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Look Mama, no diamond saw

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#631    Oniomancer

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 08:11 PM

View PostTime Spy, on 16 June 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Maybe you just missed the last post from Kmt.  The evidence is not gone.  Steel rusted into oxidation. Iron has been utilitzed,may times.  Harte is about as funny as a box of rocks.  A good laugh might do himm good.  Nevertheless, he can't even put in his two cents worth in a direct quote.  It's easier to just 'ignore the truth' and anyone in disagreement with the mindset, so what? Hogwash, I say get over yourselves.  The early days of the first Egyptian dynasties forged iron, whether it was fromm asteroids or the ground potential no matter.  It was for a short period in history turned into steel, used as tools, and it IS GONE.  Most reamining impliments were made into weapons and while some remanufactured to the best of the ability of those later generations, it is still mostly all gone from a representation of the originality.

There are several difficulties with this.

First, there's the beads Kmt mentioned. 5 millenia and these tiny little things didn't rust away to nothing. Given the same conditions, a bulkier item experiencing the same rate of corrosion should still leave some significant traces then even after another 5 millenia.

Second, there's the artifact from the shaft itself. If it does in fact date from the construction of the pyramid and if that date is as old as claimed, The fact that it exists at all would tend to argue against the complete destruction of all such artifacts from the period.

Third, there's kmt's point about traces of rust. Iron, once oxidized, cannot oxidize further, so traces of even complete disintegrated iron artifacts remain in the soil as anomalous patches of rust.  It has been possible in many archeological deigs to virtually reconstruct artifacts entirely from the shape of the rust traces left behind. If nothing else, the very presence of the rust speaks to the former presence of an iron artifact, yet we find none. One would think at the very least such a valued material would make it's way into grave goods even if scarce and certainly if not, given the other sorts of commodities which did.

Fourth, This is getting away from the apparent evidence of bronze usage in relation to stone cutting. If they were using iron or full-blown steel, why are there traces of verdigris in the various borings, etc, but not the aforementioned rust?

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#632    Time Spy

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 09:23 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 16 June 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

Oh, I'm listening, Time Spy. I read every word of every post you direct at me (and in this case I don't have much to say for the second paragraph in your last reply to me, because frankly I have no idea what it's supposed to mean).

But SHOUTING isn't making your argument any clearer or more convincing. You're claiming iron was forged from the "early days of the first Egyptian dynasties" and yet there is no evidence to suggest this. Then you say the "evidence from that time has rusted away and is gone," so how do you know iron was produced in the Early Bronze Age if there's nothing at all left to prove that? Your own argument is self-defeating.

Given that you're not an archaeologist with field experience in Egypt, nor a researcher specializing in metallurgy of the Near East Bronze Age, your word alone is insufficient—even when SHOUTED, believe it or not. Something written wrong and something SHOUTED wrong is still wrong, regardless of volume (LOL I think you get the idea that typing in caps is a pet peeve of mine). This said, you're still claiming that it's a fact that the early Egyptians were producing iron, so it is incumbent upon you to present to us the research of a specialist which corroborates your claim. Your word alone cannot do it.

Can you hear me now?

KMT, I'm not shouting at you.  I told you this once before.  Capitalization is an emphasis on the point I'm trying to make, so to make myself understood.  Shouting is changing the size of the font to huge and then adding exclamation points.  I keep telling you that your input is unique and apreciated.  I have to admit sometimes I have trouble desciphering the arguments between yourself and Scott.  Your the expert in later day dynasty arifacts.  I just 'see' things in 'my own' perspective.  You know what I mean.  Oviously you and others such as Purifier (who I commend on his respectful response in agreement to disagree) have mad this quite clear.  However, find them or not there are others who believe that the ancient dynasties responsible for construction of these great monoliths were not only more endowed than their predescessors in the use of steel, but were also physically far superior.   Linking you to those who agree just start threads that we have agreed to disagree upon already.  I don't know what else to say.

The point of the second paragraph that you didn't understand comes right out of the last chapter of my book TIMEDRIVE.  It seems as a metaphor, that when all else is about to fail and those who are seemingly winning the game, don't see that the defense knows what's coming and is already convinced of a win, even when it looks like all else has failed.  Next thing you know, game over, and EVERYONE has to 'go back' and take that 'little look' themselves at the 'game tape', somewhat like one more flash of a brilliant white light as the camera refocuses on the scene and the space time continuum hesitates in replay.  Just a thought to reconsider.


