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Caput 58m

knights templar severed head veneration caput 58m caput lviiim

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#1    Coyote Speaks

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 01:38 AM

Hey UMers,

A quick search of the forum showed that this topic was brought up before, but in conjunction with Egyptian Monotheism rather than just in relation to the Templar's themselves.  I realize the connection between Holy Bood and Holy Grail here, and I apologize a bit for that in advance.

I'm curious as to whether or not any of you UMers have thoughts on the severed head veneration that the Knight's Templar supposedly practiced.  The Inquisition records supposedly held information on Caput 58m, that the Templar's used to worship.

Is it generally thought that the Knight's Templar worshiped John the Baptist?  Is there thought about the head possibly being an automaton?  Made up out of whole cloth?  I'm curious as to whether or not this was practiced elsewhere.

Come on, UMers.  You've never failed to amaze me with the breadth of good information that you all present, as well as the depth of the analysis that you all give.  I'm quite curious what you all shall say on this. :)


#2    sickpuppy

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 05:13 PM

wasn't this charge levied at them by the vatican in the purge?

meh know knows.. maybe Ed Gein can offer some insights?

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#3    Conrad Clough

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 06:46 PM

The templars worshiping John the Babtist is a currently popular theory, but its not really supported by anthing more than some flimsy circumstantial evidence.Since the church eventually absolved them of the charge of heresy (albeit long after the templars were defunct and the church and king of france had split much of thier famed treasure amonst themselves), I tend to think that the whole three faced Baphomet worhsiped as severed head thing was a baseless charge against them to justify thier destruction at the hands of jealous rivals that lusted after thier wealth.


#4    Taun

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 08:00 PM

One theory I heard was that the Templars at one time possessed the Shroud of Turin - though it wasn't called that at the time - and kept it folded so that only the head of the image was visible...

Thus the 'severed head' veneration...

Don't know if this is true or not - just what i heard on TV once...


Edited by Taun, 01 May 2012 - 08:00 PM.


#5    Coyote Speaks

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:01 PM

View Postunit, on 01 May 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

wasn't this charge levied at them by the vatican in the purge?

meh know knows.. maybe Ed Gein can offer some insights?

I believe it was, though the next post here says that it was lifted a bit later... Hm.


#6    Coyote Speaks

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:04 PM

View PostConrad Clough, on 01 May 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

The templars worshiping John the Babtist is a currently popular theory, but its not really supported by anthing more than some flimsy circumstantial evidence.Since the church eventually absolved them of the charge of heresy (albeit long after the templars were defunct and the church and king of france had split much of thier famed treasure amonst themselves), I tend to think that the whole three faced Baphomet worhsiped as severed head thing was a baseless charge against them to justify thier destruction at the hands of jealous rivals that lusted after thier wealth.

From what I had been reading it was said that there was severed head veneration, but the Baphomet extrapolations from it were largely baseless.  I'd been reading a little about the severed head veneration and had actually come across the theory that the head itself was an automaton, which I found interesting, though also quite doubtful.

I would agree that a great number of the charges levied against the Templars were either misunderstandings (sort of like the 'pagans' calling the Christians cannibals due to communion practices) or made out of whole cloth.  Interesting to discuss, though. :)

View PostTaun, on 01 May 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

One theory I heard was that the Templars at one time possessed the Shroud of Turin - though it wasn't called that at the time - and kept it folded so that only the head of the image was visible...

Thus the 'severed head' veneration...

Don't know if this is true or not - just what i heard on TV once...


I'd n

View PostTaun, on 01 May 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

One theory I heard was that the Templars at one time possessed the Shroud of Turin - though it wasn't called that at the time - and kept it folded so that only the head of the image was visible...

Thus the 'severed head' veneration...

Don't know if this is true or not - just what i heard on TV once...


