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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#1486    Abramelin

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:20 PM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 17 October 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Abe...just because you have the word ARD for high , does not mean Alp or alb are not also used for meaning at height , how many words do you have  ? English has many .


We have many too, and nothing that resembles 'altar'.

The word 'altar' had nothing to do with anything 'high up', it had to do with sacrifices.

And, btw, I DID mention "Alp" as a Celtic word for 'high'.


#1487    Otharus

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:23 PM

View PostKnul, on 17 October 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

What testimonies under oath do you mean ?

I will just give the fragment from "De Gemaskerde God" (Jensma, 2004) about this (sorry English readers, no translation this time).

Page 243, comments by Jensma are marked [GJ], mine [JO].

"Interessant is het bijvoorbeeld hoe Cornelis II [geboren 1833 - JO] zijn ruzies met de jonge baron Von Eichstorff kracht bijzette: 'Vader zegt het [dat wij van adellijke komaf zijn - GJ], en die weet het uit een boek met zulke gekke letters, die we niet eens kunnen lezen; Vader maar een woord of wat'. De twee mede-kwekelingen die dit getuigenis leverden waren zo zeker van hun geheugen, dat ze een kleine dertig jaar later [vóór maart 1876 - JO] samen met nog twee inwoners van Den Helder een zogenaamde 'gezegelde verklaring' aflegden: tussen 1848 en 1850 waren ze op de hoogte geweest van het bestaan van 'het handschrift'. Het bleek toen wel dat ze dit stuk nooit met eigen ogen hadden gezien."

Uit de voetnoten blijkt dat hiernaar verwezen is in Beckering Vinckers' "Wie heeft het Oera Linda-Boek geschreven?" (1877 - p. 11, 14) en brief L.F. Over de Linden aan Ottema d.d. 10 maart 1876.

Perhaps 'under oath' was not the right expression, I don't know if they went to a notary, but at least it was an official statement.

Anyway, my point was that there were several testimonies out of the first hand form the 1870s to support Cornelis' story.

The one that Abe mentioned is questionable because it was 3rd hand and written down a century after it was supposed to have happened.

Edited by Otharus, 17 October 2012 - 07:24 PM.


#1488    Otharus

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:45 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 October 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Look Otharus, I have shown you the quotes.

My question was rhetorical, I knew you were bluffing when you said that Cornelis Over de Linden "... owned books of which we can almost read literal quotes from in the OLB".

It was me who posted the relevant Volney fragments 14 June 2011, post #5462, old thread:

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Here's a few fragments of The Ruines by C. F. [Constantin Francois de] Volney, of which Cornelis Over de Linden had two copies in his library.

Read online here: http://www.gutenberg...97-h/1397-h.htm

so that the existence of Jesus is no better proved than that of Osiris and Hercules, or that of Fot or Beddou, with whom, says M. de Guignes, the Chinese continually confound him, for they never call Jesus by any other name than Fot.

Christianity, or the Allegorical Worship of the Sun, under the cabalistical names of Chrish-en, or Christ, and Ye-sus or Jesus.

"Finally, these traditions went so far as to mention even his astrological and mythological names, and inform us that he was called sometimes Chris, that is to say, preserver,* and from that, ye Indians, you have made your god Chrish-en or Chrish-na; and, ye Greek and Western Christians, your Chris-tos, son of Mary, is the same; sometimes he is called Yes, by the union of three letters, which by their numerical value form the number 608, one of the solar periods.** And this, Europeans, is the name which, with the Latin termination, is become your Yes-us or Jesus, the ancient and cabalistic name attributed to young Bacchus, the clandestine son (nocturnal) of the Virgin Minerva, who, in the history of his whole life, and even of his death, brings to mind the history of the god of the Christians, that is, of the star of day, of which they are each of them the emblems."

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

So yes, Volney mentioned Fot, Beddou, Chrish-en, Ye-sus.

There are also sources that mention Minerva, Wodin, Alexander, Friso, etc.
Does that mean they have to be sources on which the OLB was based?

No.

What are your "almost literal quotes"?

Edited by Otharus, 17 October 2012 - 07:46 PM.


#1489    Otharus

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:13 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 October 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

If the OLB is a true ancient account using at least a 2600 years old Frisian dialect/language...

