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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#1201    Otharus

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:00 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 03 October 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

If you have time, I'd like to see what you copied, and post the copies on my OLB blog.

I only have a hard copy.

If vdB has reasons to be proud of the work he did (it was much),
he should make it available both at Tresoar and on the web.

View PostAbramelin, on 03 October 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

I hope studying at Leuven University will take some off that arrogance of yours away. But I fear it will only make it worse...

A final reply
addressed to anyone who feels addressed
(that may include myself)

I understand why you don't like it
when people prove to have more knowledge or wisdom than you

It makes you feel inferior

You hide in a cave
where you can project only those shadows of yourself
that you want to see

If you would step out of it
sunlight would blind you
stars would overwhelm you

And you would see that indeed
some others are superior
in some ways

But that does not have to be something to feel bad about

They may not judge you the way you judge yourself

Quote

Good luck with your study.

Thanks


#1202    Abramelin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:38 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 04 October 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

Wouldn't Menapii be a Roman word/name?
Maybe the Fryans are not calling them that...

Not sure now...

It is commonly suggested that the Menapii share the same name as (and may indeed be related to) the ancient Irish tribe Manapi (for whom County Fermanagh is named), first mentioned by Ptolemy.[16][17] Both names are considered P-Celtic and may be derived from a Proto-Celtic root *mano- (alternately *meno- or *mono-) meaning either "thought" or "treading" (another possibility being a derivative of another root *mono-, from Proto-Indo-European *men- meaning "to tower", which gives us the Brythonic words for "mountain")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menapii

That etymology is based on the idea that the Irish Menapii were an Irish tribe. If what others think is true, then they came from where Caesar located them (roughly in and around the present Dutch province of Zeeland), and they could be a Germanic tribe.

The PIE etymology ("to tower") you ended your quote with could hint at these Menapians being tall people.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 October 2012 - 06:54 AM.


#1203    Abramelin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:40 AM

View PostOtharus, on 04 October 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:


I only have a hard copy.

If vdB has reasons to be proud of the work he did (it was much),
he should make it available both at Tresoar and on the web.



A final reply
addressed to anyone who feels addressed
(that may include myself)

I understand why you don't like it
when people prove to have more knowledge or wisdom than you

It makes you feel inferior

You hide in a cave
where you can project only those shadows of yourself
that you want to see

If you would step out of it
sunlight would blind you
stars would overwhelm you

And you would see that indeed
some others are superior
in some ways

But that does not have to be something to feel bad about

They may not judge you the way you judge yourself



Thanks

Go study and feel superior. I now understand why the OLB appeals to you that much.


#1204    Otharus

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:14 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 October 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

Go study and feel superior.

Thanks again.

Quote

I now understand why the OLB appeals to you that much.

Finally!


#1205    Abramelin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:17 AM

I found some new info on the Menapians and what their name might mean, or what it is equivalent with. But several texts are in Dutch, and even something in French (sigh), so I will post piece by piece.

For starters something in English (how lucky I am):


The Menapii occupied a large territory stretching along the coast from the Aa to the mouth of the Maas. It seems to have been thinly populated and Caesar tells us that in the first century B.C.E. it was full of marshes and forests. Inland their frontier lay on the upper Lys, the Deule and the Schelde. By the first century C.E., their principle city under Roman administration was Castellum Menapiorum (Cassel). Their territory seems to have been reduced and centred further south than Caesar reported. Land seems to have been taken from the Morini east of the Aa. This may have been linked to the disturbances on the lower Rhine caused by the Suebi in 30-29 B.C.E. and used by the Morini as an occaision for revolt.

A branch of the Menapii is recorded by Ptolemy as a tribal name "Manapioi" in Ireland. The form of this name recorded by Ptolemy in the second century C.E., with the first "e" pronounced "a" in sympathy with the second vowel is evidence that they are more recent than the continental Menapii
.

