567 replies to this topic

[hooko22]

Abramelin, on 11 May 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

I am fascinated by the subject, but I do not believe all the cheap bull we all have to wade through.

And there's a lot of it.

Well off course there is, comes with the turf, all we can do is just accept it and do our best to sort it out.

[docyabut2]

Since Atlas and the Titans were banish to Tartarus and the greeks in 600-500bc named the river and lands Tartesso in Iberia, is where Solon would have put the story and name of the frist king of atlantis, atlas of Tartesso(Tartarus, or Tartaros in greek form?

The Egyptian words tar ... The Towers or Houses of the Gods)

Tartarus, or Tartaros

Atlas, with his brother Menoetius, sided with the Titans in their war against the Olympians, the Titanomachy. His brothers Prometheus and Epimetheus weighed the odds and betrayed the other Titans by forming an alliance with the Olympians. When the Titans were defeated, many of them (including Menoetius) were confined to Tartarus, but Zeus condemned Atlas to stand at the western edge of Gaia, the Earth.

Tartessos

since Atlas and the Titans were banish to Tartarus and the greeks in 600-500bc named the river and lands Tartesso in Iberia, is where Solon would have put the story and name of the frist king of atlantis, atlas of Tartesso(Tartarus, or Tartaros in greek form?

The Egyptian words tar ... The Towers or Houses of the Gods)

Tartarus, or Tartaros

Atlas, with his brother Menoetius, sided with the Titans in their war against the Olympians, the Titanomachy. His brothers Prometheus and Epimetheus weighed the odds and betrayed the other Titans by forming an alliance with the Olympians. When the Titans were defeated, many of them (including Menoetius) were confined to Tartarus, but Zeus condemned Atlas to stand at the western edge of Gaia, the Earth.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus

[docyabut2]

opps double posted:)

[The Puzzler]

I'll throw in 2c.

Amenemhat's name apparently means Amun is at the Head.

I have no idea about Egytptian but it seems to me the hat/het equates to the meaning Head, which really sounds just like it - het/head

So, in Egyptian hat/het - then the sound 'at' could also mean head - which imo could really mean Father - who is the Head (of the household etc).

In Basque father is aita/Turk is atta - so the form of AT being father or head imo is all the way through, into Atlas and Atlantis, Atlantis might mean fatherland.

[Abramelin]

A bit more about this Harvey:

A retired physics and chemistry teacher, Clesson H. Harvey's education includes courses in Tibetan and ancient Egyptian religion at the University of California, Berkeley.  His hobbies are translating ancient Egyptan hieroglyphic texts and complex number and elementary particle theory development.

http://www.pyramidtexts.com/short.htm


But then this:

Paradise Rediscovered: The Roots of Civilisation, Volume 2 - Michael A. Cahill

http://books.google.... Harvey&f=false

If you click the link, you will arrive at a page where they discuss Harvey's interpretation of the Pyramid texts.

As soon as I read the word 'conpiracy' .. I started thinking I better find something else to do, lol.

[kmt_sesh]

Sorry that I've missed this discussion for so long. It's probably something I do want to join in. I've reviewed the posts so far and have seen my name dropped, so how best can I be of service? Time has been tight lately and I wasted a colossal amount of time in Creighton's latest fantasy (much to my regret), so I'm trying to depart from that one and find something more agreeable. I'm a bit confused as to the OP and what this fellow is trying to suggest about Atlantis and whatnot, so could someone provide a synopsis?

I have all of the literature at my disposal and can translate most lines of the Pyramid Texts, but translation work can take a lot of time, so a summary of what's needed will help me, if my assistance is still desired.

[kmt_sesh]

The Puzzler, on 12 May 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

I'll throw in 2c.

Amenemhat's name apparently means Amun is at the Head.

I have no idea about Egytptian but it seems to me the hat/het equates to the meaning Head, which really sounds just like it - het/head

So, in Egyptian hat/het - then the sound 'at' could also mean head - which imo could really mean Father - who is the Head (of the household etc).

In Basque father is aita/Turk is atta - so the form of AT being father or head imo is all the way through, into Atlas and Atlantis, Atlantis might mean fatherland.

Amenemhat's name can probably be translated several ways and the translation you provided is perfectly acceptable, but a more precise translation is "Amun is foremost." In this case the English rendering of "at the head" uses "head" in its alternate meaning of "front." All the name basically implies is Amun is the most important of the gods. Transliterated, HAt literally means "foremost."

Ancient Egypt was indeed a patriarchal society so the husband generally was the head of the household, but I'm not aware of instances where the word HAt was used as an analogy for "father." The character I provide as "A" is not really a vowel like the English letter "A" but a transliteration marker indicating a glottal stop. Hieroglyphs preserve no pure vowel sounds.