We don't know how many times it was copied (and adapted?) between the first version from ca. 600 BCE till the last version that is supposed to be from 1256 CE.

The language of the OLB is not very different from Medieval Oldfrisian from the known sources. That is why it could be translated relatively easy.

Some words and expressions are very similar to the ones we still use, not only in Dutch, but also in English, German, Swedish, etc., but some words and fragments are still a mystery. This thread has many examples where various translators disagree and we are still finding improvements. (After 140 years of OLB being publicly known!)

Written language has changed more than oral language.
Lingua Franka used to be Greek and later Latin.
The known sources are not from people who had learned to write down the oral language of these regions; they were Latin schooled.

Quote

It is said Willibrord could use his own Old English to communicate with the Frisians, because their languages were very similar. But his language would have been gobbledeegook for those using the OLB language

'Very similar' is relative. Nowaday Frisian, Dutch and Westflemish are similar.
Syntax and vocabulary are almost the same.

Now imagine three people who each have one of those languages as their mother tongue, but none of them have learned to write them.
They have only learned to write Italian (at school, as their second language).
Now they try to write their mother tongue, phonetically.
On paper the varieties would look very different, but when they speak clearly and not too fast they can very well understand each other.


#1490    Otharus

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:18 PM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 17 October 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Not saying i believe all this guys but it is interesting

Very interesting indeed, ID.
It looks like you found the perfect hangout.
Enjoy your investigations!


#1491    Abramelin

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:05 AM

View PostOtharus, on 17 October 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:



There are also sources that mention Minerva, Wodin, Alexander, Friso, etc.
Does that mean they have to be sources on which the OLB was based?

No.

What are your "almost literal quotes"?

The ones I posted.


#1492    Abramelin

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:08 AM

View PostOtharus, on 17 October 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

We don't know how many times it was copied (and adapted?) between the first version from ca. 600 BCE till the last version that is supposed to be from 1256 CE.

The language of the OLB is not very different from Medieval Oldfrisian from the known sources. That is why it could be translated relatively easy.

Some words and expressions are very similar to the ones we still use, not only in Dutch, but also in English, German, Swedish, etc., but some words and fragments are still a mystery. This thread has many examples where various translators disagree and we are still finding improvements. (After 140 years of OLB being publicly known!)

Written language has changed more than oral language.
Lingua Franka used to be Greek and later Latin.
The known sources are not from people who had learned to write down the oral language of these regions; they were Latin schooled.



'Very similar' is relative. Nowaday Frisian, Dutch and Westflemish are similar.
Syntax and vocabulary are almost the same.

Now imagine three people who each have one of those languages as their mother tongue, but none of them have learned to write them.
They have only learned to write Italian (at school, as their second language).
Now they try to write their mother tongue, phonetically.
On paper the varieties would look very different, but when they speak clearly and not too fast they can very well understand each other.

The 7th or 8th century language was a lot different from the 12th century language.

There is a difference of 4/5 centuries.


#1493    Abramelin

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:19 AM

Although I love this topic, I think I better stay away from it.

People - the regulars - think they can rekindle old discussions, just for the heck of it.

I have answered all questions long ago.

And if you don't know - or pretend to not know - where to find what, I will explain ...again:

Google this:
"keyword(s)" "archived" "oera linda" "unexplained mysteries"

And you will get all the answers you wanted.


#1494    The Puzzler

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:49 AM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 17 October 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Hi Puzzler the Celtic words Higgins used for lofty were both Alp and Alb, saying that the p and b  , were often interchanged................Abe...just because you have the word ARD for high , does not mean Alp or alb are not also used for meaning at height , how many words do you have  ? English has many .

Otharus...interesting you mention wr'alda also having the meaning oer oude , did you also know higgins thinks the saxons, angles, and jutes were all Hebrews (ioude= jouden, that were all banished from Frisia , and sent to the penal isle of Britain, some of the easiest word play would be Judes-jutes , Angles - angels, and Fresians - free sions , and that the Saxons were originally the S'occa ,sacca, saccae , sacsae , to saxae , and then saxons over a period of time......in Italy the name went from S'occa to socci , soci ,to osci to tosci ,Tusci to Truscan and eventually Etruscan.

