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EVP and ITC


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#16    TheEVPman

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:00 PM

Honestly, with ITCs often the words are not as clear as we would like. There are many cases of documented studies into ITC and EVP. The idea all in all is to obtain responses to our questions with control words. This is how to properly use the method. Have the "disembodied" respond back using your words or phrases. Again, after 30 yrs of working in the field of EVP. It's safe to say the classes of EVP were developed to show how clear the voices come across. When words are repeated over such a devise on a constant basis... It's goes beyond chance.

Radios have a long history of being used as a possible means of communication with the otherside. During the 2nd WW. A number of radio operators reported the phenomenon of the dead through thier radios. Again, it's possible "they" may use electronics to contact us in some manner.

So, with any device such as a ghostbox. You have to use controls. The best control is haiving them repeat back words and use phrases in thier answers. Will the responses always be clear... NO. With EVP. Class A's are rare. However they are real and well documented. Again, it's the same with a ghost box or other ITC devises.


#17    ChrLzs

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:57 PM

View PostTheEVPman, on 04 May 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

There are many cases of documented studies into ITC and EVP.
Then please post your favorite documented study...  Just one - the best one, in your opinion.

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It's goes beyond chance.
I'm sure the study you cite will back that up.  Or not.

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Radios have a long history of being used as a possible means of communication with the otherside.
Because.. words come out of them? You can play with those words until you get something interesting and apparently/supposedly relevant?

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Again, it's possible "they" may use electronics to contact us in some manner.
It's also possible there is a massive, but invisible, elephant in the room.  In fact I could argue that this is logically FAR more likely.

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So, with any device such as a ghostbox. You have to use controls. The best control is haiving them repeat back words and use phrases in thier answers. Will the responses always be clear... NO.
And THERE's the big problem.  You are using the controls to manipulate the 'data' until you get a result.  This is called Confirmation Bias.  It's not a good thing..  (There's a whole pile of other problems being demonstrated there, but C.B. will do for a start...)

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However they are real and well documented.
You keep saying that.  I challenge it.  Show us the documentation.

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#18    TheEVPman

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 04:39 AM

Honestly, it's simple in some regards. At times the disembodied may want to interact and communicate. Other times, perhaps not... They may want to connect through a ghost box or like devises for ITCs. Or a possible voice recorder. Who can say for sure? If when or where they may do so???

The real question is it possible?


Look up Raudive and his work and studies.

Believe what you will. No matter to me. Experiment and see what happens.

Edited by TheEVPman, 05 May 2012 - 04:43 AM.


#19    ChrLzs

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 10:51 AM

View PostTheEVPman, on 05 May 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

Honestly, it's simple in some regards.
Simple, or is this a deliberately simplistic view?

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At times the disembodied..
What 'disembodied'?  Do you have any evidence, other than this completely circular reasoning, for their existence, before going any further?

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..may want to interact and communicate. Other times, perhaps not...
Do you have some recorded and documented sessions that tell you that, or do you have some other reason to make that claim?  Or is it just a guess?

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They may want to connect through a ghost box or like devises for ITCs.
Or they may not exist at all.  And if they do, what makes them able to use such devices - how do they do that?  Did they just gain electromagnetic powers and the non-human ability to modulate RF signals?  And if they can manipulate RF, *they* must be detectable from their RF/EMF signature in other ways...

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Who can say for sure? If when or where they may do so???
The real question is it possible?
But hang on - earlier you said:

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The results I have been able to obtain are amazing to say the least. The voices are interactive and respond to my many questions. I've not only made contact with my possible loved ones on the otherside, but the loved ones for others as well.
That claim has no provisos whatsoever - you are clearly stating it is happening, but when asked for proof, you give that ridiculous peanut butter link?  And now you say the real question is whether it is possible?

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Look up Raudive and his work and studies.
Gee thanks for the cite... :rolleyes:   But I see no proper study - I see a book author.  What's more, his 'study' dates back to 1971, and was NEVER presented to the scientific community for proper review.  It did not address such basics as confirmation bias, nor falsifiability, nor the null hypothesis, nor the proper use of controls, it is rife with 'cherry-picking'.. and I could go on.

There is a reason that peer review exists, why scientific methodology exists, why the concepts of proper and rigorous testing exist.  There's a reason why people who have a clear bias towards a result should check themselves and present their work for proper scrutiny.

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Believe what you will.
On a topic like this, where people's hopes (and fears and pre-existing beliefs) are being played with, I think belief is a VERY poor guide to truth.

