195 replies to this topic

[HeartsAreForBreaking]

Well, this is just my understanding of it, but for one thing, if God is real, whether he be one entity or composed of a number of parts, he's not secular, is he? It says in the bible that God can be in many places at once, so who's to say that Jesus can't be God, even if he was on earth? Perhaps one way to consider it could be that Jesus was simply an enfleshed projection of God as a spiritual entity? I think for at least myself personally, it'd be hard for me, being of a finite mind, to understand an infinite concept such as God

[Knight Of Shadows]

yeah i reliaze god can be in more than one place at same time but you're missing the point here
that if jesus is enfleshed projection of God as you describe .. then from that line from the bible i posted ... to whom he's ascending then ?
he clearly not talking about him self he state he's ascending to " his " god .. so if he's enfleshed projection of God .. who he was talking about ?

[J. K.]

Try this.

Imagine someone who lives on the inside of a sphere.  All he can see is the curved surface that surrounds him.  He also sees three holes on which lead somewhere that he can't imagine, since all he knows is the inside volume of the sphere.

One day as he is looking at the holes and is wondering what is beyond them, three beings appear through the holes.  They resemble each other, but also have their own unique characteristics.  The sphere inhabitant perceives them as individuals.

Now imagine that the sphere is actually a bowling ball, and you have just stuck your fingers in it.  Your fingers are all part of your hand, and part of you, even though they look separated to the sphere's inhabitant.

In the same way, God lives outside of the world that we can see.  We can interact with Him in different ways - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - but each is still God.

[TheNightOwl]

I

J. K., on 30 April 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

Try this.

Imagine someone who lives on the inside of a sphere.  All he can see is the curved surface that surrounds him.  He also sees three holes on which lead somewhere that he can't imagine, since all he knows is the inside volume of the sphere.

One day as he is looking at the holes and is wondering what is beyond them, three beings appear through the holes.  They resemble each other, but also have their own unique characteristics.  The sphere inhabitant perceives them as individuals.

Now imagine that the sphere is actually a bowling ball, and you have just stuck your fingers in it.  Your fingers are all part of your hand, and part of you, even though they look separated to the sphere's inhabitant.

In the same way, God lives outside of the world that we can see.  We can interact with Him in different ways - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - but each is still God.

That's a great analogy, J. K.

Here's another one: Think of three lit torches. One torch is the Father, the next torch is the Son, and the third torch is the Holy Spirit. Now imagine those three torches held together to form one flame. That one flame is God.

[Knight Of Shadows]

J. K., on 30 April 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

Try this.

Imagine someone who lives on the inside of a sphere.  All he can see is the curved surface that surrounds him.  He also sees three holes on which lead somewhere that he can't imagine, since all he knows is the inside volume of the sphere.

One day as he is looking at the holes and is wondering what is beyond them, three beings appear through the holes.  They resemble each other, but also have their own unique characteristics.  The sphere inhabitant perceives them as individuals.

Now imagine that the sphere is actually a bowling ball, and you have just stuck your fingers in it.  Your fingers are all part of your hand, and part of you, even though they look separated to the sphere's inhabitant.

In the same way, God lives outside of the world that we can see.  We can interact with Him in different ways - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - but each is still God.

am not sure i follow but at the end are you referring that there's 3 gods ? each one of them is god ?
or are they all same one god in different forms ?
and how does that explain jesus saying he's ascending to HIS god .. can god .. have a god too ?
is jesus the god ? and holy spirit is god ? and the father is god ? this is 3 gods so there's 3 gods ? is that what you tried to say at the end ?
3 gods but all of them lead the same way ?

[Knight Of Shadows]

TheNightOwl, on 30 April 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

I

That's a great analogy, J. K.

Here's another one: Think of three lit torches. One torch is the Father, the next torch is the Son, and the third torch is the Holy Spirit. Now imagine those three torches held together to form one flame. That one flame is God.

but unfortunatly we're not talking about torches we talking about a person .. or god as you may say that was living and breathing , talking too and refered to mother mary not to cling to him as he's going to ascend to His god .. so who is that god he's going to ascend to
if jesus is god then who was he talking about in that line ?

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

God is so 'big' (for want of a better word) that any word' words or ideas we use to describe God only serve to limit the 'bigness' of God so our brains can understand God. The Trinity is like that, three different thnigs that are all part of God' distinct parts of him but till part of him. Like how your hand, your foot and yor hair are distinct parts of you but stil part of you.

Alternatively, God is the Father, Jeseus is the Son and the Holy Spirit is the spark of the divine within all of us. All dinstinct, but all connected. At least in C#tholic theology this idea is amewhat heretical though - it goes back to the Council of Nicea. Heretical in that it says Jesus is less divine the God, while prevailing Doctirne is that Jesus is as divine as God.

[3.0]

The Roman Catholic Church says that the Trinity is three persons, but one God.  They all have the same spiritual essence, but three individuals.  Jesus is held to be human, and Divine; therefore he can say "Your God and my God."  Since as a human being his father is his God; but as  one of the persons of the Trinity he also is God himself.

Edited by 3.0, 30 April 2012 - 10:22 PM.