Check it out the G'ouda Brahman are the oldest known sect of  Brahman in India , and it is thought by some at a very early date they were expelled from india, and went to settle around the Caspian sea area , and they kept their name i'ouda , which became j'ou , and j'oudah, from here they became a large tribe that expelled hosts of their people when they became too many for the land to support,

Abraham was a Brahman , Higgins says in Anacalypsa  that sara , was called saras-v'ati( from this name he has more to say about the tribe of H'ati)  They were living in a place called UR of the Chaldees, and were also called Chaldees...........Long story short......

Eventually they came to Gaul, Britain , Ireland , Frisia , from here the name Chaldee changed to Khaltee and eventually Kelt or Celt , and the sacca or sacred portion became known as the Culdee , who were a well known sect of solitary monastics , related closely to the Druids ( who are probably just Dru=True, Ids=Spirited)

In Ireland the Culdee ,Chaldee , Khalte became the Ciel-dei.. (sky-Gods, and from this probably Scy-thios or Scythians) or Celi-de, and in Scotland the Kelidei............the word Khaldt means woods , or one who dwells in the woods,and in other parts was called dwnkelt or dunkeld .....Whittaker in his book says all Gaelt , gael, kaelt , gault, gaul ,kelt, celt all come from the word for woods, and mean woodsman, wood lander or dweller in the woods,

The last Culdee (Druid) Temple called a Cel,Cil,  or Kil,Kell was in Bramham( nearly Brahman again) was in Yorkshire , and was called Beth-Rimmon in AD 936.


Not saying i believe all this guys but it is interesting,
Have you guys and gals found many connections to Fresians and Jews and or Hebrews in your searching   ???

"I came to a resolution to devote six hours a day to this pursuit for ten years. Instead of six hours daily for ten years, I believe I have, upon the average, applied myself to it for nearly ten hours daily for almost twenty years. In the first ten years of my search I may fairly say, I found nothing which I sought for; in the latter part of the twenty, the quantity of matter has so crowded in upon me, that I scarcely know how to dispose of it."
http://en.wikipedia....Godfrey_Higgins

He "scarcely knew how he was going to dispose" of the information he had collected in the latter part of the twenty years he studied this stuff. Why not write it up in a story that told a history of how he thought it could be?

I see a connection between Frisians and Jews in how Wralda is mentioned in different parts, sounds just like quotes in the Bible, he's the beginning and the end, the only God, creator, no statues, distrust of other religions, etc, not to mention Jul-like = ja-hwe-like

Letters and words in their alphabet might go back to Fryan, Otharus has a few examples and I agree with him. I also found Yod as the spark of life, god, the dot on the i - a speck, dot - od imo is the same meaning in both.

Off the OLB story but a possible entry too into Sumeria - Assyriologist Julian Oppert thought that the Gutians (guti) who entered Sumeria and onto the King List, were Goths, from Gotland maybe, the Gotland symbol is a Ram - on the King List of Gutians, there's Tirigan (the last Gutian King), who reigned 40 days (and 40 nights too I guess). Obviously foreigners, they have no idea of the local cultic practices and eventually were overthrown because "Marduk was offended." The name Tirigan has been connected to Tyr - but it appears to have been taken off Wiki these days.
Assyriologist Julius Oppert sought to connect the Gutians of remote antiquity with the later Gutones (Goths), whom Ptolemy in 150 AD had known as the Guti, a tribe of Scandia.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Gutian_people
People were in Gotland very early, they also should have been part of the Fryans, in an Eastern area inclusive to the far end of the Baltic Sea,  it says 'later' Gutones, but the Gotts, imo, could easily have left Gotland in the time frame they appear in Sumeria. Blonde, tall giants were roaming the plains around there, weren't they? .... where did the Guti go when overthrown from Sumeria, I wonder, just disappear, I hardly think so.

How are you accessing what Higgins has written, internet source or your own book of his???

Edited by The Puzzler, 18 October 2012 - 03:19 AM.

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#1495    The Puzzler

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:09 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 October 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

We have many too, and nothing that resembles 'altar'.

The word 'altar' had nothing to do with anything 'high up', it had to do with sacrifices.

Only once it got into Latin.