#633    Time Spy

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 09:26 PM

View PostJon101, on 16 June 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Time Spy, you are shamefully blind to the truth, and have a capacity to hand-wave away evidence that is more monumental than Khufu's pyramid.  It has become apparent that no matter how erudite or explanatory the evidence that better minds than your own helpfully pass your way, you will continually move the goalposts and blither in an ever more shrill and self-congratulatory fashion.

Threads like this can be very educational and interesting, yet they have to be spoiled by the I-know-better-than-the-evidence/facts/demonstrable truth/evidence from the culture itself/etc crowd, which you,through obstinate intransigence or stupidity, embody. And it is not a position you should be proud of.

Here's a thought for you newcomer.  The only one interested in the 'goalposts' would be those ready to kick'.  I'm looking at the opposite goal line.  Untell you get a better understanding to what the hell I'm even talking about, (and have read the playbook thread after thread throughout the forum...), why not just sit the sidelines and watch the game from a fans point of view.  Once you become a veteran and know what you're actually up against then go beg the coach to come in for your chance to get slammed.

Edited by Time Spy, 16 June 2012 - 09:36 PM.


#634    jules99

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 09:41 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 15 June 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

I'm at work and don't have access to my library so I'm working from memory, as well as from my experience with the two Egyptian exhibits in Chicago where I work as a docent. I'm not sure if you're aware of it, jules99, but a lot of drill points have in fact been found. They range in composition from flint to diorite (the latter of which would've been the kind used to drill out the coffers of sarcophagi). We have examples of these on display at both museums.

Saws are certainly rarer but as I recall some examples have been recovered in archaeological excavations (I don't believe either of the museums in which I work have examples in their collections, however). Just the same, numerous depictions on tomb walls show men using saws. They're depicted cutting everything from wood to stone. The noticeable difference is, saws for cutting wood have teeth while those for stone do not. Abrasives were used with stone-cutting saws.

I wouldn't trust Dunn's conclusions with these things. The Rosetta Stone is Ptolemaic in date and thus by this point iron tools and technology had been introduced into Egypt, but where is the evidence for the powering and mechanics of such a saw? There's a lot more to it than just a blade. How was the blade used?
Hi kmt_sesh

Sorry for the delay in replying

"Since no actual drilling tube has ever been discovered in Egypt, the material used for the tubes remains unknown."

http://hbar.phys.msu...nold/arnold.htm

I think its surmised from residue found that the tube drills were made from bronze or copper..

Also I remember reading an account from Pliny stating whereabouts in the ancient world the finest quality abrasive sands were located and that there was a market for them...like an abrasives industry  :) though this was related to polishing Roman marble. Im not sure whether  sand is 100% agreed upon as the abrasive used by the AEs for cutting and drilling, other possibilities might include emery or diamond.
The so called Rosetta stone I mentioned is claimed to originate from Abu Rawash , Djedefre 3rd king 4th dynasty c2500 bc, not  Ptolemaic. Dunn called it The Rosetta stone because I think he feels it might lead to a better understanding of ancient stone working techniques....

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Speaking of powering and mechanics Petrie makes an interesting observation regarding a diorite bowl;

"One piece found at Gizeh, No.14, shows that the method employed was true turning, and not any process of grinding, since the bowl has been knocked off of its centring, recentred imperfectly, and the old turning not quite turned out; thus there are two surfaces belonging to different centrings, and meeting in a cusp. Such an appearance could not be produced by any grinding or rubbing process which pressed on the surface."

http://www.touregypt.../petrie/c19.htm

It would be interesting to hear what stone turners would make of this. To me it seems curious that the old turning marks from the prior centering of the work remained. With a hand steadied tool and working in diorite I would have thought the judder and vibration would have removed all the old turning marks. It seems an unbelievably steady hand would be required but I might be wrong.


#635    Time Spy

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 12:55 AM

View PostOniomancer, on 16 June 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

There are several difficulties with this.

First, there's the beads Kmt mentioned. 5 millenia and these tiny little things didn't rust away to nothing. Given the same conditions, a bulkier item experiencing the same rate of corrosion should still leave some significant traces then even after another 5 millenia.

