?

It seems to me this would leave a spacetime/energy hole in our present universe, and add the same to our past universe. What would be the consequences of this?

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#17    keninsc

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:18 AM

Unfortunately, I haven't a clue.

There is no law of physics that I know of that says you can't travel in time, at least not yet. By the same token, no one has figured out what the actual mechanics of such an event would be, it's pretty much all theoretical. How other laws of physics would be effected or effect it is hard to say.


#18    SkeletonDisaster

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:02 PM

View Postkeninsc, on 01 May 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

There is a current that suggests that what happens is that there are an infinite number of dimensions and that ever decision we and other make creates new dimensions and all of these dimension coexist at the same time. Which gives me a bit of a headache thinking about all the same and yet different things happening at once. So perhaps there is only the here and now.

i have heared a lot about this and i believe that something olike this could be feesable. But it is honestly hard to comprehend. Just like any other paradox is. But maybe this is one that can also allow science to go back into time and research on anything without the possibly of injuring our current timeline. Problem is, how do we come back to our own timeline? YTou could easily get screwed up and messed up. Time travel should be not only though of as when and where, but as when where and (insert word here that describes both). This could be one of the directions that the fourth dimension holds. and dimension has left, right, forward, and backword. 3rd dimension has left, right, forward, backwords, up, and down, So in theory, the 4th dimmension would have left, right, forward, backword, up, down, and maybe time is actually a direstion? Somewhat like walking from one house to another in your neighborhood, They are similar, but not exact. So maybe in order to use time travel, we need to break into the 4th dimension?

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#19    ChrLzs

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:13 PM

Just to cross your eyes a bit further.. if you think this through, then if time travel is possible we must be existing in pretty much the only timeline in which it hasn't happened.  Because all of the others where it *has* would already know that time travel existed - as soon as a time traveler really appeared, our existence would diverge from this one where it is still being surmised/debated.

Thing is, all these paradoxes and problems with the Earth no longer being there, and you not being able to get back to where you came from, the need for multiple timelines so you could kill yourself, etc ad infinitum can be easily removed by just saying - maybe time travel (except to a limited degree forwards) isn't possible.  

Problems all solved!

So I'm going with Ockham, until shown otherwise.  And if ever shown otherwise, I shall be most interested to learn how these things all work.. :yes:

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#20    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:31 PM

View Postozman, on 28 April 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

In this movie http://www.moviesdig...me-Machine.html
The guy can't save the lady from death by going back in time because he built the time mac
hine after her death.

But I believe if a real life time machine was built then he can save her because since the materials to make the time machine already existed before the machine itself, then why couldn't a person save a life, like RON MALLET is trying to do with the laser light gravity bending time machine he is working on to try and save his father from a heart attack.
Anyone disagree???

I am born, I go to school, I get married, I have a kid, the kid grows up to be a genius, the kid invents a time machine, I get in it and go back and stop myself marrying my wife so the kid is never born. Some think this a paradox but I disagree.

They are totally looking over time loops. From the end if I run time backwards I would go back around the time loop I've created. There is no paradox.


#21    StarMountainKid

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:17 PM

All these comments are interesting to me.  I think there are two ways of looking at this. Is the time traveler when he goes back to his own wedding, as Mr. Right Wing has said, another 'himself' observing his wedding, or is the time traveler actually the groom?

In other words, is the time traveler becoming his younger and younger self as he travels backwards in time, or is he a separate self observing himself in earlier time frames?

If one is becoming one's younger and younger self, then I would think the person would not be able to change anything that he has already done in his life, as in the past time frames he would not know he is a time traveler.

If the above is true except that the time traveler retains his memories he has before he began his time travel, then I don't think this is true time travel, as the person he was in the past would not be the same person who is visiting his past.  In this case, his past would not be his real past because, carrying his future memories with him, he would not be his real past self.

If the time traveler were a separate self observing his past self, I suppose he could sneak around unnoticed and change things that would effect his past self's behavior.  That would lead to a paradox when the time traveler returned to his original time, but while the time traveler is in the past as a separate self observing, for him those changes would not have happened yet, because he is still in the past.

In this scenario, i think it would be impossible for the time traveler to predict the evolution of these changes he has made. For him, it may be better to just remain in the past and go from there. Especially if he had remembered a future winning lottery number in his current future.

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#22    keninsc

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:38 PM

That's the thing really. If you managed to travel back to say.....high school and when you arrive you were back to being the same awkward kid you were and you lost all your previous life experience.......then all youy've done is created a second you with all the same issues and not only that but everyone is going to be noticing the second.......you. At this point you just sort of screwed up the time line because everyone is going to notice and people in high places are going to get involved.

Obviously one of the functions of said time machine will be to preserve your future selfs life experience and knowledge you've gained. All though, It sure would have been nice to have me pop in back in the day and offer some advice based on what had already happened. However then you'd be facing yourself and after hearing what you had to say you'd wonder if you'd lie to yourself. (yes, every pun intended) It is stating to sound like a scene from the first Bill and Ted movie.


#23    RazielKTB

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:47 PM

View Postozman, on 28 April 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

In this movie http://www.moviesdig...me-Machine.html
The guy can't save the lady from death by going back in time because he built the time mac
hine after her death.

