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Is California going the Way of Greece?

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#1    and then

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:25 AM

http://www.reuters.c...E84C00D20120513

I wonder if Cali can come back from this without defaulting.  And if they were to default how it would affect the rest of the US economy.  Remember, this isn't the State's debt.  Only how much it's overdrawn this year..... unimaginable.....

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#2    acidhead

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 04:21 AM

Greece has the ECB and Cali has the FED..  it doesn't matter what the market says.. No Nation or State is Too-Big to Fail in our Keynes 21st Century.

On a personal note I'm quite confused on the OWS crowd... what's been going on is the result of what you have been demanding.

Edited by acidhead, 13 May 2012 - 04:31 AM.

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#3    and then

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:41 AM

View Postacidhead, on 13 May 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

Greece has the ECB and Cali has the FED..  it doesn't matter what the market says.. No Nation or State is Too-Big to Fail in our Keynes 21st Century.

On a personal note I'm quite confused on the OWS crowd... what's been going on is the result of what you have been demanding.
I don't understand..I've been demanding that States spend more than they can afford for welfare programs?  My problem with OWS has always been that they allowed some of the worst and most chaotic elements to represent them.  The hippie style communal living in public, the open sex, rapes, etc.  Yeah...I know it was a very small number and they did not represent all but they were not removed by the movement.  They were allowed to stay and the focus BECAME those bent on the chaos.  The same entities that partially sponsored OWS could have helped set up leaders, basic rules and had the group self monitor to give NO ONE the ability to just cast aside their message because of misbehavior of a few, yet they seemed to embrace the misbehavior.  It just seemed childish.  As the economic situation worsens (and it surely will) the next incarnation of these protests might accomplish something good if it were organized correctly.  But if the goal is anarchy in it's purest sense then all that will be accomplished is violence.

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#4    Socio

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:04 PM

California is home to the largest population of illegal immigrants in the US, this is what happens when you become a sanctuary state, over crowd your public education system, welfare system, medical system and criminal justice system with millions of people here illegally that contribute little and take a lot on top of millions of American citizens doing the same.

Austerity might be the best thing that could happen to California.


#5    Bella-Angelique

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:21 PM

I remember reading on when basic prison guards in Californina were granted $100,000 a year income and it was also agreed they would keep getting the same amount a year in retirement.
There is more than being a sanctuary state that is wrong in Californina.

As for will they come back from it? Probably not in the next fifty years if ever compared to what it once was.

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#6    ninjadude

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:45 PM

View PostSocio, on 13 May 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

California is home to the largest population of illegal immigrants in the US,

Since there is no way to determine this number, your statement is pure speculation.

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#7    Mike D boy

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:59 PM

California has been in some sort of financial trouble for over 2 decades since the end of the Cold war caused the mass closure of the state's mega-sized military and aerospace industries, then came the aftermath of the 1990s recession and the 2003 financial crisis predicted the 2008 great recession and depletion of the state treasury was historic. I'm wondering how much NAFTA seem to screwed the state's once large industrial and agricultural economies suffering from factory closures and environmental regulations impacted the state's fish and game, lumber and farming industries. The state of California is dependent on economies of both Mexico/Latin America and the Asian pacific rim (i.e. Japan and China) built on free trade practices, outsourcing of every known job/career/occupation possible out of state and country, and mass immigration from the mentioned countries replaced the 10 million departed former long-time residents and native-born Californians fled to neighboring western states in the last 20 years.

Today, California expects to be another East Germany and Yugoslavia, once these two nations in the top 10 economies of the world as of the late 1980s before their very demise and they were the harbinger of the fall of the USSR or Soviet Bloc in the early 90s. The problem is something is wrong with the golden state's tarnished reptuation of being a well run strong huge economy of its own surpassing most of the USA's 50 states, as well Greece is the most affected victim of the Euro-zone's economic disease so far. The symbols of western civilization and the 20th century's successful experiments of (social) democracy and capitalism, as well fiscal conservatism (or the "free market")  and liberal orientation, are examples of how systems rise, peak and fall in world history, because no state or national government is immortal...and systems can still be saved or remodeled to survive or return back to its former position or status previously held: The age of progress and prosperity is over, now we have downsizing and austerity.

Edited by Mike the Autist-ic, 13 May 2012 - 10:02 PM.

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#8    and then

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:14 AM

I suspect that severe austerity is in Cali's future (as well as the rest of the US) but other than possibly reducing the number of illegals I'm not sure what good austerity will accomplish.  I also wonder if OWS might morph into a true state of violent, chaotic protest that creates more problems than it solves.

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#9    Mike D boy

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:48 AM

View Postand then, on 14 May 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

I suspect that severe austerity is in Cali's future (as well as the rest of the US) but other than possibly reducing the number of illegals I'm not sure what good austerity will accomplish.  I also wonder if OWS might morph into a true state of violent, chaotic protest that creates more problems than it solves.

Cal. grew too much, planned little to expand public social services anyway. I put the blame square at the state's Republican party of the 1980s and 90s, then you have the Governator claimed to be a fiscal conservative continued to pander for social Liberal causes.  Reagan as well the Brown family and Grey Davis did little to reverse the trend of self-destruction the state treasury was headed to...and we fell for it: The "Surplus state" 30 or 40 years ago to the "state of emergency" but whatever happens in California doesn't stay where it belongs.