The etymology of their name is obscure. Some linguists propose a non-Celtic word, later Celticized, as the origin.

http://bwalker.free....las/menapii.htm


#1206    Abramelin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:20 AM

Here it is again suggested that the Menapii spoke a Celtic language:

The Sicambri appear in history around 55 BC, during the time of conquests of Gaul by Julius Caesar and his expansion of the Roman Empire. Caesar wrote in his Commentarii de Bello Gallico that at the confluence of the Rhine and Meuse River a battle took place in the land of the Menapii with Tencteri and Usipetes. When these two peoples were routed by him their cavalry escaped and found asylum north of the river with the Sicambri. Caesar then built a bridge across the river to punish the Sicambri.

Claudius Ptolemy located the Sicambri, together with the Bructeri Minores, at the most northern part of the Rhine and south of the Frisii who inhabit the coast north of the river. Strabo located the Sicambri next to the Menapii, “who dwell on both sides of the river Rhine near its mouth, in marshes and woods. It is opposite to these Menapii that the Sicambri are situated". This information places the Sicambri near the lower Rhine in or near what is now called the Netherlands.

When Caesar defeated the Eburones, he invited all of the peoples that were interested to destroy the remainder. The Sicambri responded to Caesar's call. They took large amounts of cattle, slaves and plunder. Caesar commented that "these men are born for war and raids", "No swamp or marsh will stop them". After the raid on Eburones they moved on against the Romans. They destroyed some of Caesars units, in revenge of his campaign against them and when the remains of the legion withdrew into the city Atuatuca the Sicambri went back across the Rhine.

Language

Like the Cimbri, and like their neighbours across the Rhine, the Eburones, many names of Sicambrian leaders end in typical Belgicized (or Celticized) suffixes like -rix (Baetorix, Deudorix, etc.), it could also indicate intense contacts with Belgian neighbours like the Menapi, and different from other Germanic tribes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicambri


#1207    Abramelin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:31 AM

Take a look at this map (Wiki) :

Posted Image

The western tip of the orange area (Istvaenic) is where the Menapii lived, meaning: they spoke a Germanic language.


Istvaeones

Istvaeonic, or Low Franconian, is the grouping that includes Dutch and related languages in Friedrich Maurer's classification.[1] There is also evidence some of them merged with the North Sea Germans (Ingvaeones).

Jacob Grimm in the book Deutsche Mythologie urged that Iscaevones was the correct form, partly because it would connect the name to an ancestor figure in Norse mythology named Ask, and partly because in Nennius where the name Mannus is corrupted as Alanus, the ancestor of the Istaevones appears as Escio or Hisicion. There the sons of this figure are, fantastically, from Frankish tradition, Francus, Romanus, Alamanus, and Bruttus, the supposed ancestors of the Franks, Latins, Germans and Britons. This seems to reflect Frankish desire to connect the Franks with the people they ruled
.

http://en.wikipedia....-Rhine_Germanic

I also copied and pasted the part about Grimm, and that's because of that mythical ancestor.

Made me think of one of the characters in the OLB, near the end of the MS...

EDIT:

I should have added whom I was thinking of:


Kings

According to Hamconius' the Frisia seu de viris rebusque illustribus (and the Oera Linda Book).

Friso, 313-245 BC (Adel I Friso (de facto), 304-264 BC) (established a militaristic hereditary monarchy)

Adel, 245-151 BC (Adel II Atharik, 264-? BC)

Ubbo, 151-71 BC (Adel III Ubbo)

Asinga Ascon, 71 BC-AD 11 (Adel IV Asega Askar, or Black Adel) (reviled for employing foreign troops and bringing plague)


[Ask, Escio or Hisicion].


Diocarus Segon, 11-46

Dibbaldus Segon, 46-85 (? Verritus) (forced to accept Roman protection, and may have visited Rome in person)

Tabbo, 85-130 (? Malorix)


http://en.wikipedia....ulers_of_Frisia

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 October 2012 - 12:18 PM.