Second, there's the artifact from the shaft itself. If it does in fact date from the construction of the pyramid and if that date is as old as claimed, The fact that it exists at all would tend to argue against the complete destruction of all such artifacts from the period.

Third, there's kmt's point about traces of rust. Iron, once oxidized, cannot oxidize further, so traces of even complete disintegrated iron artifacts remain in the soil as anomalous patches of rust.  It has been possible in many archeological deigs to virtually reconstruct artifacts entirely from the shape of the rust traces left behind. If nothing else, the very presence of the rust speaks to the former presence of an iron artifact, yet we find none. One would think at the very least such a valued material would make it's way into grave goods even if scarce and certainly if not, given the other sorts of commodities which did.

Fourth, This is getting away from the apparent evidence of bronze usage in relation to stone cutting. If they were using iron or full-blown steel, why are there traces of verdigris in the various borings, etc, but not the aforementioned rust?

What are you talking about?  There are traces of iron oxide found all throughout the region.  However, anything that would be that old is undistinguishable.   The only reason the later date artifacts (which are very few, and thousands of years later) are still kept to display is because they were preserved.  Even artifacts made later than these are long gone in the ground.   PFFTT, WHOOOSH, 'we' haven't found ANY.  Maybe YOU should go look yourself.   Have you not been paying attention, here/


#636    Oniomancer

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 02:07 AM

View PostTime Spy, on 17 June 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

What are you talking about?  There are traces of iron oxide found all throughout the region.  However, anything that would be that old is undistinguishable.  

There's a bit of a difference between random iron oxide and anthropogenicaly associated deposits retaining the outline of the artifact, or lining a cut in rock not otherwise containing iron. If you have examples of same however I welcome correction.

Quote

The only reason the later date artifacts (which are very few, and thousands of years later) are still kept to display is because they were preserved.  Even artifacts made later than these are long gone in the ground.  

And yet, there they are. Again, what's another few thousand years for something that isn't even supposed to last half that long in the first place?
The question is raised as well that if they had this implied advanced level of technology, why didn't they invent stainless steel or it's equivalent?


(As an aside, I understand you're using it for emphasis instead of bolding or underlining but to reiterate, by common internet convention, using caps other than where needed has been and is interpreted as shouting by pretty much everybody going back to the old BBS days. Doesn't bother really me. Hell, I can't remember the HTML code for the other stuff myself without the buttons to help me, but you're more liable to run into trouble doing it than not.)

Edited by Oniomancer, 17 June 2012 - 02:10 AM.

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#637    Time Spy

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 04:27 AM

View PostOniomancer, on 17 June 2012 - 02:07 AM, said:

There's a bit of a difference between random iron oxide and anthropogenicaly associated deposits retaining the outline of the artifact, or lining a cut in rock not otherwise containing iron. If you have examples of same however I welcome correction.



And yet, there they are. Again, what's another few thousand years for something that isn't even supposed to last half that long in the first place?
The question is raised as well that if they had this implied advanced level of technology, why didn't they invent stainless steel or it's equivalent?


(As an aside, I understand you're using it for emphasis instead of bolding or underlining but to reiterate, by common internet convention, using caps other than where needed has been and is interpreted as shouting by pretty much everybody going back to the old BBS days. Doesn't bother really me. Hell, I can't remember the HTML code for the other stuff myself without the buttons to help me, but you're more liable to run into trouble doing it than not.)

Well you can most definitely consider me 'old school', seems quite obvious doesn't it?  I don't like to shout, I'd rather TRY to be funny (understand the emphasis, I know no other way).  You heard the teaching old dog new tricks thing, right, well no one has been tossing me any treats, no what I mean?

Ayway steel is steel, stainless would be accurate, but none the less obsolete from that time period.  That which was became weapons, you know swords???


#638    kmt_sesh

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 05:46 AM

Wow, I get a chance to exercise my English degree. The correct way to provide emphasis in a line of type is to italicize the word to be emphasized.

But look who's talking? I'm an old fart who hates how texting has butchered the English language. The kids today would call me a fossil. Well, naturally they would call me lots of other, more colorful things but the censor software would probably bleep it.

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#639    Time Spy

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 06:06 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 17 June 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

Wow, I get a chance to exercise my English degree. The correct way to provide emphasis in a line of type is to italicize the word to be emphasized.