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No matter to me.
It doesn't matter to you???  You've been doing this for over 30 years, including to other people, and it doesn't matter?  It would matter to me if I was a potential client...

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Experiment and see what happens.
And there's a lot of the problem.  Telling people to play with radios and jump them from station to station, or listen to white noise plus RF interference and try really really hard to see if they can hear stuff is EXACTLY and ABSOLUTELY the wrong way to go about this.  Even if you claim confirmation bias isn't an issue, then the invitation to cherry-pick the data is inherent..  Indeed, I'd suggest YOU go and do a bit of research on Confirmation Bias.  Then come back here and tell us how it might affect such 'experimentation', and what would be needed to avoid it.  If you don't, I will.  And that's just one small aspect - the rest of that invisible (or disembodied) elephant is still in the room..

Interestingly, there is a wonderful example of the way confirmation bias (along with cherry-picking)  works to completely destroy the validity of such experimentation on the Wiki page for Raudive.  I quote (emphasis mine):

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... their first efforts bore little fruit, although they believed that they could hear very weak, muddled voices. According to Raudive, however, one night, as he listened to one recording, he clearly heard a number of voices. When he played the tape over and over, he came to believe he understood all of them. He thought some of which were in German, some in Latvian, some in French.

That is probably the most self-damning 'methodology' I have ever had the misfortune to hear.
So initially he had a lot of trouble getting anything, so he had to change his approach...
They only believed they could hear stuff, and even then it was weak and muddled?
It was just ONE recording - of how many - that initially he says he clearly heard a number of voices, and yet it was ONLY after he then played it over and over he again came to believe he understood?

Yet even then it was only after he allowed German, Latvian and French languages into his accepted verification scheme...

I'm sorry, but that is just laughable, and it is immediately followed by Raudive saying how deeply affected he was by someone's death.
No, no confirmation bias there, uhuh, no-o-o way.. :rolleyes:


Like I said, show us a properly documented study.

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#20    TheEVPman

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 01:52 AM

Again, what about the Catholic Church and their study? Again we should undrstand not every experiment with EVP and ITC will produce the voices. All we can try to do for one is obtain interactions. Some times they disembodied respond... Other times we are left to wonder. We can not control the reasons of why they respond at times and other times they won't respond. So, we may or may not obtain data or experiences when conducting experiments. The factors of what produces the voices are unknown to us at this point, when they are truely the disembodied entities. So to say a study didn't produce any results means little. There is no known formula to produce the desired results with EVP and ITCs.


#21    ChrLzs

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:01 AM

View PostTheEVPman, on 06 May 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

Again, what about the Catholic Church and their study?
???

Have you ever had *anything* to do with science or investigation??  That's the second time you have made a handwaving, non-specific reference, and expect others to go chase your reference.  No link, no cite, no name of study.  I'll lay odds that the only references to a genuine Catholic Church study is on evp websites, quoting other evp websites...  If it was really done, where can I see the report on that study?

It seems you don't want people to look at your 'evidence'.  Given the nature of that last lot, it is no wonder.

The fact is that you haven't addressed a single issue in regard to confirmation bias, cherry picking and the myriad other problems with this stuff - which tells all that is needed to know.

This is unsupported garbage - and is taking advantage of people's sadness, emotions and desires in the worst traditions of snake-oil.

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#22    TheEVPman

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 04:51 PM

Why don't you research? here's the two names of the priests who conducted the Vatican's study into EVP. The Vatican gave permission for priests to conduct their own research into EVP. Father Leo Schmid had actually been assigned a small parish in Oeschegen, Switzerland, in 1967 to give him time to experiment with recording the mysterious voices discovered by Fathers Ernetti and Gemelli. He collected more than 10,000 voices, many of which were published in his book Wen Die Toten Reden (When the Dead Speak)


I guess you don't know how to research and find things on your own?

After all, you can't seem to understand how dealing with the voices and recording them is something we can't explain or control. So based on your thoughts if no recording captures the voices it must be flawed. Anyone who knows anything about conducting experiement knows you must have controls in place and understand the factors which influence the out come. We have none of this with EVP or ITC. This is exactly what folks fail to see! WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER ANY OF IT!

So, if they voices speak "polygot", why????????

With the paranormal there are no known controls.... After all isn't this why we call it, "PARANORMAL"


#23    ChrLzs

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:19 PM

View PostTheEVPman, on 06 May 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

Why don't you research?
I DID. Unfortunately for you.

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here's the two names of the priests who conducted the Vatican's study into EVP.
It was NOT, I repeat NOT a 'Vatican study'.  Withdraw that claim or prove it.

