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Look Mama, no diamond saw

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#76    kmt_sesh

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 04:23 AM

View PostPurifier, on 05 May 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

...

Looks like I see a stone saw tool (ropes with handles) on the far right of that picture, similar to what you mentioned earlier. Is that specifically what you were referring to Questionmark?

...

I'm not questionmark but would like to weigh in. The wooden handles with the cord could just as easily be a simple device for determining the level and smooth surface of a block of masonry. It sounds kind of odd but this is attested in inscriptional material on relief carvings or paintings on a tomb wall. The exact tomb escapes me but I believe it belonged to one of the noblemen on the west bank of Thebes and dates to Dynasty 18 or Dynasty 19. It's altogether possible more than one tomb has such a depiction.

In any case the two wooden pegs were held wide apart so that the cord was taut between them. The cord was then run down the surface of a block of masonry. Wherever the cord bulged out, the mason would set to work to smooth that spot.

As for the vampire stakes, you've correctly identified them. Vampires were a big problem back in those days, so while the guards patrolled the necropoli they carried these as part of their weaponry. You know those vampires and their love of cemeteries. :w00t:

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#77    Purifier

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:05 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 05 May 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

I'm not questionmark but would like to weigh in. The wooden handles with the cord could just as easily be a simple device for determining the level and smooth surface of a block of masonry. It sounds kind of odd but this is attested in inscriptional material on relief carvings or paintings on a tomb wall. The exact tomb escapes me but I believe it belonged to one of the noblemen on the west bank of Thebes and dates to Dynasty 18 or Dynasty 19. It's altogether possible more than one tomb has such a depiction.

In any case the two wooden pegs were held wide apart so that the cord was taut between them. The cord was then run down the surface of a block of masonry. Wherever the cord bulged out, the mason would set to work to smooth that spot.

As for the vampire stakes, you've correctly identified them. Vampires were a big problem back in those days, so while the guards patrolled the necropoli they carried these as part of their weaponry. You know those vampires and their love of cemeteries. :w00t:


No, that makes sense too, come to think of it. (Including the Vampires). Thanks for bringing that to my attention as well, Kmt_sesh. ;)


Edit: That reminds me, need to get some garlic at the store next time........

Edited by Purifier, 05 May 2012 - 06:07 AM.

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#78    Abramelin

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:13 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 04 May 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Abramelin, what if we don't have all the answers? Will that implode your world? I admitted it in an earlier post that we cannot answer everything. We have the tools which archaeologists have recovered, as well as our understanding of geology and how stones behave under certain stresses, and that is usually all we have to go by. We can only frame theories by the limits of extant evidence, so anything beyond this is mere speculation. If you're not satisfied with the extent evidence, what is your explanation for who these things were done?

Isn't that what I asked QM to admit: that he didn't know the answer?

And no, I don't have an answer either (again thinking about Puma Punku), but I am not thinking about aliens, 'Annunaki', an ancient super-civilization,  magical crystals and so on. I expect a prefectly sane and understandable solution, but it will also be an unexpected one at the same time.

The videos I have watched in this thread (yours is the first post today I'm responding to, so maybe someone did post a video - or text - explaining Puma Punku) do not explain how people cut the Puma Punku blocks with the precision they did.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 May 2012 - 08:28 AM.


#79    Abramelin

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:19 AM

View Postquestionmark, on 04 May 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

Show me where I said any of what you claim. I guess you jumped over to the fringe making it up on the go.

Again you are saying I jumped over to the fringe, amd just because I said you could not come up with any explanation of how the Puma Punka blocks were cut.

You said in the OP:

"In view of the club of the pre-historic diamond-saw coming around trying to tell us that certain things are impossible I decided to start this thread with images, instructions and videos of how things can be done by using tools and methods available since the earliest metal age."

I am not suggesting anything fringe, just saying that your videos don't show us how the PP blocks could have been cut.

Like I said: if you have such a video, I will immediately post it in my blog.

++

Wally Wallington had a theory about how to erect huge stones, and then showed everyone he could do it.

What would most people have thought if he had just said he could raise such a stone on his own? Would YOU have believed him?


.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 May 2012 - 08:38 AM.


#80    questionmark

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:45 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 May 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Again you are saying I jumped over to the fringe, amd just because I said you could not come up with any explanation of how the Puma Punka blocks were cut.

You said in the OP:

"In view of the club of the pre-historic diamond-saw coming around trying to tell us that certain things are impossible I decided to start this thread with images, instructions and videos of how things can be done by using tools and methods available since the earliest metal age."