That's actually one of the theories that I hadn't heard.  I do know that there's a separate shroud that only had the image of the head upon it - don't quite recall the name of it, but I could look up more information on it for you if you'd like. :)


#7    Batfastard

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:04 PM

Another interesting aside here is that in 1943 a panel painting was discovered in a Manor House called Templecombe in Somerset, England. Templecombe was a Preceptory of the Knights Templar in the Somerset area from 1185 to the early fourteenth century when it was given to St Johns Hospitallers. This painting appears to be a suspended head which has a remarkable likeness to the Shroud of Turin.

The painting has been carbon dated to approx 1280 which gives credence to the rumours that the Shroud was housed with the Knights Templar during the 'Missing years':

Posted Image

edited - terrible spelling!

Edited by Batfastard, 02 May 2012 - 03:05 PM.


#8    DieChecker

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 06:13 AM

View PostCoyote Speaks, on 01 May 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

Hey UMers,

A quick search of the forum showed that this topic was brought up before, but in conjunction with Egyptian Monotheism rather than just in relation to the Templar's themselves.  I realize the connection between Holy Bood and Holy Grail here, and I apologize a bit for that in advance.
Was that supposed to be a Link? It was not active for me.

I thought is was Holy Rood, with an R. A section of wood from the True Cross.

Quote

I'm curious as to whether or not any of you UMers have thoughts on the severed head veneration that the Knight's Templar supposedly practiced.  The Inquisition records supposedly held information on Caput 58m, that the Templar's used to worship.
I believe it was all made up. The King of France, Phillip IV, working with the French Pope, Clement V, leveled the various charges to wipe out the powerful organization preemptively and to also grab up their treasury. Philip at least owed the Templars a lot of money, and the Templars owned a very sizable bit of French soil. Lots of Motive.

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Quote

Is it generally thought that the Knight's Templar worshiped John the Baptist?  Is there thought about the head possibly being an automaton?  Made up out of whole cloth?  I'm curious as to whether or not this was practiced elsewhere.
Saint John is a real Catholic Saint, isn't he? Catholics can pray to him for intercession in various things, right?

Interestingly he is also the Patron Saint of the Freemasons and the Hospitallers.

I've never heard of the Head being mechanical.  But, I've never made a study of the subject.

Quote

Come on, UMers.  You've never failed to amaze me with the breadth of good information that you all present, as well as the depth of the analysis that you all give.  I'm quite curious what you all shall say on this. :)
I tried.... :tu:

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#9    Conrad Clough

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:30 PM

Quote

Was that supposed to be a Link? It was not active for me.
I am guessing book title (at least I know there is a book by that name.... http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/0440136482)


#10    Coyote Speaks

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:30 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 03 May 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

Was that supposed to be a Link? It was not active for me.

I thought is was Holy Rood, with an R. A section of wood from the True Cross.


I believe it was all made up. The King of France, Phillip IV, working with the French Pope, Clement V, leveled the various charges to wipe out the powerful organization preemptively and to also grab up their treasury. Philip at least owed the Templars a lot of money, and the Templars owned a very sizable bit of French soil. Lots of Motive.

If someone is holding a white hot iron to your feet, or other tender bits, it is remarkable what you will confess to just at the hope of the end of the pain.


Saint John is a real Catholic Saint, isn't he? Catholics can pray to him for intercession in various things, right?

Interestingly he is also the Patron Saint of the Freemasons and the Hospitallers.

I've never heard of the Head being mechanical.  But, I've never made a study of the subject.


I tried.... :tu:

Thank you very much :)  I agree that there was a good deal of motive behind the accusations and the like, but the severed head still quite intrigues me.  The automaton comment I made up there was related to a story I heard once about a Pope having in his possession a mechanical head that could answer yes or no questions.  Could look it up if you'd be interested in that, though I'm uncertain as to whether or not that was even in the proper time frame to be considered Caput 58m.  

Holy Blood, Holy Grail is a book, hence the underline.  It's a rather.. poorly researched book that has been lambasted here several times before.  It was also source material for the bulk of The Da Vinci Code for the most part.  Hence the apology that accompanied it.

John the Baptist worship is interesting to me - one of the oldest religions that is still being practiced today (i.e. uninterrupted practice) is that of the Madeans if I'm not mistaken - John the Baptist worship. :)





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