4027 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 07 October 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

The problem with 'spirit' is that Wralda gave them his 'breath' (of life), or ADEMA (or what was the OLB word?).

What would be the difference?

And that spirit/OD/life-force/whatever entered them only once, and from then on they multiplied like rabbits.

The difference is in the etymology of the words.

adama (OLB) I agree is breath - that is not the word spirit, the word breath is based in 'swelling' - to blow. But in Latin breath is spirit - because thats how it became known. Adema reminds me of Adam who God put breath into.

I don't really think spirit is right either - but a kind of passionate spirit, meaning not rage but 'excitement' maybe.

Old Norse derivations include œði "strong excitation, possession".
http://en.wikipedia.....org/wiki/Ã"ðr

Edited by The Puzzler, 07 October 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[Abramelin]

That's why I once translated the word OD into "lust".

Considering what the 3 daughters were about to do - breed like rabbits and create mankind - it should be close to what it really meant.

Quote

Yes, that was it.

Maybe "OD" could simply mean "lust"?

Like in "They were filled with lust".

"Entered by lust" or "Lust found its way among them" would sound a bit crappy.

http://www.unexplain...55#entry4192006

OK, final try: "They became possessed by lust"


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Edited by Abramelin, 07 October 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 07 October 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

That's why I once translated the word OD into "lust".

Considering what the 3 daughters were about to do - breed like rabbits and create mankind - it should be close to what it really meant.



http://www.unexplain...55#entry4192006

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Quote

"Entered by lust" or "Lust found its way among them" would sound a bit crappy.

lol

But yeah, I agree, it's some kind of lusty excitement possessed them inside.

[Abramelin]

And how about this then: "They came into heat" ?

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

"Lust" wouldn't have helped them much because their were no men around.

[The Puzzler]

I'd have 'inside' in the translated sentence = binna

As close to the OLB as I can.....

"Excitement tread inside them."

I don't think too much meaning is needed in the translation equating the words, because od doesn't seem to refer to sexual in general but a general excitement, but we do need to know the context, to do this.

They were delighted in the visions of Wralda and then had babies - so the 'excitement' will refer to sexual, without having to say it - imo.

[The Puzzler]

I need to go to bed now, lol, again, that was just a nap before, from too much Sunday arvo wine-bibbing.
Glad we got OD sorted though.

[Abramelin]

Well, I thought "heat", "hot" "OD"?

With a bit of luck the really old Frisians swallowed another -H- (like in HULK) and "hot" became "ot".

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 07 October 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

I need to go to bed now, lol, again, that was just a nap before, from too much Sunday arvo wine-bibbing.
Glad we got OD sorted though.

Heh, that is the only way *I* can sleep, or better, knock myself unconscious.

OK Puzz, we are done for today, 'wasting other people's precious time', right?

Sleep well.

[Abramelin]

The main problem with this OD thing is that the only source of the word we know of is Von Reichenbach.

Not one Old Frisian dictionary has the word OD in the meaning of either life-force or lust or heat, or whatever. It only has ODIE (pronounced like 'oh-dee') , meaning 'small'.

For every other word from the OLB we could eventually find explanations, either in Old Frisian or in other Old Germanic or Old Nordic languages.

Now that is odd...

And no, ODD has nothing to do with this:

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0


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Edited by Abramelin, 07 October 2012 - 05:25 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Otharus, on 07 October 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

Nice story VG, who wrote it?



A big Zwaan family in North Holland descends from Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers (1818-1878), who owned the OLB manuscript till 1848, until her cousin Cornelis Over de Linden (1811-1874) became the owner (according to his account).

See abridged genealogy below (source).

<<owners OLB till 1820?>>
(II-3) Andries Jansz OVER DE LINDEN (1759-1820)
married Enkhuizen 1782
Iefje SCHOLS (1762-1820)
child:
6) Aafje OVER DE LINDEN (1798) ==>> see (III-7)

============

<<owners OLB till 1848?>>
(III-7) Aafje OVER DE LINDEN (1798-1849)
married (1st) Enkhuizen 1821
Hendrik REUVERS (1796-1845);
married (2nd) Enkhuizen 1846
Koop Simonsz. MEIJLOF (ca.1804 - ca.1875)
(lived in house of her parents)

child:
1) Cornelia/ Kee REUVERS (1818) ==>> see (IV-15)

============

<<owners OLB till 1848?>>
(IV-15) Cornelia/ Kee REUVERS (1818-1878)
married Enkhuizen 1838
Rijkent KOFMAN (1820-1861)
(lived in house of her parents)

child:
1) Trijntje KOFMAN (1839) ==>> see (V-24)

Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers; with granddaughters Cornelia and Teetje Zwaan (?)

============

(V-24) Trijntje KOFMAN (1839-1912)
married 1858 Andijk to:
Andries ZWAAN (1830-1909)
children, born Enkhuizen:
1) Hendrik ZWAAN (1859-1919)
2) Rijkent ZWAAN (1860-1954)
3) Klaas ZWAAN (1862-1922)
4) Cornelia ZWAAN (1863-1924)
5) Teetje ZWAAN (1865-1919)
6) Aafje ZWAAN (1867-1941)
7) Andries ZWAAN (1870-1945)
8) Jacob ZWAAN (1873-1937)
9) Roelof ZWAAN (1875-?)
10) Piet ZWAAN (1877-1935)
11) Willem ZWAAN (1882-?)

Ho Otharus,

As Abe allready mentionned, story of the swan coming from miscecallenous folklore about Friesen, Saksen and Franken.

Part by Mees Struys.

http://laventana.nl/...lore1eDeel6.pdf


Thanks for additional swan info, did not know that.



