Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Abramelin]

He thinks Jesus was born somewhere in the 10th or 11th century AD, and he had a lot more crazy ideas.

If we have to believe him, thousands of years of history should be crammed into a couple of recent ages.

We should also forget about radiocarbon dating, and so on.

You know I don't believe the OLB MS (or the narrative itself) is as old as it purports to be, but compared to Fomenko's ideas, the OLB is as sane as you can hope for.

You know, using many posh (here: 'specialists' words) words, using lots of conspiracy theories, leaving out facts that you 'cannot use', moaning about how you are being 'silenced' by 'conservative' scientists (they don't, btw), is to me a sign you need psychological tactics to make the gullible buy your book.

However, I do agree: maybe the commonly accepted historical chronology is not a 100 % correct, but this guy is just fantasizing and corrupting facts to a degree even a Von Däniken would feel ashamed of.

But maybe Von Däniken is just not as smart as this Fomenko apparently is.

I think bringing up a guy like Fomenko will not do anything good to this thread.

It already randomly jumps through the alphabet, but Fomenko's crazy ideas will not help anyone finding out if the OLB is authentic or fake.

+++++++

EDIT:

Not being arrogant here, but I think I found something - another amazing coincidence perhaps, that I really would like some answers to.

The number 32 in Freemasonry.

COdL was into Freemasonry, the most important number in FM is 32, the number of lines per page in the OLB is 32, the number of letters in the letter sheet is 32, 2 pages are lost, 2 letters/characters are 'lost'.

Just saying.

.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Abramelin

[Van Gorp]

Fomenko definitely has a problem with Scaligers chronology..........but if he is right in his book 4 about Rome,Britain, Troy etc all occuring much later in history than admitted

and that Europe was overrun by the Monguls.. who were the Rus-sians...... who then dominated Europe for a couple of centuries

he seems to think once the Mongul empire collapsed, European Elites got together to carve up Europe between themselves , and re-wrote the history books to remove the facts........leaving place names like Rosshire , Ross Common behind.

This would be a possible reason why a book like OLB , has to be deemed a fraud , because if they admit the earlier history, they have to then explain the missing years while we were under the Rus

Fomenko can be right by assuming that much of ‘ancient’ history is a projection of less old middleage events.

How he all fills in the details is a second question, you can have your own idea’s about it and maybe have even better: but the general statement is something to consider without being labeled ‘crazy’.

General History: “More fiction than science”, Abe you should change your banner :-)

[Abramelin]

Although Fomenko is a well-respected mathematician his historical theories have been universally rejected by mainstream scholars, who brand them as pseudoscience. Russian critics tended to see Fomenko's New Chronology as "an embarrassment and a potent symbol of the depths to which the Russian academy and society have generally sunk ... since the fall of Communism". Western critics see his views as part of a renewed Russian imperial ideology, "keeping alive an imperial consciousness and secular messianism in Russia".

In 2004 Anatoly Fomenko with his coauthor Gleb Nosovsky were awarded for their books on "New Chronology" the anti-prize of the Moscow International Book Fair called "Abzatz" (literally 'paragraph', a euphemism for a vulgar Russian word meaning disaster or fiasco) in the category "Esteemed nonsense" ("Pochotnaya bezgramota") awarded for the worst book published in Russia.

Critics have accused Fomenko of altering the data to improve the fit with his ideas and have noted that he violates a key rule of statistics by selecting matches from the historical record which support his chronology, while ignoring those which do not, creating artificial, better-than-chance correlations, and that these practices undermine Fomenko's statistical arguments. The new chronology was given a comprehensive critical analysis in a round table on "The 'Myths' of New Chronology" chaired by the dean of the department of history of Moscow State University in December 1999. One of the participants in that round table, the distinguished Russian archaeologist, Valentin Yanin, compared Fomenko's work to "the sleight of hand trickery of a David Copperfield".

James Billington, formerly professor of Russian history at Harvard and Princeton and currently the Librarian of Congress placed Fomenko's work within the context of the political movement of Eurasianism, which sought to tie Russian history closely to that of its Asian neighbors. Billington describes Fomenko as ascribing the belief in past hostility between Russia and the Mongols to the influence of Western historians. Thus, by Fomenko's chronology, "Russia and Turkey are parts of a previously single empire." A French reviewer of Billington's book noted approvingly his concern with the phantasmagorical conceptions of Fomenko about the global "new chronology".