I am not suggesting anything fringe, just saying that your videos don't show us how the PP blocks could have been cut.

Like I said: if you have such a video, I will immediately post it in my blog.

++

Wally Wallington had a theory about how to erect huge stones, and then showed everyone he could do it.

What would most people have thought if he had just said he could raise such a stone on his own? Would YOU have believed him?


.

And I said that as soon as I could lay may hands on a piece of diorite I would give it a try, not that I know how it was made. But as you evidently are not linking to any post I mad that must be what you are verbosely trying to gloss over.

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#81    questionmark

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:57 AM

View PostPurifier, on 05 May 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

Gotcha' ya, I see what your saying - that there is a possibilty that some of the saw tools we're talking about here, may have been found and might be in a vault or museum somewhere, just like some of the items in this picture, but not yet identified. Correct?

And that is interesting about the Egyptian words for drill and sand, I've been looking at that for a while now.


(Just joking around here, but if I didn't know better I'd swear to god some of those items in the pic, look like a set of wooden driver hammers with a pair of stakes for killing vampires in their sleep, while the needle like items remind me of my grandmother's crochet needles, but only just ancient Egyptian versions.)





Looks like I see a stone saw tool (ropes with handles) on the far right of that picture, similar to what you mentioned earlier. Is that specifically what you were referring to Questionmark?

(I would love to have a set of tools like that, just to have a go at it. Bet they cost a pretty penny though.)

Buy the way, I think I finally find a technical pic of the copper blade with weighted rocks saw tool, you and I were discussing about earlier.
Attachment copper_slabbing_saw_dry_sand_abrasive_experiment.jpg (Click on the pic to get a better look)
Is this what you were thinking of? For me, it's exactly the method and tool I was thinking of.


So anyway, thank you for the insight on all of this, Questionmark. I've gained a little more clarity about the possibilty of Egyptian stone cutting saws.

kmt already answered the purpose of that rope, and yes that would be more or less how it is envisioned.

Many of the techniques used by the ancient Egyptians were passed over the ages and all you really need to do is go around open eyed in Egypt to find simple explanations, let me show you some examples:

This is a simple copper age/ early bronze age stone azde:
Posted Image

The same tool (slightly better forged and probably not of copper alloy), seen here in a picture taken at the turn of the 19th century:
Posted Image

and as you can see the mason is capable of forming precise cuts with it. That same tool is still used to this day.

Even those who say that they had no time for Egypt and just went to see the pyramids should have seen a scene similar to this:

Posted Image

That guy is sand grinding a block using a more or less flat piece and lots of sand, notice how flat the surfaces are.

The explanation is there but surely does not include a super-civilization, diamond saws or Nibblers.

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#82    Abramelin

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:01 AM

View Postquestionmark, on 05 May 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

And I said that as soon as I could lay may hands on a piece of diorite I would give it a try, not that I know how it was made. But as you evidently are not linking to any post I mad that must be what you are verbosely trying to gloss over.

So you don't know yet how it was done either, despite you posting videos in reply to my posts about Puma Punku as a kind of answer that could explain it. while it's obvious that nothing in those videos comes even close.

And I am not glossing over anything; I actually reread the thread.

Anyway, you don't know, and like you said, you'll will give it a try.

I'm curious to know if you'll succeed, and I don't think I'm the only one here.

++++

EDIT:

I found a thread on another site that will give you all an idea of what this is about:

http://community.dis...50319156501/p/3

.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 May 2012 - 09:21 AM.


#83    lilthor

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 04:19 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 05 May 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

kmt already answered the purpose of that rope, and yes that would be more or less how it is envisioned.

Many of the techniques used by the ancient Egyptians were passed over the ages and all you really need to do is go around open eyed in Egypt to find simple explanations, let me show you some examples:

This is a simple copper age/ early bronze age stone azde:
Posted Image

The same tool (slightly better forged and probably not of copper alloy), seen here in a picture taken at the turn of the 19th century:
Posted Image

and as you can see the mason is capable of forming precise cuts with it. That same tool is still used to this day.

Even those who say that they had no time for Egypt and just went to see the pyramids should have seen a scene similar to this:

Posted Image

That guy is sand grinding a block using a more or less flat piece and lots of sand, notice how flat the surfaces are.

The explanation is there but surely does not include a super-civilization, diamond saws or Nibblers.

We are talking here about andesite and you show photos of limestone.  The difference between them is profound.  It is a shell game you are playing to convince others of something for which there is no proof.