But I believe if a real life time machine was built then he can save her because since the materials to make the time machine already existed before the machine itself, then why couldn't a person save a life, like RON MALLET is trying to do with the laser light gravity bending time machine he is working on to try and save his father from a heart attack.
Anyone disagree???

Some time some things are better to be left alone. I am not saying I didn't try what is hipoteticly. But butterfly effect is still in play. When you do that you actualy create another universe... so How would you find a way back to your original universe?


#24    keninsc

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:12 PM

Also......just sort of thinking out loud here.....but suppose that time travel is no so good for your health? Don't know if it is or not, but it could be you have limited travel or numbers of "trips" so to speak. Our bodies really are only design to move one way through time, then suddenly your back forty years....or a hundred years.....or whatever. I'm wondering if maybe we might incur some sort of matter instability? Psychological issues due to the shifting of your place on the old time line, maybe? You might go crazy or you might explode, or everything would be hunky-dory.


#25    FlyingAngel

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 09:57 PM

In quantum physic, by just observing a subject, the outcome is modified


Time is like a flat string. No matter what you do, you'll make it "vibrates" if you interact with it. Image an electric cord, bend it, make it touches the other side of the cord => explosion


#26    keninsc

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:50 AM

I suppose that it's a valid point, however I can't imagine that the timeline is that sensitive. For instance, if you went back in time and stood on the top decks of the Titanic just before the fatal iceberg impact with a night vision FLIR camera and simply videoed the impact and subsequent break up of the ship for historical purposes. Then just before the ship sank completely you "beamed" back, I seriously doubt you'd actually effect the out come by any significant amount. Granted, someone might see you and think that little "thing" you were holding was curious, but odds are they'd be dead in a very short time anyway.

Now, if you went back and tried to warned the Captain, odds are he'd have thought you were out of your mind and he'd have ordered you to the brig. Which would probably be mentioned in passing that there was a madman who the Captain had to have retrained just prior to the impact. Adding an additional footnote to the story.


#27    Low Mage

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:46 AM

Killing Hitler would only allow for another to take his place. In my view there are roles which must be filled irregardless of the person fulfilling that role.


#28    FlyingAngel

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 10:31 AM

View Postkeninsc, on 05 May 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

I suppose that it's a valid point, however I can't imagine that the timeline is that sensitive. For instance, if you went back in time and stood on the top decks of the Titanic just before the fatal iceberg impact with a night vision FLIR camera and simply videoed the impact and subsequent break up of the ship for historical purposes. Then just before the ship sank completely you "beamed" back, I seriously doubt you'd actually effect the out come by any significant amount. Granted, someone might see you and think that little "thing" you were holding was curious, but odds are they'd be dead in a very short time anyway.

Now, if you went back and tried to warned the Captain, odds are he'd have thought you were out of your mind and he'd have ordered you to the brig. Which would probably be mentioned in passing that there was a madman who the Captain had to have retrained just prior to the impact. Adding an additional footnote to the story.
By just warning the captain, you'd change the outcome the events.
Ex: The captain is a beleiver, he believes in time travel, etc... He takes precaution and warns other people, other people warns other people, etc... The ship still sank but there will be more people who survive because they take precautions.

If you let anyone see you, you also change the outcomes.
Ex: someone see you, the call the guards for a suspicious man. Therefore, people changed their location where they're not supposed to be, some are closer to the rescue boat, some are further, etc...

The best way to not interact with everything is to not touch anyone, anything, and do not let anyone see you, like a UFO or a ghost.


#29    S I N

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 05:54 PM

What if time travel created the big bang?

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#30    keninsc

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 01:19 PM

View PostFlyingAngel, on 05 May 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

By just warning the captain, you'd change the outcome the events.
Ex: The captain is a beleiver, he believes in time travel, etc... He takes precaution and warns other people, other people warns other people, etc... The ship still sank but there will be more people who survive because they take precautions.

If you let anyone see you, you also change the outcomes.
Ex: someone see you, the call the guards for a suspicious man. Therefore, people changed their location where they're not supposed to be, some are closer to the rescue boat, some are further, etc...

The best way to not interact with everything is to not touch anyone, anything, and do not let anyone see you, like a UFO or a ghost.

Granted, there would be some minor changes, the question is would those changes be enough to significantly change history? I, personally, don't think the time line is so fragile that just being there will change anything so much as to effect the historical outcome. That's just a personal opinion so feel free to accept or reject at your leisure.

Now in the Hitler scenario, if you kill Hitler as a child or when he was in the trenches of WWI before he made any significant impact then it's very likely that we might avoid WWII, but many significant changes happened as a result of that conflict and brought us to the existence we enjoy now as a result. Now as far as a replacement Hitler goes, unfortunately there seems to be no end to possible replacements for him in the years that have followed. Stalin, Idi Amin, Ferdinand Marcos, just to name a couple who come to mind right off. Without that conflict the present would be significantly altered, so as bad as he was, the end result was better overall for the world.....yes, even with the cold war and the threat of nuclear annihilation that we managed to get through.





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