But look who's talking? I'm an old fart who hates how texting has butchered the English language. The kids today would call me a fossil. Well, naturally they would call me lots of other, more colorful things but the censor software would probably bleep it.

The truth is I'm old school, an old fart as well, that never really got much of a grip on the English language, until his editor published his book, but anyway....   The kids today are way off on a tangent/  They don't even know what old school is, not to mention hard times.   I remember the first IBM and Commodores, tape drives and punch cards, come on I'm no baby.   Grandma lived through the great depression.  I remember the stories.  We didn't much do more than go to the woods, fish, and waste time.  Computers were a thing of the future, and a cell phone was like a tricorder.  Dad seen the first color television, that replaced the radio sitcoms.  Hell,  Grandpa was the first HAM operator in the entire region.  Yeah, maybe I've witnessed the entire information age come into being and understand, but I'm still a fossil as well.  Cheers....


#640    Oniomancer

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 06:12 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 17 June 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

Wow, I get a chance to exercise my English degree. The correct way to provide emphasis in a line of type is to italicize the word to be emphasized.

But look who's talking? I'm an old fart who hates how texting has butchered the English language. The kids today would call me a fossil. Well, naturally they would call me lots of other, more colorful things but the censor software would probably bleep it.

Only problem with that is italics doesn't stand out too well, especially in the site default font.

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#641    Time Spy

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 06:26 AM

View PostOniomancer, on 17 June 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

Only problem with that is italics doesn't stand out too well, especially in the site default font.

Good point, that's why I always capitalize.  I don't mean to scream, and I realize that most don't even listen to what I say.   Still when I try to emphasize a point, I go with all caps.  Screaming won't get me anywhere.  I just appreciate the input, and the fact that agree or disagree somewhat comes back to reply, seriously...


#642    questionmark

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 08:15 AM

View Postjules99, on 16 June 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:


"One piece found at Gizeh, No.14, shows that the method employed was true turning, and not any process of grinding, since the bowl has been knocked off of its centring, recentred imperfectly, and the old turning not quite turned out; thus there are two surfaces belonging to different centrings, and meeting in a cusp. Such an appearance could not be produced by any grinding or rubbing process which pressed on the surface."

http://www.touregypt.../petrie/c19.htm

It would be interesting to hear what stone turners would make of this. To me it seems curious that the old turning marks from the prior centering of the work remained. With a hand steadied tool and working in diorite I would have thought the judder and vibration would have removed all the old turning marks. It seems an unbelievably steady hand would be required but I might be wrong.

It does not necessarily have been turned in the sense that there was a non-abrasive method used, somewhere in this thread there is a modern abrasive method turning device. Having said that, we know at least from wood items that the 4th dynasty Egyptians had methods to turn materials, wherein we have not found any device from their time, or if we found it we did not recognize it as a lathe. Much later images of lathes start to appear, but that would be 2000 years off the pyramid time frame we always seem to get stuck on here.

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#643    Oniomancer

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 03:36 PM

View Postjules99, on 16 June 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Hi kmt_sesh

Sorry for the delay in replying

"Since no actual drilling tube has ever been discovered in Egypt, the material used for the tubes remains unknown."

http://hbar.phys.msu...nold/arnold.htm

I think its surmised from residue found that the tube drills were made from bronze or copper..

Also I remember reading an account from Pliny stating whereabouts in the ancient world the finest quality abrasive sands were located and that there was a market for them...like an abrasives industry  :) though this was related to polishing Roman marble. Im not sure whether  sand is 100% agreed upon as the abrasive used by the AEs for cutting and drilling, other possibilities might include emery or diamond.
The so called Rosetta stone I mentioned is claimed to originate from Abu Rawash , Djedefre 3rd king 4th dynasty c2500 bc, not  Ptolemaic. Dunn called it The Rosetta stone because I think he feels it might lead to a better understanding of ancient stone working techniques....