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The Vatican gave permission for priests to conduct their own research into EVP.
And that makes it a Vatican Study?  If it was, where's the Vatican REPORT?  Where are the actual terms of the 'permission' they supposedly gave?

Let me REQUOTE you:

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what about the Catholic Church and their study
YOU said it was a Catholic Church study.  It was NOT.  Like I said, it's no wonder you like all this 'having no controls' and being something 'we can't explain'.

But I'm afraid that DOES NOT give you the right to make up stuff and falsely claim that the Catholic Church has done an official study or officially agreed that EVP exists.

It hasn't.  It doesn't.  Do not claim otherwise without EVIDENCE that comes from a credible source - in this case that would be the Vatican.  I'll wait.

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Father Leo Schmid had actually been assigned a small parish in Oeschegen, Switzerland, in 1967 to give him time to experiment with recording the mysterious voices discovered by Fathers Ernetti and Gemelli.
And as I said before - where is the REPORT on that study?  What controls were there?  What scientific training did these two have?

Where is the Vatican statement on this 'study' or the 'approval' that was given?  (And may I say, yes, I've seen the statement that you will probably roll out next, but before you present it - was this a sanctioned statement on official Vatican policy? Does it refer to EVP, these priests, or any sanctioned study?  Don't bring stuff here that you don't want to be properly scrutinised)

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I guess you don't know how to research and find things on your own?
Backatcha.

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After all, you can't seem to understand how dealing with the voices and recording them is something we can't explain or control.
Oh, I fully understand.  So that means no attempt should be made?  Or that you can make stuff up about sanctioned studies?

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So based on your thoughts if no recording captures the voices it must be flawed.
That's simplistic, but not far from the truth.  But didn't you say you had proof? WHERE IS IT?  If you have gathered this evidence properly (and let's be honest - you haven't, have you?), why would you not present that evidence in a form that can be examined - in a form that has at least some semblance of attention to detail, and that the methodology you have used is sound?  That's what I used to do regularly when working in the sciences.  It's quite easy..  And necessary.

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Anyone who knows anything about conducting experiement{sic} knows you must have controls in place and understand the factors which influence the out come.
Yes.  We do.

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We have none of this with EVP or ITC. This is exactly what folks fail to see! WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER ANY OF IT!
What?  You haven't even gone close to justifying that statement.  Please do so.

If you don't, or can't, would you like me to give you an example of what you SHOULD be doing?  I'll be happy to do so, and then I'll be fascinated to see your excuses justifying why you can't do it.  You might be surprised at how easy most of it is..

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So, if they voices speak "polygot", why????????
Yes, why indeed?  I'll tell you - the more languages you allow (why not throw in Inuit, Portugese, Sanskrit?) the more possible hits!  Win - win!!

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With the paranormal there are no known controls...
And as Maxwell Smart would observe - you're LOVING IT.  :rolleyes:

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#24    TheEVPman

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:49 AM

Once again, do your own research. Contact the Vatican I don't care. I never said I have PROOF. You seem to lack or do lack the ability to understand my first post. All I can say is. EVP and ITC research is well documented!

On the point, I've been able to make contact with voices that claim to be passed over loved ones. I can't say from where the voices come from. All we know is they are disembodied and respond to our questions NO MORE! Some times it works other times it don't. Why??? BECAUSE IT"S THE PARANORMAL!

Are we able to understand all the factors involved???? NO! So until we do. We can't produce the results like we could in a petri dish with an experiment! WOW!!! Maybe your lack of reason can grasp this!!!! It's that simple! ( seems you don't know or understand or how to apply science methods with unknown factors and come to same ends each time! it's impossible)



Research EVP and ITC for yourself!  PROVE THE VATICAN DIDN"T DO THE STUDIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I gave you some sources to investigate... You didn't so....  So, did or didn't the Vatican do the research? Look it up for yourself... I did!

Have a wonderful day M8.

Edited by TheEVPman, 07 May 2012 - 01:35 AM.


#25    mysticeyes71

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 01:07 AM

I am new to this whole arena and have gotten to experience some EVP and ITC work first hand. I am a forensic investigator so I am more skeptical than most. I know that I have been intrigued and continue to do more and more research as I learn. Some sites that have helped me as well as my own encounters and trials are:

http://atransc.org/research.htm

http://www.evpuk.com/

http://evp-itcresear....com/index.html

http://www.ruhaunted...unicating7.html

http://www.victorzammit.com/


#26    ChrLzs

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:29 PM

View PostTheEVPman, on 07 May 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

I never said I have PROOF.
Indeed.  You don't even have evidence.  Which is why I reject it.