Age = alda in Frisian  - the oldest is the highest.

From Proto-Germanic *aldran, whence also Old English ealdor, Old Norse aldr.
Noun

altar n. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/altar

Edited by The Puzzler, 18 October 2012 - 03:11 AM.

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#1496    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:16 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 18 October 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

Only once it got into Latin.

Age = alda in Frisian  - the oldest is the highest.

From Proto-Germanic *aldran, whence also Old English ealdor, Old Norse aldr.
Noun

altar n. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/altar

Aren't you working both sides of the fence? Particularly since you've pretty much implied professional linguists don't know what they're talking about and "proto" languages are just made up out of thin air. I try to stay away from the linguistic word-play that's common to this thread, but you can't have (keep) your cake and eat it too. It's either one or the other IMO.

cormac

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#1497    The Puzzler

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 03:52 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 18 October 2012 - 03:16 AM, said:

Aren't you working both sides of the fence? Particularly since you've pretty much implied professional linguists don't know what they're talking about and "proto" languages are just made up out of thin air. I try to stay away from the linguistic word-play that's common to this thread, but you can't have (keep) your cake and eat it too. It's either one or the other IMO.

cormac
Hello cormac,
That proto Germanic is made up yes - I say it's Fryan/Frisian alda, not made up aldran. The point really was that altar meant age in Germanic languages - not just place of sacrifice, which may have been a Latin derived meaning from an original Fryan word that was used in the area prior to the rise of the Romans.

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#1498    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:17 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 18 October 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

Hello cormac,
That proto Germanic is made up yes - I say it's Fryan/Frisian alda, not made up aldran. The point really was that altar meant age in Germanic languages - not just place of sacrifice, which may have been a Latin derived meaning from an original Fryan word that was used in the area prior to the rise of the Romans.

Since proto-Germanic (whether you believe in it or not) predates Germanic which in turn predates in descending order West Germanic, Anglo-Frisian, Old Frisian and finally Frisian then no, it can't be Frisian. What you're suggesting is much like saying your great great grandson was born before your own father. Kind of ridiculous, don't you think?

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1499    The Puzzler

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:33 AM

Obviously the professionals know their stuff - but it seems open to alot of interpretation to me.

Where is your archaeological evidence for this language? Do you have proof it existed?

Give me a good answer to either of these questions and I might take your post more seriously cormac.

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#1500    The Puzzler

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:44 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 18 October 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

Since proto-Germanic (whether you believe in it or not) predates Germanic which in turn predates in descending order West Germanic, Anglo-Frisian, Old Frisian and finally Frisian then no, it can't be Frisian. What you're suggesting is much like saying your great great grandson was born before your own father. Kind of ridiculous, don't you think?

cormac
No, I said Fryan/Frisian, which meant at it's earliest point it was Fryan, maybe I'll call it 'proto-Germanic - Frisian' . Proto-Germanic, Germanic languages - may have developed from this Fryan language.

In one major[citation needed] theory of Andrev V Bell-Fialkov, Christopher Kaplonski, Wiliam B Mayer, Dean S Rugg, Rebeca W, Wendelken about Germanic origins, Indo-European speakers arrived on the plains of southern Sweden and Jutland, the center of the Urheimat[clarification needed] or "original home" of the Germanic peoples, prior to the Nordic Bronze Age, which began about 4500 years ago. This is the only area where no pre-Germanic place names have been found.[12] The region was certainly populated before then; the lack of names must indicate an Indo-European settlement so ancient and dense that the previously assigned names were completely replaced. If archaeological horizons are at all indicative of shared language (not a straightforward assumption), the Indo-European speakers are to be identified with the much more widely ranged Cord-impressed ware or Battle-axe culture and possibly also with the preceding Funnel-necked beaker culture or the Pitted Ware culture developing towards the end of the Neolithic culture of Western Europe.[13][14]

Proto-Germanic then evolved from the Indo-European spoken in the Urheimat region.[clarification needed] The succession of archaeological horizons suggests that before their language differentiated into the individual Germanic branches the Proto-Germanic speakers lived in southern Scandinavia and along the coast from the Netherlands in the west to the Vistula in the east around 750 BC

http://en.wikipedia..../Proto-Germanic

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