If we are to be rational and clear, let's not mix media.  Shaping of andesite and other stone with similar hardness are what is on the table.  Can you show video of granite masons creating planar surfaces, inside corners, right angles, narrow grooves, and small diameter holes, using adzes, bowsaws, and block planes?  With any sort of time-effort efficiency?

No more thimblerigs, please.


#84    questionmark

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 05:19 PM

View Postlilthor, on 05 May 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

We are talking here about andesite and you show photos of limestone.  The difference between them is profound.  It is a shell game you are playing to convince others of something for which there is no proof.

If we are to be rational and clear, let's not mix media.  Shaping of andesite and other stone with similar hardness are what is on the table.  Can you show video of granite masons creating planar surfaces, inside corners, right angles, narrow grooves, and small diameter holes, using adzes, bowsaws, and block planes?  With any sort of time-effort efficiency?

No more thimblerigs, please.

I am answering a question from Purifier regarding Egypt, there can be no Andesite there as it only occurs in  America and Slovakia. Read the whole thing instead of making suppositions.

Edit: that is at a reachable level, several thousand feet down it could be everywhere

Edited by questionmark, 05 May 2012 - 05:35 PM.

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#85    Abramelin

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:20 PM

Say QM, did you start this thread as a respons to this thread, http://www.unexplain...howtopic=225431 ?

I know I was kind of enthousiastic at the start - I even warned Kmt_sesh about it - but when I found out 'where they came from' so to speak, my enthousiasm dwindled rapidly.

I remember one of these scientists (? the guy talking) saying repeatedly, "At present this could only be done with the use of a diamond cutter".

But as far as i know, he never said it was done with a diamond cutter.


#86    questionmark

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:30 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 May 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Say QM, did you start this thread as a respons to this thread, http://www.unexplain...howtopic=225431 ?

I know I was kind of enthousiastic at the start - I even warned Kmt_sesh about it - but when I found out 'where they came from' so to speak, my enthousiasm dwindled rapidly.

I remember one of these scientists (? the guy talking) saying repeatedly, "At present this could only be done with the use of a diamond cutter".

But as far as i know, he never said it was done with a diamond cutter.

No, I started it as a general swipe at the fringe, that is why we are discussing all kind of tools and methods here that do not include modern power tools.

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#87    ShadowSot

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:38 PM

I work with different types of metals a lot. Now metal is more malleable but somethings are the same. You work with a stronger material you need to spend more time shaping it. Aluminum an be cut quickly even in bar or cylinder form, and requires only a little coolant or lube to make sure  it doesn't get stuck. Steel needs much more time and usually lots of coolant, stainless even more so.

When it comes to stone, it's a similar thing. You can use the same tools to work harder stones, but the denser the material the longer it'll take. An upside of the time and labor involved with working harder material is it gives you a better finished product which is more durable and longer lasting.

When considering we are looking at cultures that work on scales of decades or longer in construction, the time and effort needed to build something and still be considered a worthwhile expenditure of time is much different than what we would consider it as today.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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#88    Abramelin

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:41 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 05 May 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

No, I started it as a general swipe at the fringe, that is why we are discussing all kind of tools and methods here that do not include modern power tools.

OK.

Personally I do not like it when people - when confronted with something they don't understand - resort to aliens and all kinds of far-out ideas. That is a sign of lack of imagination of what regular people are able of.


#89    questionmark

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:44 PM

View PostShadowSot, on 05 May 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

When considering we are looking at cultures that work on scales of decades or longer in construction, the time and effort needed to build something and still be considered a worthwhile expenditure of time is much different than what we would consider it as today.

That is the main clue to the whole speculation. Unless we are talking about tombs, that evidently had to be finished by the time the beneficiary nipped off, time was not a factor in building nor was effort invested. That changed around 300 BC when time became money by the invention of the latter.

Edit: That would be within a European/Asian context. In other places money was not a factor until much later.

Edited by questionmark, 05 May 2012 - 07:45 PM.

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#90    jules99

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:23 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 04 May 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

The question is: did the ancient Egyptians do it or was it part of a well intended but badly performed "improvement" scheme?

There are many archeological sites that have been "rebuilt" using modern tools/means, there are sites that have been vandalized with modern tools/means. If it is Egyptian it would be a combination of a rock saw and an abrasive (i.e. quartz sand)
I know Stone henge has been moved around in the past and Posnansky might have moved stones at Tiwanaku, but do you have specific examples of machined stonework that have been noted as the work of a modern day "improver" or faker?





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