4032 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Thread continued from: Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood (Original)

About the Baltic being a 'bad/angry sea'...

I think that is crap etymology.

The North Sea is much more dangerous than the Baltic ever was. In thousands of years many millions have drowned because the North Sea was 'angry'.

One of it's oldest (Frisian?) names was ""Hell". Many placenames in the Netherlands still have the word 'Hel' in them.

Even the OLB mentions floods that must have occurred in the North Sea area.

Btw, does the OLB ever give a name for the North Sea?

Not really, unless it is "Wralda's Sea", like I suggested a long time ago.

,

[Abramelin]

I think this is an interesting post too:

Saru, on 16 May 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

See my note about this from earlier, we're in the process of archiving topics that are too large as it looks like these are the main cause of the server load issues responsible for the delays you are describing.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 16 May 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

I think the closest Dutch word to BISÁWD is 'bezwijken' or 'to succumb'.
... you'll notice - and I think even understandable for those who can't read Dutch - that all forms in Old nordic languages have a -K- at the end, not a -D- or a -T- .

No, (be-) zwijken is a totally different word.
It appears in OLB too.

THA MODELÁSA SKILUN ÀMMAR SWIKA VNDER HJAR ÀJN LÉD.

The D at the end of BISAWD is because it is past tense.

Edited by Otharus, 16 May 2012 - 07:00 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 16 May 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Oh boy, we have discussed about Delahaye alright!

But you should not forget that this Lumka-makia is supposed to be located in East Flyland.

And if "Albis" is the original or older name of the French river Aa, then I think we can forget about it.

I know Otharus has Joël Vandemaele's book about the OLB, and Vandemaele based his interpretation of the OLB on Delahaye's theories.

Do you have this book, Van Gorp, and does he say where East Flyland is located? Or Lumka-makia?

.

No, I don't have that book of Vandemaele.  I don't know what is written there.
But I just wanted to mention that the etymology of the word 'Flanders' is coming from Flie-landern, and we also have West and East Flie-landers.
Vleteren the same, and in the middle you have Linde and above Oeren.  So for me it isn't that strange to mention.

Off course not having said that those terms are equal to the West- and East Flylands of OLB, but same terminology is being used.
I feel I don't have to mention Delahaye to much, so I won't.  What I just described is not related to him.

But what strikes me is that I haven't read about the second part of the assumed place name 'makia'.  In OLB it is used often to describe to verb 'to make'/become.
Don't you think it has also a meaning in Lumka-makia?

Lumka makes me think of Loo-meke, small Loo.  So Lumka-makia -> place of a small forest on an emerged sand-hill.
To stay in the area -> Looberghe could be a candidate :-) We can be inventive to amuse ourselves no?

Cheers.

Edited by Van Gorp, 16 May 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 16 May 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

I think this is an interesting post too:

In your post #11638 you quoted much more than needed.
You could save server space and scrolling time by cutting those quotes.

Edited by Otharus, 16 May 2012 - 06:59 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 16 May 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

In your post #11638 you quoted much more than needed.
You could save server space and scrolling time by cutting those quotes.

You are right, but it was a 'hit and run' post (like many of mine).

Someone banged at my door, and so I posted without editing out the unnecessary stuff.

Be glad you now live in that tiny village in Friesland.

Man, I wish I was back in the Peruvian jungle.

You hunt for food, and that is your main concern.

For the rest, it was talking at campfires, listening to the most weird stories I ever heard, eying up the women loving your 'blue eyes',  smoking scheise that made your brains melt, laughing at jokes or crazy stories, and so on.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 May 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Van Gorp, on 16 May 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

But what strikes me is that I haven't read about the second part of the assumed place name 'makia'.  In OLB it is used often to describe to verb 'to make'/become.
Don't you think it has also a meaning in Lumka-makia?


Cheers.

Yes, good point Van Gorp - I have admitted defeat of an etymology I thought was better, based on the use of the word throughout the OLB in another etymology. It won't be both.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 16 May 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

About the Baltic being a 'bad/angry sea'...

I think that is crap etymology.

The North Sea is much more dangerous than the Baltic ever was. In thousands of years many millions have drowned because the North Sea was 'angry'.

One of it's oldest (Frisian?) names was ""Hell". Many placenames in the Netherlands still have the word 'Hel' in them.

Even the OLB mentions floods that must have occurred in the North Sea area.