[Knight Of Shadows]

Wearer of Hats, on 30 April 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

God is so 'big' (for want of a better word) that any word' words or ideas we use to describe God only serve to limit the 'bigness' of God so our brains can understand God. The Trinity is like that, three different thnigs that are all part of God' distinct parts of him but till part of him. Like how your hand, your foot and yor hair are distinct parts of you but stil part of you.

Alternatively, God is the Father, Jeseus is the Son and the Holy Spirit is the spark of the divine within all of us. All dinstinct, but all connected. At least in C#tholic theology this idea is amewhat heretical though - it goes back to the Council of Nicea. Heretical in that it says Jesus is less divine the God, while prevailing Doctirne is that Jesus is as divine as God.

so you're saying that there's one god .. and the holy spirit and jesus are like part of it .. but not gods .. divine yes but not really gods just part of the  One god ?
sorry but am getting all those different ideas so did i put it right ?

[Star of the Sea]

Hi,

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

P.S. I think that was what Keven was referring to about you looking at John's Gospel.

Edited by Star of the Sea, 30 April 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[Knight Of Shadows]

3.0, on 30 April 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

The Roman Catholic Church says that the Trinity is three persons, but one God.  They all have the same spiritual essence, but three individuals.  Jesus is held to be human, and Divine; therefore he can say "Your God and my God."  Since as a human being his father is his God; but as  one of the persons of the Trinity he also is God himself.

so jesus is different from god " the father " and he's not the same person .. so there's two gods .. not to mention the holy spirit
therefore we got jesus = son ... father = god .. and holy spirit is it another person on the trinity also a god ?
then it's not one god they're 3 .. who made who ? if the father made the son .. then where the holy spirit stand in this who made him ?

[Knight Of Shadows]

Star of the Sea, on 30 April 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

Hi,

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

P.S. I think that was what Keven was referring to about you looking at John's Gospel.

but the thing is it's not that only line .. take this other line for example

"
7 Last Words of Jesus "

Luke 23:34
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Matthew 27:46 (also Mark 15:34)
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

----------------------------------------------

am not sure about the last one though but
in all of those lines jesus was talking to the father " which is god " which is not jesus so he can't be the god if he was talking to god in his final hour
so who he was talking to if he was god then he must have been addressing someone !

[Paranoid Android]

Knight Of Shadows, on 30 April 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

therefore i'll start simple : the trinity from what i got from christians is
the father , son , holy spirit are the same person .. or entity in other words god
is that true ?

From the Christian point of view, and speaking specifically of myself as a conservative protestant, the answer to your question is both yes and no.  It is true that the father, the son and the holy spirit are the same person.  But at the same time it is true that they are separate and distinct beings.  This is what "3-in-1" means.  It's not as simple as saying The three are one, it is also true that the one is three.  Jesus is indeed 100% entirely an totally God.  The Father is also entirely and 100% God.  But they are the one being, they are distinct but not separate.

I notice in your other posts that you seem very interested in picking every little hole wherever you see it, so I'm going to preface my statement here by stating that if you are wanting someone here to give you a 100% perfect analogy to help you understand what the Christians believe then you are wasting your time.  It won't happen.  Some in this thread have tried analogies and while they work on some level of understanding they are not perfect.  The Trinity is a unique concept.

* The Father is greater than the Son!
* The Father and the Son are one!

Being just one example.  Both statements are true.

I'm sorry if I can't be of more help.  I don't desire to provide further avenues for you to pick holes and argue, I'm just sharing what it is that we Christians believe (despite the fact that no single person on earth can 100% explain it).

~ Regards,

Edited by Paranoid Android, 01 May 2012 - 12:06 AM.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Knight Of Shadows, on 30 April 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

so you're saying that there's one god .. and the holy spirit and jesus are like part of it .. but not gods .. divine yes but not really gods just part of the  One god ?
sorry but am getting all those different ideas so did i put it right ?

Spot on.
There is one God, but he wears many different 'hats' when the moment calls for it.

[Knight Of Shadows]

Paranoid Android, on 01 May 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

From the Christian point of view, and speaking specifically of myself as a conservative protestant, the answer to your question is both yes and no.  It is true that the father, the son and the holy spirit are the same person.  But at the same time it is true that they are separate and distinct beings.  This is what "3-in-1" means.  It's not as simple as saying The three are one, it is also true that the one is three.  Jesus is indeed 100% entirely an totally God.  The Father is also entirely and 100% God.  But they are the one being, they are distinct but not separate.

I notice in your other posts that you seem very interested in picking every little hole wherever you see it, so I'm going to preface my statement here by stating that if you are wanting someone here to give you a 100% perfect analogy to help you understand what the Christians believe then you are wasting your time.  It won't happen.  Some in this thread have tried analogies and while they work on some level of understanding they are not perfect.  The Trinity is a unique concept.

* The Father is greater than the Son!
* The Father and the Son are one!

Being just one example.  Both statements are true.

I'm sorry if I can't be of more help.  I don't desire to provide further avenues for you to pick holes and argue, I'm just sharing what it is that we Christians believe (despite the fact that no single person on earth can 100% explain it).

~ Regards,

well i'd certinally argue with that and find holes that's what i meant by debate but since you said you have no desire in arguement
then i won't take it any further with you .. thanks for sharing what you know