I don't blame immigrants whether legal or not, minorities, low-income people or anyone on state or county public social services (like myself and much of my family per se), but we have a generally high level of fraud, abuse and corruption within the doles of the state public social service system to not only get underfunded, it's overused for the wrong reasons. And the state needs to attract and bring back big businesses as much as we can or whatever it takes to keep California in the "6th-10th" largest economies of the world, or have more jobs and people flee to nearby states and even other countries (recently, shocking news reports on Mexican nationals returning home to Mexico after a few years in the US due to lowering employment opportunities).

Edited by Mike the Autist-ic, 14 May 2012 - 08:51 AM.

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#10    Socio

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:30 PM

View Postninjadude, on 13 May 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

Since there is no way to determine this number, your statement is pure speculation.

http://ivn.us/2011/0...hough-national/

Quote

The latest estimates from the Pew Hispanic Center found that much of the country’s 2010 unauthorized immigrant population remained virtually unchanged from 2009. California, however, remained at the top of the pack, being home to the nation’s highest population of illegal immigrant residents and laborers.



#11    Varelse

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 09:55 PM

16 BILLION??? That's all? Chump change in Cali. They just need to make hollywood pay it's fair share. Plenty of rich and wealthy and unproductive movie stars all asking to have their taxes raised. There you go. Problem solved.

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#12    DieChecker

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:18 PM

View PostMike the Autist-ic, on 14 May 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

Cal. grew too much, planned little to expand public social services anyway. I put the blame square at the state's Republican party of the 1980s and 90s, then you have the Governator claimed to be a fiscal conservative continued to pander for social Liberal causes.  Reagan as well the Brown family and Grey Davis did little to reverse the trend of self-destruction the state treasury was headed to...and we fell for it: The "Surplus state" 30 or 40 years ago to the "state of emergency" but whatever happens in California doesn't stay where it belongs.

I don't blame immigrants whether legal or not, minorities, low-income people or anyone on state or county public social services (like myself and much of my family per se), but we have a generally high level of fraud, abuse and corruption within the doles of the state public social service system to not only get underfunded, it's overused for the wrong reasons. And the state needs to attract and bring back big businesses as much as we can or whatever it takes to keep California in the "6th-10th" largest economies of the world, or have more jobs and people flee to nearby states and even other countries (recently, shocking news reports on Mexican nationals returning home to Mexico after a few years in the US due to lowering employment opportunities).
I have to agree with the part about Fraud. I've read that 1/5th to 1/3rd of all government "entitlement" spending goes to fraudulent recipients. Government fraud is big buisiness. Probably as big as Big Oil and/or the Automobile Industry.

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#13    DieChecker

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:19 PM

View PostFramling, on 14 May 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

16 BILLION??? That's all? Chump change in Cali. They just need to make hollywood pay it's fair share. Plenty of rich and wealthy and unproductive movie stars all asking to have their taxes raised. There you go. Problem solved.
How about they figure out the 160 most rich celebritys in California and get 100 million from each? Call it a one time "redistribution" tax.

Edited by DieChecker, 14 May 2012 - 10:19 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#14    and then

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:25 PM

View PostMike the Autist-ic, on 14 May 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

Cal. grew too much, planned little to expand public social services anyway. I put the blame square at the state's Republican party of the 1980s and 90s, then you have the Governator claimed to be a fiscal conservative continued to pander for social Liberal causes.  Reagan as well the Brown family and Grey Davis did little to reverse the trend of self-destruction the state treasury was headed to...and we fell for it: The "Surplus state" 30 or 40 years ago to the "state of emergency" but whatever happens in California doesn't stay where it belongs.

I don't blame immigrants whether legal or not, minorities, low-income people or anyone on state or county public social services (like myself and much of my family per se), but we have a generally high level of fraud, abuse and corruption within the doles of the state public social service system to not only get underfunded, it's overused for the wrong reasons. And the state needs to attract and bring back big businesses as much as we can or whatever it takes to keep California in the "6th-10th" largest economies of the world, or have more jobs and people flee to nearby states and even other countries (recently, shocking news reports on Mexican nationals returning home to Mexico after a few years in the US due to lowering employment opportunities).

They leave because of the taxes and other costs of doing business.  You can't blame a business for trying to make money.  If they don't come up with a more sound and equitable system then the State becomes a bailout for the Federal government.  If THAT happens then I'd expect some serious austerity a la Greece's situation.  You can imagine how that will go down.  I think the protests would quickly skip "angry" and rocket into chaos.  Those kinds of deficits are driven by entitlements.  Healthcare and pensions probably topping the list.  It's a common story all over the nation but seems to be especially problematic in States where there are no "right to work" laws.  Public Unions are so out of control that even FDR was against the idea.

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#15    Ashotep

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:54 AM

How are unions out of control?  I don't get it when people want to blame Unions for everything.  Plenty of people in unions have taken concessions to help out the company they work for when quite often the CEO doesn't forgo his multi million bonus.  I don't blame a company for wanting to make money, that's what they are there for but the employee needs to earn a living wage and work in safe conditions.  It doesn't hurt to have enough job security  they won't just fire you because they don't like the way you look or are getting older.

Sorry about my rant but unions are the least of California's problems.  I think you can place some of their problem on their illegal immigrant population which entails the expense of health care, other social services, jail, etc.  Then like one poster said the fraud in the system.  That could take so many avenues, from people drawing welfare that don't need it to a higher up employees of the state having work done on their personal property and letting tax payers pay for it.

If things in California does get as bad as Greece you could very well see rioting in the streets.  Take away someone's way of life and its scary.  Desperate people do desperate things.

I just hope the whole country or anyones else's either, doesn't end up like Greece. I hope things gets better for Greece.






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