#1208    Abramelin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:39 AM

Here a 19th century book about the etymology of placenames (not only about the Menapii, but there are also a couple of other names interesting in connection with the OLB):


The etymology of local names : With a short introduction ... .(1865) Morris, Richard, 1833-1894.
http://babel.hathitr...;seq=7;view=1up

Page 19 (pdf numbering):

(1) GERMAN - This name was not applied to the people of Germany by themselves, but they received it from the Celts on account of their terrible war cry. The root of the word is the Celtic verb Gairmean, "to cry out".

(Geertman, anyone?)

Page 20:

(14) MONAVI (Menapi), in MAN, MONA, and MENAI straits. (Menai straits??)

Page 56:

NAP (Anglo-Saxon), a hill, peak, point, top of a hill   (could it explain part of the name of the Menapii??)


Page 61:

ING (Anglo-Saxon), a meadow. (OLB Inka.. Meneer Van der Weide?? LOL)

Page 65 (remember what I said about the Frisians dropping the initial -H- in HULK):

HAM (Anglo-Saxon), HEIM (German), UM (Frisian), HOME (English). farm, enclosed land, a village or town


#1209    Abramelin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:45 AM

OK, here the French bit. I will post it first, and then I will torture Google Translator with my highschool knowledge of French:

Origines
Longtemps les Belges furent considérés comme un peuple gaulois, ou comme un peuple germanique dominé par une aristocratie gauloise (hypothèse suggérée par le fait que les noms des chefs belges sont d'origine celtique, ainsi que les toponymes anciens et non pas germaniques. Des analyses plus précises[réf. nécessaire] des noms de leurs tribus, de leurs chefs et de leurs dieux amènent à ces diverses hypothèses: certaines tribus seraient authentiquement gauloises (comme les Remi, les Bellovaci, les Morins ou encore les Atrebates)[réf. nécessaire]; d'autres montreraient des caractères germaniques (Nervii, Aduatuci, Condruses, Menapi, ...) selon César (De bello gallico ii 4) certains auteurs suggèrent un troisième groupe, pas vraiment germanique, avec des affinités italiques (Paemani, Menapi...).


http://fr.netlog.com.../blogid=4293328


+++++

EDIT:


OK, here is what I fabricated:


Origins
For a long time the Belgians were considered a Gallic people, or as a Germanic people dominated by an aristocracy of Gauls (hypothesis suggested by the fact that the names of Belgian chieftains are of Celtic origin, togteher with the old names, and not German. A more detailed analysis of the names of their tribes, their leaders and their gods gives us these various hypotheses: certain tribes are authentically Gallic tribes (such as the Remi, the Bellovaci, or even the Morini and also the Atrebates), the others would show Germanic characteristics (Nervii, Aduatuci, Condrusi, Menapi, ...) according to Caesar (De Bello gallico ii 4) some authors suggest a third group, not really Germanic, having Italian affinities (Paemani, Menapi ...).



"Paemani"?? Is that nothing but a reshuffling of the syllables of the name Menapii??

+++

EDIT:

Lol, no, it is not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paemani

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 October 2012 - 12:02 PM.


#1210    Abramelin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:08 PM

Please bear with me...

I am trying to find out who these Menapii were, in relation to the OLB.

I still have to translate a text from Dutch into English, but an interesting name of a tribe in that text, southern neighbours of the Menapii , is "Morini", a name which appears to mean "sea people" or "sailors" (no doubt because of the MOR part).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 October 2012 - 12:20 PM.