[Harte]

The Puzzler, on 12 May 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

I'll throw in 2c.

Amenemhat's name apparently means Amun is at the Head.

Clearly, this refers to Amun needing to relieve himself.

Harte

[kmt_sesh]

Harte, on 13 May 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

Clearly, this refers to Amun needing to relieve himself.

Harte

Your answer is a hell of a lot more fun than mine.

[kmt_sesh]

Cormac lent me a hand in trying to understand the gist of this topic, so from what can see in reviewing the OP is that this fellow, Harvey, is trying to see Atlantis in the Pyramid Texts. I frankly don't see it in reviewing some of the utterances Abramelin listed, and in comparing my copies of Faulkner's and Allan's translations to the actual hieroglyphs. Am I mistaken, or is Clesson Harvey trying to see Atlantis in the Egyptian place name Nedit?

Let's look at just one of the selected utterances. Here we have Harvey's rendition of 442:819a:

...kher fallen er ef as to himself, ti verily ur pu is such a gray mahatma her in charge of ges ef his half nedi and overthrown er ef as to himself imi is he who was in Nedit Atlantis,

LOL Frankly I have no idea where Harvey's come up with this. The relevant line in Faulkner's translation reads:

This Great One has fallen on his side, he who is in the Nedit is felled.

In Allen's translation we have (Pepi 38):

Recitation: So, has the great one fallen on his side and he in Nedit been thrown down?

Allen's version is a bit fancier but they both come out essentially the same. Harvey's, on the other hand, seems to be coming from outer space. In any case, here are the actual hieroglyphs for this passage:



My transliteration and translation for the purple portion is as follows:

Dd xrr.f ti-wr pA Hr gs.f

Recitation: he's fallen this great one upon his side.

The polished version: "Recitation: This Great One has fallen upon his side."

For the red and green portion I have (the green portion is set apart for emphasis because it's the place name Nedit):

ndir.f imy ndit

He's thrown down within Nedit.

The polished version: "He who is within Nedit is thrown down."

It's really quite straight forward. Not all passages from the Pyramid Texts are this simple. I'm not really sure where this Harvey fellow is coming from or why he thinks Nedit is Atlantis. In Egyptian mythology Nedit is a site near the ancient cemetery of Abydos where Osiris was slain by his jealous brother Set. As Allen points out in his glossary (2005: 437) the ancient Egyptian ndi means "to throw down," so the place name Nedit is kind of a play on words.

I perused some of the links Abramelin kindly provided in his OP and there are some things for which I would stress caution. In numerous instances Havrey is one of those who claims to see something that Egyptologists have always missed, but that only he truly understands. This in spite of the concerted efforts of brilliant, expert Egyptological linguists like Faulkner and especially Allen. I have no reason to doubt that Harvey has studied Egyptian hieroglyphs, at least to an extent: I do not see where he's provided transliterations for other people to check the veracity of his translations, which is not a proper approach. I also have no doubt that someone like James Allen has forgotten more about Egyptian hieroglyphs in the last week than Harvey will learn in a lifetime. The same can be said of me. I do not claim to be an expert, but I do not see how we ought to take Harvey seriously. His attitude about self-proclaimed knowledge reminds me an awful lot of cladking, and that's just damn scary.

Please let me know if this has been helpful or is only making things more confusing. And please don't hesitate to ask if there's more I can do. If I have the time, I will help.

[The Puzzler]

kmt_sesh, on 13 May 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

Amenemhat's name can probably be translated several ways and the translation you provided is perfectly acceptable, but a more precise translation is "Amun is foremost." In this case the English rendering of "at the head" uses "head" in its alternate meaning of "front." All the name basically implies is Amun is the most important of the gods. Transliterated, HAt literally means "foremost."

Ancient Egypt was indeed a patriarchal society so the husband generally was the head of the household, but I'm not aware of instances where the word HAt was used as an analogy for "father." The character I provide as "A" is not really a vowel like the English letter "A" but a transliteration marker indicating a glottal stop. Hieroglyphs preserve no pure vowel sounds.

Goodo kmt.

ht or hat/het is relative to head/foremost and this will imo also go through to the original meaning for father, in an early language, maybe not Egyptian but Basque or Altaic language, where at/atta/aita is father and his position at the head or being foremost, is why he was called father and variations of it - he is the hat, het - head but also ht or at, silent h to no h, it will all connect imo - point being, both Atlas name and Atlantis imo, even in Egyptian will mean father (as the head/foremost) of the family.

Atlantis might be found in Egyptian by looking for some word that starts with ht...

Edited by The Puzzler, 13 May 2012 - 04:42 AM.