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Speaking of powering and mechanics Petrie makes an interesting observation regarding a diorite bowl;

"One piece found at Gizeh, No.14, shows that the method employed was true turning, and not any process of grinding, since the bowl has been knocked off of its centring, recentred imperfectly, and the old turning not quite turned out; thus there are two surfaces belonging to different centrings, and meeting in a cusp. Such an appearance could not be produced by any grinding or rubbing process which pressed on the surface."

http://www.touregypt.../petrie/c19.htm

It would be interesting to hear what stone turners would make of this. To me it seems curious that the old turning marks from the prior centering of the work remained. With a hand steadied tool and working in diorite I would have thought the judder and vibration would have removed all the old turning marks. It seems an unbelievably steady hand would be required but I might be wrong.
If it was entirely hand-held like in the wood turning image show previously. Most lathes however normally use a tool rest, which only requires the tool to be held against the force of rotation. This example is unusual in as much as a properly mounted workpiece on a lathe is practically self-trueing. It's hard to miss something like that being out of true unless both operators are half blind. Stone being what it is, you can't just drive a spur center into it so you'd have to either drill a pilot hole or chuck it in place, even if only with a simple jam chuck, both of which should have held the workpiece true. The only way I can personally conceive of this need to re-center happening is if they just mounted it between two points and the piece wandered under spin, which argues in favor of a more primitive set-up and against a modern-style lathe, or they hit a flaw and part of it blew up, forcing them to start over.

At any rate, presumably the piece was unfinished or the marks wouldn't have been left. The fact that the work was abandoned or considered "good enough"  is significant in this regard if one assumes they had high-speed equipment that could cut stone like butter. And this is not the only slightly lopsided Egyptian stone vessel out there. Also, while this does suggest a powered apparatus, it's still conceivable the work could've been done by hand using something similar to a cooper's croze, which follows the contour of an outside curve:

http://www.google.co...0.0.nukXJLjaHTw

It should be pointed out that Petrie was trained as a surveyor, not an engineer, and some of his statement in that area subsequently don't hold up, such as his belief that a drill would require enormous pressure to cut at a high rate of speed, when only force to maintain RPM's is needed.

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#644    pbarosso

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 01:59 AM

copper and abrasive are enough to cut anything. i used to cut telescope mirror blanks out of glass sheets for my father when he used to build reflector telescopes. we used to cut 30 inch diameter blanks 4or 5 inches thick by using copper strips bent into a perfect circle and mounted into plaster disks (to hold them in place...it was the easiest method. the copper had little cuts in it to allow water and abrasive to be carried and cut material to be extracted. we used to  have the whole deal mounted to a motor and then stand there and add "grit" as he called it. the glass would be cut in a couple hours at a very slow RPM. youd think that the copper would be worn down faster than the glass, but since the copper is soft, the grit gets embedded into it at the cutting edge by friction and scratches the glass or other harder material.

all the ancients would have needed is copper or softer metal and abrasives, hell why not gold or silver.

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#645    jules99

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:59 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 17 June 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

If it was entirely hand-held like in the wood turning image show previously. Most lathes however normally use a tool rest, which only requires the tool to be held against the force of rotation. This example is unusual in as much as a properly mounted workpiece on a lathe is practically self-trueing. It's hard to miss something like that being out of true unless both operators are half blind. Stone being what it is, you can't just drive a spur center into it so you'd have to either drill a pilot hole or chuck it in place, even if only with a simple jam chuck, both of which should have held the workpiece true. The only way I can personally conceive of this need to re-center happening is if they just mounted it between two points and the piece wandered under spin, which argues in favor of a more primitive set-up and against a modern-style lathe, or they hit a flaw and part of it blew up, forcing them to start over.

At any rate, presumably the piece was unfinished or the marks wouldn't have been left. The fact that the work was abandoned or considered "good enough"  is significant in this regard if one assumes they had high-speed equipment that could cut stone like butter. And this is not the only slightly lopsided Egyptian stone vessel out there. Also, while this does suggest a powered apparatus, it's still conceivable the work could've been done by hand using something similar to a cooper's croze, which follows the contour of an outside curve:
The ancient Egyptians might have started with a roughed out piece of rock in the basic shape of a bowl, with a ground flat base, a method still used today. One technique is to  glue a wooden board or similar to the vessels flat base and then center it on the lathe. If the glue bond gave way the work would need recentering, in the case of this vessel it was performed inaccurately..
The fact is that the device turned true to both centers so was at least accurate enough to do that.
Theres no real need to get into powered mechanisation,  possibily  a millstone that could be turned by hand would supply the weight and give enough momentum to keep the job turning and allow work to be done.
http://gb.fotolibra....-millstone.jpeg





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