Btw, does the OLB ever give a name for the North Sea?

Not really, unless it is "Wralda's Sea", like I suggested a long time ago.

,

After the great flood of which my father wrote an account, there came many Jutlanders and Letlanders out of the Baltic, or bad sea.

Aftre grâte flod hwêr vr min tât skrêven heth, wêron fêlo Juttar a^end Lêtne mith ebbe uta Balda jefta kvade sê fored

I imagine the Baltic was seen as horrendous after this massive flooding incident and may have been named the Balda Sea at that point if Otharus is right in connecting the words.

[The Puzzler]

I might have missed this previously but I only just realised that Leeuwarden was established and named c. 825.

I think this is where it's mentioned in the OLB: as Lindwerd.

My father has written how the Lindaoorden and Liudgaarden were destroyed. Lindahem is still lost, the Lindaoorden partially, and the north Lindgaarden are still concealed by the salt sea. The foaming sea washes the ramparts of the castle. As my father has mentioned, the people, being deprived of their harbour, went away and built houses inside the ramparts of the citadel; therefore that bastion is called Lindwerd. The sea-people say Linwerd, but that is nonsense.

The name "Leeuwarden" (or old spelling variants) first came into use for Nijehove, the most important one of the three villages that later merged into one, in the early 9th century (Villa Lintarwrde' c. 825)
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Leeuwarden

Original name was Nijehove - Nije is possible new and hove - maybe like lodge/place - haven

Old Frisian hovia=lodge


So, Lindwerd as Nijehove was really new lodgings - which actually fits the description given in the OLB very well, perfect actually - it was new lodge/home/haven after the flooding.

Leeuwarden's name therefore does not seem to have been Lindwerd or Lintarwrde until as said 825 although the name for it (Nijehove) does represent the description given in the OLB.

My feeling is constantly this:

The OLB is recently written, but compiled of information that is true but not original, so written in a form of later times.

Nothing says that they didn't move into Nijehove after the terrible flood in Frisia - the name though, would not have been Lindwerd until later, even though the information given by Konered is possibly correct. It's certainly an intriging puzzle.

Edited by The Puzzler, 17 May 2012 - 03:11 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, this one's for you...