[questionmark]

kmt_sesh, on 13 May 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

Please let me know if this has been helpful or is only making things more confusing. And please don't hesitate to ask if there's more I can do.

Quite so, even though I can't quite understand why some people cannot just go to vetted translations that are available online.

[Abramelin]

questionmark, on 13 May 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

Quite so, even though I can't quite understand why some people cannot just go to vetted translations that are available online.

All we can do is look for those online translations, and still not know why this Harvey came up with his "Altantis".

So I asked someone who could know because he actually studied hieroglyphs, and maybe even knows this Harvey.

I already didn't trust it much, but I didn't study Egyptian hieroglyphs so my opinion isn't worth much either.

[Abramelin]

kmt_sesh, on 13 May 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

Cormac lent me a hand in trying to understand the gist of this topic, so from what can see in reviewing the OP is that this fellow, Harvey, is trying to see Atlantis in the Pyramid Texts. I frankly don't see it in reviewing some of the utterances Abramelin listed, and in comparing my copies of Faulkner's and Allan's translations to the actual hieroglyphs. Am I mistaken, or is Clesson Harvey trying to see Atlantis in the Egyptian place name Nedit?

Let's look at just one of the selected utterances. Here we have Harvey's rendition of 442:819a:

...kher fallen er ef as to himself, ti verily ur pu is such a gray mahatma her in charge of ges ef his half nedi and overthrown er ef as to himself imi is he who was in Nedit Atlantis,

LOL Frankly I have no idea where Harvey's come up with this. The relevant line in Faulkner's translation reads:

This Great One has fallen on his side, he who is in the Nedit is felled.

In Allen's translation we have (Pepi 38):

Recitation: So, has the great one fallen on his side and he in Nedit been thrown down?

Allen's version is a bit fancier but they both come out essentially the same. Harvey's, on the other hand, seems to be coming from outer space. In any case, here are the actual hieroglyphs for this passage:



My transliteration and translation for the purple portion is as follows:

Dd xrr.f ti-wr pA Hr gs.f

Recitation: he's fallen this great one upon his side.

The polished version: "Recitation: This Great One has fallen upon his side."

For the red and green portion I have (the green portion is set apart for emphasis because it's the place name Nedit):

ndir.f imy ndit

He's thrown down within Nedit.

The polished version: "He who is within Nedit is thrown down."

It's really quite straight forward. Not all passages from the Pyramid Texts are this simple. I'm not really sure where this Harvey fellow is coming from or why he thinks Nedit is Atlantis. In Egyptian mythology Nedit is a site near the ancient cemetery of Abydos where Osiris was slain by his jealous brother Set. As Allen points out in his glossary (2005: 437) the ancient Egyptian ndi means "to throw down," so the place name Nedit is kind of a play on words.

I perused some of the links Abramelin kindly provided in his OP and there are some things for which I would stress caution. In numerous instances Havrey is one of those who claims to see something that Egyptologists have always missed, but that only he truly understands. This in spite of the concerted efforts of brilliant, expert Egyptological linguists like Faulkner and especially Allen. I have no reason to doubt that Harvey has studied Egyptian hieroglyphs, at least to an extent: I do not see where he's provided transliterations for other people to check the veracity of his translations, which is not a proper approach. I also have no doubt that someone like James Allen has forgotten more about Egyptian hieroglyphs in the last week than Harvey will learn in a lifetime. The same can be said of me. I do not claim to be an expert, but I do not see how we ought to take Harvey seriously. His attitude about self-proclaimed knowledge reminds me an awful lot of cladking, and that's just damn scary.

Please let me know if this has been helpful or is only making things more confusing. And please don't hesitate to ask if there's more I can do. If I have the time, I will help.

Thanks for participating, Kmt.

But from some of Harvey's translations is get that "Nedit Atlantis" is an expression, not that Nedit = Atlantis.

And yeah, as you can read in one of my latter posts, it is said that Harvey thinks it is all a 'conspiracy' of Egyptologists.

When I read that I regretted having started this thread, lol.

[blackdogsun]

hi abramelin
just to add some info and hope this doesn't divert from your original posting but i have read on occasion that Kepchu (Kftjw) has also been posited as the Ancient Egyptian name suposedly given to Solon for Atlantis (in this case though i think it refers to Crete or Thera)
i read this some time ago so don't recall the source
however
there is a discussion at wiki regarding information edited from its 'Location Hypothesis' page on Atlantis that mentions the term and that it was removed though not clearly explaining why it was removed
http://en.wikipedia....ses_of_Atlantis
(if you scroll down to the Akrotiri fresco picture and go to point 6 above it and then to point 5. after the fresco)

Edited by blackdogsun, 13 May 2012 - 10:26 AM.