#1211    Abramelin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:59 PM

Riviervondsten en rituele deposities uit de late ijzertijd en Romeinse tijd, in het huidige België en Zuid-Nederland
Verhandeling voorgelegd voor het verkrijgen van de graad van licentiaat in de Archeologie

(River Finds and ritual depositions from the late Iron Age and Roman era, in present Belgium and the southern Netherlands
Dissertation submitted to obtain the degree of Master in Archaeology
)

Evelien Taelman


De stam die de kuststreek ten noordoosten van de Morinen bewoonde, was die van de Menapii. De grenzen van hun moerassig en bebost gebied werden gevormd door de IJzer, de Leie, de Schelde en de Deule, maar ze bleken ook te zijn doorgedrongen tot Nederlands grondgebied, namelijk tot Leiden en Katwijk. Volgens Romeinse schattingen bestonden zij uit ongeveer 28.000 lieden. Hun buren in het zuiden van België waren de Nervii, die eveneens rivieren als grenzen hadden. De Dijle en de Dender, de Lasne, de Rupel, de Schelde en ook de Maas vormden een afbakening. Zij waren naar schatting met 200.000 stamleden. De stam die zich de Maasvallei en omstreken (een deel van de Ardennen en de Famenne, en de streek ten noorden van Namen) eigen had gemaakt, was die van de circa 76.000 Aduatuci. De noorderburen van de Aduatuci waren de Eburonen. Zij leefden in de Kempen en tussen Maas en Rijn, omgeven door de Rijn, Schelde en Rupel. Tussen de Treveri, die leefden in Centraal-Gallië, en de Eburonen waren de Segni en de Condrusi actief. Deze laatste bezetten het gebied van de Condroz. Een laatste volksstam was die van de “Zeelieden” of Morini. De Aa vormde de grens met de Menapii. Hun territorium in het noorden van Frankrijk en in België was bebost en moerassig.

The tribe that inhabited the coast northeast of the Morinen inhabited were the Menapii. The borders of their marshy and wooded area were formed by the rivers Yser, the Lys, the Scheldt and the Deule, but they were also found to have penetrated Dutch territory, namely to Leiden and Katwijk (ME: and according to another source even to Haarlem). According to Roman estimates they numbered to approximately 28,000 people. Their neighbors in the south of Belgium, the Nervii, also had rivers as boundaries: the Dijle and the Dender, Lasne, Rupel, the Scheldt and the Meuse formed a demarcation. Their numbers were around 200,000 tribesmen. The tribe that had captured the Meuse valley and the surrounding area (part of the Ardennes and Famenne, and the region north of Namur), was that of the approximately 76,000 Aduatuci. The northern neighbors of Aduatuci were the Eburones. They lived in the Kempen and between Meuse and Rhine, surrounded by the Rhine, Scheldt and Rupel. Between the Treveri, who lived in Central Gaul, and the Eburones, the Segni and Condrusi were active. The latter occupied the area of ​​the Condroz. One last tribe was that of the "Sailors" or Morini. The river Aa formed the boundary with the Menapii. Their territory in northern France and Belgium was wooded and swampy.

Posted Image


Dat de volkeren gebruik maakten van de stromen is logisch. De aan de zee levende Morini en Menapi bijvoorbeeld maakten gebruik van de Noordzee om zich sneller langs de kust te begeven. Ook de bevaarbare inlandse rivieren werden benut om op een snelle wijze andere stammen en hun nederzettingen te bereiken.60 Een niet te onderschatten element bij dit aspect is dat de rivieren de toegang vormde tot de Noordzee. Door de stroom te volgen kwam men automatisch uit in de zee, wat ervoor zorgde dat de scheepsbouw gestimuleerd werd en men van daaruit de oversteek naar Brittannië konden voorbereiden. Dit houdt in dat ze over voldoende kennis beschikten om zeebestendige boten te bouwen. Het gevolg was dat zij efficiënter handel konden voeren over lange afstand, wanneer bleek dat hun zelfvoorzienende economie door tegenslag niet voldoende rendeerde om aan hun behoeften te voldoen. De rivier kende dus een economische functie. De verbinding tussen het Middellands Zeegebied en Gallië werd tot stand gebracht door de bevaarbare Maas, Seine, Moezel, Rhône, Saône en Waal. Deze vormden de belangrijkste handelswegen