The Hebrew etymology of balderdash is, of course, a bad joke, but it brings out the fact that in several languages words designating various undignified concepts begin with bal(d)-. In Dutch we see baldadig “wanton” (an adjective formed from the noun meaning “evil, baleful deed”). Slavic has a long list of such words, the most interesting of which is Russian balda “fool” (stress on the second syllable), because Pushkin wrote The Tale of the Priest and His Workman Balda (he wrote it in exile, in a place called Boldino — stress on the first syllable; music lovers may have heard Shostakovich’s early suite on this tale, an analog of Richard Strauss’s Till Eulenspiegel’s Merry Pranks). A folklore character called a fool always turns out to be exceptionally smart. In Pushkin’s tale, Balda (which is used as the workman’s proper name) outwits his greedy employer (the priest) and a whole family of devils. One gets the impression that the syllable bald serves more or less the same purpose all over the map. Many such words, including Balda, pose problems and have been with some hesitation referred to Turkic, but at least some of them may be native.

~~~

How can balderdash become a word of a “known” origin? This will happen if a document turns up in which a certain bartender tells a story about how he coined the name for the swill he served to his guests. Ideally the bartender’s own name should also be Balderdash. A story recounting the birth of Kladderdatsch exists, but a book titled The Balding Bartender’s Memoirs with the information we need has not been found. Another good thing would be to discover a local English verb balder.
http://blog.oup.com/...igin-etymology/

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 16 May 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

No, I don't have that book of Vandemaele.  I don't know what is written there.
But I just wanted to mention that the etymology of the word 'Flanders' is coming from Flie-landern, and we also have West and East Flie-landers.
Vleteren the same, and in the middle you have Linde and above Oeren.  So for me it isn't that strange to mention.

Off course not having said that those terms are equal to the West- and East Flylands of OLB, but same terminology is being used.
I feel I don't have to mention Delahaye to much, so I won't.  What I just described is not related to him.

But what strikes me is that I haven't read about the second part of the assumed place name 'makia'.  In OLB it is used often to describe to verb 'to make'/become.
Don't you think it has also a meaning in Lumka-makia?

Lumka makes me think of Loo-meke, small Loo.  So Lumka-makia -> place of a small forest on an emerged sand-hill.
To stay in the area -> Looberghe could be a candidate :-) We can be inventive to amuse ourselves no?

Cheers.

From what I read "Vlaanderen" has a totally different etymology (see Wiki), and nothing like "Flielanden". I found "Flielanden" on exactly one site which has some other weird theories too.

And it strikes you you didn't read  about "makia"??

Well, then you read too fast lol. It's either the Frisian "makia" meaning "to make" or it means "sword" (see Vimose, Fyn island, Denmark, close to Odense, the traditional birthplace of Odin/Wodan).

And Lemmer, which I think is Lumka-makia, means 'worker who helps with the slaughter of whales" / "part of a knife"/  "part of a sword" / "bare blade" / "wick of a lamp or candle".

I also posted about both a Danish and Frisian word "Lumsk" which means sly, cunning, treacherous.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2012 - 07:00 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 17 May 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

After the great flood of which my father wrote an account, there came many Jutlanders and Letlanders out of the Baltic, or bad sea.

Aftre grâte flod hwêr vr min tât skrêven heth, wêron fêlo Juttar a^end Lêtne mith ebbe uta Balda jefta kvade sê fored

I imagine the Baltic was seen as horrendous after this massive flooding incident and may have been named the Balda Sea at that point if Otharus is right in connecting the words.

But that flood Konered talks about happened (also) in the North Sea:

THE WRITINGS OF FRÊTHORIK AND WILJOW
(,,,)
This happened 1888 years after the submersion of Atland (= 306 BC)

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bo

Or should all these placenames be located at the coast of the Baltic?

=

It's the Cimbrian flood and it drove the inhabitants of Denmark to the south, and brought them in contact with the Romans.

Personally I think it happened in the North Sea, not the Baltic, and I know we have talked about this long a go.

++++

EDIT:


De zeventiende eeuwse Friese geschiedschrijver Chr. Schotanus schreef over de Kimbrische vloed;
“Omtrend den jare nae de scheppinghe der werelt 360 ofte 350 voor de geboorte Jesu Christi is door stormen en tempgeesten een schricklijke watervloed over alle zee-custen van Duytsland gelopen, die veel vee ende mensen heeft vernielt.Dit eerste en oudste vloet, daer men gedachtenis af kan hebben, die oock so men meent, alle eylanden, aan de Friessche custen , van’t vaste land afgescheurt en vele binnenwateren ende meeren gemaekt heeft, daer de monden van de rivieren, voorhenen, met enghe gaten in ze uitliepen.

The 17th century Frisian historian Chr. Schotanus wrote this about the Cymbrian Flood:
About the year 360 or 350 before the birth of Jesus Christ a terrible flood, caused by violent storms, hit all the sea coasts of Germany, a flood that destroyed many cattle and people. This first and oldest flood which can be remembered, could also have ripped all the islands on the Frisian coast from the mainland, and have created many inlets and lakes because formerly the mouths of the rivers ended up in them through narrow entrances.

http://www.lutebouwe...tormvloeden.htm

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2012 - 06:26 AM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 16 May 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Be glad you now live in that tiny village in Friesland.

It was the best move I ever made.

You helped me make that decision end of december, remember?
If you want to escape the big city for a few days, you are welcome.
I have a guest-room.

[Otharus]

The Puzzler, on 17 May 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

The name "Leeuwarden" (or old spelling variants) first came into use for Nijehove...

The problem with statements like this, is that they are actually talking about the oldest known written record.
The name can be much older than that.

Imagine that in an area where many aboriginals live, they now decide to name a park or lake after an ancient story that was thus far only transmitted orally, generation to generation, and was never before written down. Suddenly the name appears on maps and on the internet. Did that name first came into use only now? No, we just don't know.

[Otharus]

The Puzzler, on 17 May 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:

Otharus, this one's for you...
... it brings out the fact that in several languages words designating various undignified concepts begin with bal(d)-.
... Slavic has a long list of such words, the most interesting of which is Russian balda “fool”

First thought I had when I read your post was

"Aha! That's why Brett Easton Ellis named the character of his American Psycho Christian Bale!"

But no, that's the name of the actor who played him (brilliantly).
The character's name was Patrick Bateman.

Quote

A folklore character called a fool always turns out to be exceptionally smart.

LOL that made my day.
Thanks!