H.G. van Bueren, professor emeritus of astronomy at the University of Utrecht, concluded his scathing review of Fomenko's work on the application of mathematics and astronomy to historical data as follows:

"It is surprising, to say the least, that a well-known (Dutch) publisher could produce an expensive book of such doubtful intellectual value, of which the only good word that can be said is that it contains an enormous amount of factual historical material, untidily ordered, true; badly written, yes; mixed-up with conjectural nonsense, sure; but still, much useful stuff. For the rest of the book is absolutely worthless. It reminds one of the early Soviet attempts to produce tendentious science (Lysenko!), of polywater, of cold fusion, and of modern creationism. In brief: a useless and misleading book."

http://en.wikipedia....enko)#Reception

==

What's wrong with my banner??

.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Abramelin

[Van Gorp]

Just a joke, related to Fomenko's title 'History, fiction or science'.

[Abramelin]

Just a joke, related to Fomenko's title 'History, fiction or science'.

Well, then that is a joke I don't get.

A joke about a crow?

[Van Gorp]

Well, then that is a joke I don't get.

A joke about a crow?

I mean this banner:

Science in general and History in particular - links

But now you mention, you like crows?

[Abramelin]

That's not a 'banner' Van Gorp, that is a link to my blog in my signature. I thought you meant my avatar (the image you see left of a post).

And yes, I like crows: check my profile for the link to my blog about crows/ravens.

+++++

Freemasonry again:

The OLB letter sheet in the original MS:

The OLB letter sheet according to Ottema:

Notice the OLB letter for -G- ... (see Ottema's letter sheet). Cornelis Over de Linden (see original - brown- sheet) made a mistake, and instead of writing a mirrored -D- he almost wrote a capital G.

-G- / -D- is short for GOD.

Ottema added the letter for -GS- , but still forgot about the letter -W- which does show up many times in the OLB, and is a true letter, not a double -V- .

The letter -G- is used in Masonic symbology, and it stands for God or Geometry.

These things were not 'mistakes', they were hints.

Check this Masonic site:

http://healdsburg-fr...son.com/?p=1321

And this drawing by Leonardo Da Vinci on that same site:

In the top/left of that page with Leonardo's drawing you can see one of Otharus' former avatars.

Of course I am not the first one to discover these hidden links to Freemasonry:

Het Oera Linda bok een maçonniek document?

("The Oera Linda Book, a Masonic document?")

http://books.google.nl/books/about/Het_Oera_Linda_bok_een_ma%C3%A7onniek_docume.html?id=iGs_twAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

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Edited November 25, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

In light of the different branches of Freemasonry and their respective lodges, there are different types of Masonic rings that connect with specific symbolic meanings.

The letter “G” on a Masonic ring can represent God or even Geometry. Another common symbol found on a ring is the skull and cross bones, symbolic of memento mori, or death. Having the sun on a ring can symbolize that the ring bearer is a Past Master of the lodge. Freemasons are devoted to Geometry and three squares on some Masonic rings would represent Euclid’s 47th Proposition in Geometry.

One of the most recognizable symbols on Masonic rings is the All Seeing Eye of Providence indicating the belief that God is always watching. Open book imagery on some rings is symbolic of the quest for knowledge by Freemasons. Masonic rings commonly have tools on them such as the Trowel and Plumb Level which represent various qualities one should have in life. As Freemasons ascend to higher levels in the fraternity, a ring can be purchased to commemorate the event. Common degrees for which rings are given are the 14th, 32nd, and 33rd degrees.

An old Masonic Motto from the 1700's “Aude, Vide, Tace,” is translated to mean “Know, Dare, Be Silent,” can be found on many Masonic rings. In addition, the declaration “In Hoc Signo Vinces,” meaning “By this, be victorious,” is another common inscription. An Eagle or Double Eagle with wings pointed up carries significance for a particular degree and rite of Masonry whereas the same eagle with downward pointed wings would be for a different rite and degree. An Acacia Sprig on some Masonic rings is symbolic of Masonic ritual and hope.

http://intuitivemean...-masonic-rings/

https://www.google.n...BMMb-4QSsjoGQAg

"God is always watching"........ remember the word "WAK"? It means, 'watch, look out, vigil.

WATCH.

I have always wondered why that word, WAK, shows up several times in the OLB. And what should we 'watch'.