That the peoples used the streams is logical. For instance, the Morini and the Menapi who lived at the coast, used the North Sea to rapidly move along the coast. Also the navigable inland rivers were used as a quick way to reach other tribes and their settlements. A not inconsiderable element in this aspect is that the rivers formed the entrance to the North Sea. By following the streams they automatically arrived at the sea, which meant that shipbuilding was stimulated and by that from there they could prepare for the crossing to Britain. This means they possessed sufficient knowledge to build seaworthy boats. The result was that they could trade efficiently over long distances, when it appeared that their subsistence economy through adversity did not pay off enough to meet their needs. The river thus had an economic function. The connection between the Mediterranean and Gaul was accomplished by the navigable river Meuse, Seine, Moselle, Rhone, Saone and Waal. These were the main trade routes


http://lib.ugent.be/...010_0001_AC.pdf


+++++


EDIT:

Here is a map with all the rivers mentioned:

http://users.skynet....s.html#rivieren

Below the map there is an index (hoofdrivier = main river, bijrivier = tributary).


.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 October 2012 - 01:24 PM.


#1212    Abramelin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:46 PM

From page 30a of Overwijn's "Het Oera Linda Boek" (1951, second edition):

front cover
http://i6.photobucke...eous/oera21.jpg

pages 30a & 31a
http://i6.photobucke...VERWIJN1001.jpg
http://i6.photobucke...VERWIJN2001.jpg

(Dutch/English)
Teneinde een indruk te krijgen van de kust- of zeetaal, die er in de niet specifiek Friese delen van ons land werd gesproken als algemene omgangstaal en welke taal men tot het Menapisch moet rekenen,laat ik hier een specimen volgen, dat bij D. Buddingh (Verhandeling over het Westland enz. 1844) werd afgedrukt, echter zonder vertaling of commentaar.

In order to get an impression of the coastal language that was used in the not specifically Frisian parts of our country as a common language and which language should be seen as Menapian, I will show here a specimen that was published in D. Buddingh's "Treatise on the Westland.. etc" (1844), but without translation or commentary.

Deze taal werd ook in Engeland goed verstaan vóór de verfransing door Willem de Veroveraar (1080). Vóór dit genoemde jaar waren er echter ook reeds aanmerkelijke afwijkingen gekomen, maar het ging nog met het verstaan, vooral onder de zeelui.

This language was also well understood in England before the frenchification by William the Conqueror (1080). Before this year significant deviations had already developed, but it was still intelligible, especially among sailors.


Posted Image


#1213    Abramelin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:54 PM

I checked Buddingh's book (I downloaded it long ago) but couldn't find his stuff about the Menapians. It's 500 pages and you can't use a keyword search. I wanted to know from when that 'specimen' that Overwijn had copied, dated

Anyway, this is it:

- The Menapians were sailors (along with the Morini), and they were shipbuilders.
-  In the midst of their territory was the temple of Nehalennia,
- They traded with the people in the Mediterranean (or so has been suggested as a possibility).
- The Romans knew them as Menapii.
- The Irish knew them as Manapi.
- The Irish knew not only the Menapii, but probably also the Cauci (Tacitus' Chauci) and the Fresen (Frisii or Fryans).
-  No one is sure about what language they spoke, Celtic/Gaulish or Germanic, but from what I found out today it may very well have been Germanic, and with a little 'luck' a kind of Frisian dialect (coastal Frisian??)

They were known, they traded, they moved elsewhere, but the OLB doesn't say a single word about them. That could mean the Fryans gave them a different name, or that they carried a different name long before Caesar's time, or that they did not exist as a unique and separate tribe long before Caesar's time, or that the Fryans saw them as Frisians.

On the other hand, in the OLB you can read about new tribes/peoples emerging... Example: first they talk about the "Heinde Krekalanders" (near Krekalands = in Italy), later on they talk about Romans.

Well, if any of you has some bright ideas left, please don't hesitate to post them.