Concerning the 'OD' word: I think we overlook the general use in other words still (no Norse needed :-).
All pointing to 'heritage' or precious possession (klein-ood, ode, arm-oede, Sint Oda, Odoaker, even Edmund, Odille, Odette, ge-oed...).

Many dictionaries are clear about it:
Old Germanic root ot, od (odo, auda) (as from g-od and g-oed and g-oud and h-oud and oud, all pointing to something good to have, a present from nature to cherish)

Can't be clearer why Van Dale or others use it as a general description for all kinds of (energygiving) force of nature (as birth is one the clearest and most important, being blessed with good health and old age another).

"Ooit" will it come along ->  Certainly it will exist -> And when it comes, it is the Ooie-vaar who brings it along (Oie -> Gans).  Fortunately!

Wr.aldas Od trâd to-ra binna: a^end nw bârdon ek twilif svna a^end twilif togathera ek joltid twên. Thêrof send alle ma^enneska kêmen.
World's (Nature's) bliss (impregnating force) made entrance, and each gave birth to 12 suns and 12 daughters, each Juultime a couple. And all people sprang off from these.

So indeed, people wouldn't be there if (G)'Od' hadn't entered or his bliss wouldn't be present.  Every birth is an 'ode' to this force :-)

[Van Gorp]

Many links of all kinds of Ooievaars and Ibis (-> T'Oth).  Ode-baar, still another.
Strange we can link seemingly unconnected topics here with each other (Od and the family of the Zwaan/Gans/Ooivaar/Ibis) -> trekvogel and adem-brenger.

De oude naam Adebaar (odebaar) kan gelukbrenger, bezitbrenger of adembrenger betekenen.

Ooievaar. (symb.)
Hoewel de bijbel steltvogels als onreine dieren aanduidt (‑ ibis), wordt de ooievaar elders als gelukssymbool beschouwd, vooral omdat hij ook slangen verdelgt. Daarmee verwijst hij naar Christus en zijn discipelen, die duivelse schepsels vernietigen. In de noordelijke landen wordt in zijn regelmatige terugkomst in het voorjaar een parallel met het feest van de opstanding gezien. Zijn rol als brenger van kleine kindertjes hangt daar vermoedelijk mee samen, maar hier spelen ook andere factoren een rol (bijv. de ooievaar als 'zielevogel'; contact met de 'wateren van de schepping', waaruit alle vruchtbaarheid voortkomt). Een legende uit de Oudheid verhaalt hoe de ooievaar zijn oude vader onderhoudt, wat hem tot symbool van het liefhebbende kind maakte. Ook werd vaak gezegd dat hij een hoge leeftijd bereikte, wat hem ‑ met name in China ‑ tot symbool van het lange leven maakte. Als hij rustig op één been staat, maakt hij een waardige, bedachtzame en waakzame indruk, waardoor hij ook een toonbeeld van meditatie en contemplatie werd. De diverse volksnamen van de ooievaar (uiver, eiber, stork e.a.) zouden op een affectieve instelling ten opzichte van deze vogel wijzen; de oude naam, adebaar, kan 'gelukbrenger', 'bezitbrenger' of 'adembrenger' betekenen. In de psychoanalytische symboliek wordt zijn snavel als fallussymbool opgevat en de 'kinderbron' als symbool van de moederschoot.  

Het wordt u maar in de schoot geworpen (ge-gooid).  Oie-vaar and (g)ooien are linked following good old Bilderdijk.
Een geborene wordt ook geworpen :-)

[Abramelin]

Hmmmm.........



odebaar ("stork"):

Vermoedelijk is het woord terug te voeren op Proto-Germaans *auda-bara-, letterlijk ‘schatdrager’, een naamgeving die berust op het Germaanse volksgeloof van de ooievaar als kinderbrenger.

Presumably, the word can be traced to Proto-Germanic * Auda-bara, literally 'treasure bearer', a name based on the Germanic folk belief of the stork as child bearer.

http://www.etymologi...fwoord/ooievaar

[Otharus]

Closed thread, 6 September 2011, post #6256:

"In old-saxon, "ôd" means luck, the word "ooievaar" (stork) would be derived from it..."

http://www.unexplain...=184645&st=6255

[Otharus]

Something more to ponder on:

odla (Swedish, verb)
= (English) grow, cultivate, culture, raise, breed, incubate, farm
= (Dutch) verbouwen, kweken, telen, cultiveren

odlar (S)
= (E) grower, breeder
= (NL) kweker, teler

odling (S)
= (E) culture, cultivation, production, breeding, growth, farm(-ing), incubation, tillage
= (NL) verbouw, kweek, teelt

Wralda's od came in them, and now they bore 12 sons and 12 daughters, every Yol-time twins...

Whoever believes that procreation/ fertility is driven by hatred has a sick mind, IMHO.

And these Swedish words existed before Reichenbach coined his "od".

http://www.odla.nu/


Frey, source: http://www.nms.ac.uk/ (National Museums Scotland)

Edited by Otharus, 08 October 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[Abramelin]

But no one before Reichenbach used that two-letter word, "OD".

He is - as far as I know now - the only one who did, and he simply 'distilled' it from names like Woden/Wodan/Odin.


But yes, "hatred" doesn't sound anywhere near to what to right translation should be.

Now I wonder what you are going to use as a translation of that word....

Abramelin, on 07 October 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

It looks like this OD makes them fertile, and makes them able to give birth.

Abramelin, on 07 October 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

And how about this then: "They came into heat" ?

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

"Lust" wouldn't have helped them much because there were no men around.

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Edited by Abramelin, 08 October 2012 - 08:30 PM.