I think it's an abbreviation of one of the several 3 letter abbreviations used by the Masons, and I once posted about an astronomical explanation (the three letters were the first letters of two main constellations around the Little Dipper (Kroder.) plus the first letter of the Kroder :

http://www.unexplain...65#entry4149537

+++

EDIT:

The Over de Linden coat of arms COdL created, and notice the word WAK (using OLB script) at the bottom of the coat of arms.

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Edited November 25, 2012 by Abramelin

[Van Gorp]

Hi Otharus,

Haven't heard of you much since the change of your avatar.

Maybe in full preperation of your studies, all the luk.

But if you have some time, maybe you are well placed now to shed some light.

Do you have the feeling there is a clear general 'philosophical' (or whatever you name it) tendency in OLB that can be linked with some other during history that are studied in that field?

[NO-ID-EA]

Abe you have said a couple of times W is missing , but are you sure that 9th yule wheel letter is not the W , looks like in ottema's sheet , he thinks it is??

[Abramelin]

The OLB word "Wâk" stands for "wake, watch, guard, standby".

Dutch:

1 Timoteüs 6:20

Timoteüs, waak over hetgeen je is toevertrouwd en mijd het goddeloze gepraat en de tegenstrijdigheden van wat ten onrechte kennis wordt genoemd.

http://www.biblija.n...nl&set=10&pos=0

O, Timotheüs, bewaak het toevertrouwde, wegdraaiend van de wereldse holle klanken en de tegenstellingen van de zogenaamde kennis

http://www.schriftwo...1Timotheus6.htm

English:

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge "--

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)

Oh, Timothy, guard that which is committed to you and escape from empty echoes and from the perversions of false knowledge.

http://bible.cc/1_timothy/6-20.htm

More recently, Walt Disney produced National Treasure, a film that introduces Freemasonry to the younger generation. Freemasonry is a prime example of Gnosticism; in fact, the g in the Masonic symbol does not stand for God, but for gnosis—that is, knowledge. Freemasons are initiated into secret knowledge and various mysteries through the teaching of more advanced Masons. Its symbolism and esoteric knowledge draws its adherents in, modifying their worldview. The Freemasonry in National Treasure is presented as exciting but harmless, with the "secret knowledge" dealing with various clues that would lead to an old and immense treasure. (Dan Brown is said to be working on another book, The Solomon Key, believed to be about Freemasonry.)

http://www.bibletool...e-Knowledge.htm

+++

EDIT:

Dutch:

Reeds de Nederlandsche grootmeester der Vrijmetselarij J. H. Carpentier

Alting stelde vast, dat de samensteller van het Oera-Linda-Boek iemand

geweest is, die op vrijmetselaars-manier dacht en voelde, en daarom prees

hij het werk, al beschouwde ook hij het als louter verdichting uit den

nieuweren tijd.

http://www.historici.nl/retroboeken/ht/#source=51&page=66&accessor=toc&view=pdfPane

English:

Already the Dutch Grandmaster of Freemasonry J. H. Carpentier

Alting found out that the compiler of the Oera-Linda-Book must have been one

who thought and felt in a Masonic way, and therefore praised

his work, even though he considered it as mere modern forgery.

.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

Russian translation (2007) by Andrej Kondratjew of "Die Ura Linda Chronik" (1933) by Herman Wirth.

Together with Heinrich Himmler (and Richard Darré), Wirth founded the research group "Deutsches Ahnenerbe" (as part of the SS) in 1935. He left the movement in 1938.

More information (in Dutch), see herman-wirth-en-de-indo-europese-voorgeschiedenis

[NO-ID-EA]

Guys i have a couple of questions for you but first i will try to put up a vid link , as i am not very computer savvy , and apparently you had a problem opening the last link i posted here .. hopefully this will work .

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vHSK9x3HSOU[/media]

that vid called "Goffe Jansma over het oera linda boek " shows pages from OLB which are clearly fairly orange in colour , with the letters being a rusty faded brown colour, whereas Abe's recent post of page 46 with the stand , and run script both show the writting and ink , in a very bold black colour.......unless its the studio lighting they both look to me like very different copies of the OLB.

on Historum i had quite a long discussion with another member where we were both discussing , so called experts opinions of whether the writting was black or faded rusty brown , as the experts were saying this was relevant to whether there was iron pigment in the ink or not... and could lead to a better dating.

are these two seperate copies of OLB ?? and if so which is the original ?? neither of them is Ottema's copy , which one is being used to judge the dates of ink used , and the possible date that the paper was manufactured, ...........or are they both the same copy and i am just getting confused ??