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All I can say is. EVP and ITC research is well documented!
And you have failed to provide any credible research.  Yet all I have asked for is a proper report on one of the claimed studies (please see below for 'Burden Of Proof' before you whine some more about me doing your research for you)..

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Are we able to understand all the factors involved???? NO! So until we do. We can't produce the results like we could in a petri dish with an experiment!
Why are you focusing on just one of the many reasons that this is garbage?  (Rhetorical question - if you think a petri dish is relevant, then I think it's obvious you aren't on the same page..)

The fact is that you have completely and deliberately ignored the main issues, namely Confirmation Bias, and Cherry Picking of data.  It's very obvious why that is.

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PROVE THE VATICAN DIDN"T DO THE STUDIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh, those capitals and repeated exclamation marks certainly make your point - they just scream credibility.  :rolleyes:   Anyway, thank you for verifying the inevitable - you don't understand the most basic tenet of them all - that of Burden Of Proof.  You made the claim about the Catholic Church.  You need to back it up, or consider it busted and withdrawn.
Look that concept up after Confirmation Bias and Cherry Picking.  Then tell me again I'm the one who doesn't understand science...


To mysticeyes, welcome.
As a forensic investigator, you know exactly why the issues of controls, falsifiability and the null hypothesis (amongst others) would be of vital importance in this field.  Can you outline how your own experiments have addressed those issues?

Also, of those five links, is there one you find most compelling, comprehensive?  Do any of them include peer-reviewed, published studies?  Do any of them include reports on studies, that show how they have addressed those issues?

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#27    TheEVPman

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 01:56 PM

You miss the points. RESEARCH FOR YOURSELF! You haven't.

All I have done is tried to share my reults. (Science can't explain in particular disembodied voices answering questions with control words and phrases)

I given you names and writtings to look up and see what those people who have experimented found. ( You didn't)

It's that plain and simple....

Then you want to apply science to the unknown....And expect results in condition we don't know or understand!

So, again go research for yourself and investigate. If you were any kind of investigator, you would question, get what info you could.  Afterwards look into what the facts are without bias... ( Find out for yourself)

BTW I was an investigator on the OKC Bombing... So, I know how to investigate and have done so.

Take care M8.


#28    CakeOrDeath

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 04:41 PM

EVPman, I'm sorry, now you are back tracking and trying to say, you never said there was proof or evidence.  In your first post in the thread you say you've had "Amazing results" and you have contacted deceased family members of yourself and others.

Now you are saying, there's really no evidence, just some documentation out there that "WE" should research, so we can feel better about your post?  30 years at it, I'm thinking you should be the one being like "guys I've put 30 solid years in and let my show the amazing stuff I've discovered..." instead we get...."peeee nuuut burder..."   Of all of your "amazing" results that's the best and most convincing snippet you could put on your site?

While fully fakeable, it would have been alot more interesting if you put something like "what year did you die.."  and got like "Sept 12th 1975" or something.

I "believe" in paranormal and extra-sensory experiences, things our little brains can't fully grasp, but EVP/ITC seems like blatant BS, worse than Ouija Board stuff.  I mean come on, you are using random voices to produce ...voices.

I'm sure this will turn into another "zomg the skeptics are bullies" thread, but when you come into a place where there are believers and offer them hope, you better have some proof to go along with the hope.

What time is it? "peeas nuh burder" and Jelly time!

#29    orangepeaceful79

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 04:49 PM

View PostCakeOrDeath, on 07 May 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:


I'm sure this will turn into another "omg the skeptics are bullies" thread, but when you come into a place where there are believers and offer them hope, you better have some proof to go along with the hope.

Here's the thing though.  If EVPman is only marketing his services to believers then he doesn't need proof.  Proof is just a side issue with believers.  All that matters to that crowd is that whatever they are experiencing/reading about validates what they already have decided upon.


#30    CakeOrDeath

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 05:57 PM

Orange, I have to disagree, my father passed away suddenly, when I was still fairly "impressionable" he was young 47,  at the time we were working through some life issues and finally communicating really well, then boom, dead.  I was still in my later teens, if someone, older, using fairly scientific terms and quoting "vactican studies" came along offering me a chance to talk to my father I might have bit.  You may say, "what's the harm" but mr EVP delivering me the "wrong" message from my father could have had significant effect on my life moving forward.

See what I mean? I wasn't a "believer" or "skeptic" just a sad kid looking for guidance/closure.

What time is it? "peeas nuh burder" and Jelly time!




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