#1214    Abramelin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:42 PM

Wr-alda, who alone is eternal and good, made the beginning. Then commenced time. Time wrought all things, even the earth. The earth bore grass, herbs, and trees, all useful and all noxious animals. All that is good and useful she brought forth by day, and all that is bad and injurious by night.

After the twelfth Juulfeest she brought forth three maidens:—

Lyda out of fierce heat.

(Lyda was black)
Finda out of strong heat.
(Finda was yellow)
Frya out of moderate heat.
(Frya was white )

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#ac

We have all tried to find out who Lyda and Finda were, how they got their names, and if there really ever existed goddesses (or Earth Mothers if you prefer) with those names.

The only one we all know of from history is of course Freya/Freyja/Frya.

OK, so I was looking through the index of Buddingh's book, and voilå: a goddess called Leda or Lida !!

Here it is:

Posted Image



Translation:

"Lesser known Gods   305

(...) - And so we surmise there is also a goddess called Leda, after whom the Lida month (June or July) and the river Leda near Leer in Eastfriesland (Germany) have been named. Vulpius, Wb. in voce, talks about a goddess Leda, but fails to mention whether she was also venerated by the Frisians."



So, whether there was a real goddess/earth mother called Lyda or not, the only source we have now is Buddingh's book from 1844.

Or.... one of Buddingh's own sources, Christian August Vulpius, Handwörterbuch der Mythologie der deutschen, verwandten, benachbarten und nordischen Völker. (Wilhelm Lauffer, Leipzig 1826),

page 208:

http://books.google....&q=leda&f=false

http://en.wikipedia...._August_Vulpius

But Vulpius says essentially the same as I said long ago about this Slavic goddess Leda: a warrior goddess (with sword, shield, helmet and armor).

So Buddingh makes/publishes an association with a Lida month and a Leda river in German Eastfriesland, which had nothing to do with what Vulpius wrote about.

And where did Buddingh get that idea of the Lida months from?
From Bede:

(Linguistic Magazine, 1840) - article by Arie de Jager
http://books.google....ny july&f=false

Bede associated Lida with the transit or passing of the sun (June, July), Arie de Jager spends a couple of pages to prove Bede was wrong.

Here it is in English, about Lida being the months June and July:

The History of the Anglo-Saxons, from the earliest period to the Norman conquest, Volume 1 - Sharon Turner (1840)

http://books.google....ny july&f=false

Well, whether Bede was right or wrong, someone got inspired by Bede or by Buddingh...

Why are those month associations important?

"Lyda out of fierce heat" >>> summer solstice (June/July > June 21)
"Finda out of strong heat">>> march equinox? (spring?)
"Frya out of moderate heat">> winter solstice (~Yuletide, December 21)

Lyda has an association with the south & summer (solstice)
Frya with the north & winter (solstice)
Finda with the east & spring (vernal equinox)

Neopagans observe Midsummer, also known as Litha. (damn, have they been sleeping all these years?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solstice


Now where to go look for (a) Finda:

For the vernal (spring) equinox, several spring-time festivals are celebrated, such as the Persian Nowruz, the observance in Judaism of Passover and in most Christian churches of Easter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solstice

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Sorry, I'm getting tired. Otharus was right, lol. This thread is addictive. Well, for some it is.


#1215    Van Gorp

Van Gorp

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:27 PM

View PostOtharus, on 03 October 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

You think it's annoying but it would totally makes sense if it is what it is: an authentic source compiled of text written by different people in different times and regions.

All these spelling varieties would make it way to complex for a hoaxer to concoct.

I posted extensively about significant spelling variety between different subtexts this summer.

~~~

OK guys, I'm sorry but will go cold turkey.
This forum is an addiction.
I'm in a bad mood because I should have been studying and I have let myself be tempted to totally waste me time here.

I have posted enough to chew on.
Compilations of much of it are on my blogs.

All the best, it was a pleasure.
When I write a paper that is OLB connected I'll post it here, or a link.

No more small talk for me.

So long and cheers.

Yes, also the best with the further studies and thnks for all the posts.

VG





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