On another note i would like to see a complete copy of that map Jensma shows at around 2:20 in the vid , which seems to show the Greeks in Portugal, spain , but includes them all in Fry-land......and Gog- Magog around and coming from the Kiew(presume Kiev) area, with arrows showing i presume invasion routes.

look at a few of the dates shown , medieval dates ?? this was why i mentioned Fomenko the other day.....i am becoming more and more intrigued.

I dont know why i cant get the vid to work ??? can anyone help. by uploading it ??please.....it does exist ..i have just been watching it .!!

Edited November 27, 2012 by NO-ID-EA

[Abramelin]

Fisrt the video:

You only have to copy the video-url from your browser, and then paste the url into your reply. It will (here on UM) automatically be embedded.

[Abramelin]

That the OLB pages in the first seconds of the video show up in a somewhat different color is caused by the type of lighting they must have used for the video. The pages you see on the Dutch Tresoar site are all photographed using special lighting to render the true color of the MS.

+++

EDIT:

You are right: the MS you see in the first seconds of the vid must be a copy because the original MS consists of loose and damaged leaves.

++++++

The map is from a to me unknown German book. At first I assumed it was from Herman Wirth's book in German, but it isn't: Then I thought it's because it's not copied into in the pdf, so I checked the actual online copy, and it's not there either:

"Die Ura Linda Chronik"

http://archive.org/s...age/n2/mode/1up

http://archive.org/d...a-Linda-Chronik

What i did notice is that it was actually Wirth who coined the term "Doggerland" already in 1933, and not Overwijn in 1941 (page 249 , C. Reid) as I always thought. Reid never called the former dry North Sea bed 'Doggerland'.

I also see Wirth had some ideas and insights we all her have discovered on our own (well, I have). Maybe I should start reading his tome, lol.

OK, I will try to make a better copy of that map you are talking about. I already did once, but it was blurry.

.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

The map is wrong: it places Thyrhisburg in present Tunis, but it should be in Lebanon.

The dates are BCE, not CE, and are also way off.

I don't know from which book Jensma showed us that map, I have never seen it.

But I can assure you those dates are not medieval dates.

[Otharus]

"Die Ura Linda Chronik"

http://archive.org/s...age/n2/mode/1up

http://archive.org/d...a-Linda-Chronik

And here is a version with normal letters (not the gothic type):

Content & translation (to page 128): de.scribd.com/.../Ura-Linda-Chronik-Text

"Die Einführung"/ discussion (p. 129-323): de.scribd.com/.../Ura-Linda-Chronik-Einfuehrung

"Der Bilder Atlas"/ images: de.scribd.com/.../Ura-Linda-Chronik-Bilderatlas-SW

[Abramelin]

From the Archive.org site I linked to you can also download his book (pdf) in normal letters:

http://archive.org/d...a-Linda-Chronik

http://www.unexplain...10#entry4555942

.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Russian translation (2007) by Andrej Kondratjew of "Die Ura Linda Chronik" (1933) by Herman Wirth.

Together with Heinrich Himmler (and Richard Darré), Wirth founded the research group "Deutsches Ahnenerbe" (as part of the SS) in 1935. He left the movement in 1938.

More information (in Dutch), see herman-wirth-en-de-indo-europese-voorgeschiedenis

I recently downloaded another of Wirth's books:

Der Aufgang der Menschheit - Untersuchungen zur Geschichte der Religion, Symbolik und Schrift der Atlantisch-Nordischen Rasse (1928)

[Otharus]

Abe, I hope you finally see what I mean with OLB being somehow 'suppressed' in post-WW2 Netherlands (and Germany).

It is connected with Wirth, who is connected to Himmler and the SS (even though he stepped out of it in '38).

Himmler used to send Jul-candle holders (with the wheel on it) to families of SS-members for christmas.

Admitting that you like the OLB or take it seriously, is like saying that your parents or grandparents collaborated with the nazis.

From the younger generation, hardly anyone will know of its existance, but for the older generation, it will smell like NSB.

Taboo!

[Otharus]

To be more clear:

not suppressed as in government policy (secret service), just that people don't talk about it.

[media=]

[/media] Edited November 28, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

Abe, I hope you finally see what I mean with OLB being somehow 'suppressed' in post-WW2 Netherlands (and Germany).

It is connected with Wirth, who is connected to Himmler and the SS (even though he stepped out of it in '38).

Himmler used to send Jul-candle holders (with the wheel on it) to families of SS-members for christmas.

Admitting that you like the OLB or take it seriously, is like saying that your parents or grandparents collaborated with the nazis.

From the younger generation, hardly anyone will know of its existance, but for the older generation, it will smell like NSB.

Taboo!

Sorry, not to be stubborn, but no:I don't see it like that.

Before I started writing this post, I tried to remember when exactly I heard about the OLB for the first time.

Well, I knew for certain that the first time I read about it was in a Dutch new age magazine called BRES.which I regularly bought . I googled, and arrived at Knul's site:

Grootaers, Jan - De nalatenschap van tante Aafje, of het beruchte Oera-Linda-boek. In : Bres No. 38 (dec. 1972 / jan. 1973), pp.85-103.

http://www.rodinbook...tuur120912.html

The fun thing is that I did not buy this item, but read it in the library (Bilderdijkstraat, The Hague), and..... ripped out the pages containing the article,lol ! Anyway, it fascinated me, and I needed to know more about it, although I also had some doubts about some of the things the article talked about, like - here you have it - the etymologie. However, as far as I remember, nothing about Wirth or Himmler or the Nazis was mentioned in that article.

The library itself had nothing about it, but the famous Dutch second-hand bookstore, De Slegte (the store in The Hague) had. I remember it was a hardbound book with a light-green cover and with the seal Ottema also used in his book on it. But it was in German and I wasn't willing to go read a German book voluntarily, lol, so I only leafed through it and I left it there (no, it wasn't Wirth's book).

In the years after I sometimes read a newspaper article about the OLB, but again: almost never anything about Wirth, and the Nazis.

Finally, in the 90's of the past century, I stumbled upon Overwijn's book about the OLB (second edition of 1951) in an antique book market in the Sint Pieterskerk in Leiden, and bought it without hesitation (costed me 75 guilders back then). And again: nothing about Wirth or Nazis in his book. And no one eyed me up and down when I held that 'notorious' book in my hands....

But the former owner of the book (it was signed by Overwijn himself) must have known about Wirth and the Nazis in relation to the OLB because he had cut out an article about Overwijn from a newspaper ("De Dordtenaar", Friday 22, November 1946) and had inserted it between the last page and the back cover. The article was about Overwijn's risky dealings with the NSB (collaborators) and the Nazis, he was described as somewhat of a hero of the resistance.. It also says that Goebels himself was against his book about the OLB being published, and that was about the only line about it..

I will try to make a copy of that newspaper article.

==

Anyway, I'm just saying that my impression about how the OLB was and is being treated in the Netherlands is different from yours.

The reason the OLB never got that much attention anymore, decades after Ottema published his book, is because most people were by then convinced it was a fabrication, a forgery, a hoax, or whatever label I should use.

.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Here is a copy of that newspaper article from 1946 about Overwijn:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/Abramelinn/OLB/Overwijn_article1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y225/Abramelinn/OLB/Overwijn_article2.jpg

I downsized the images because else it would take up a lot of space on my Photobucket account, but I hope you (Dutch, Belgians and South Africans) can still read it.

[Otharus]

Very interesting to read about how you found out about the OLB, as well as the article on Overwijn from 1946.

If Goebels had forbidden his 1941 edition of the OLB, that would be most significant.

Now I would really like to read that version and compare it with his post-war (1951) edition.

I don't know what to think of that 1946 article.

It is possible that Overwijn made up that story to get rid of the fishy smell he must have had by having published his '41 OLB.

There was (and is) much black-and-white thinking after the war.

OLB can indeed be read as propaganda for racial purity and as said, OLB being also known as "Himmler's Bible" says enough.

Therefore, it would be important to have confirmed that his '41 edition was indeed illegal and to know what he wrote in it (other than his translation). What was Overwijn's '41 ideology? If he was not explicit about it, it may be readable 'between the lines'.

What many people will not know is that there are actually many parallels (not all obviously) between 'New Age' ideas and Nazi (specially SS) ideology.

Significantly, Jensma mentioned New Agers in one breath (Dutch expression) with nazis and right-extremists ('new-right'):

As I posted on 17 oct. 2010:

Jensma (2004; page 17)

"This Ottema was followed by a long row of believers of suspicious character. Of them SS-Führer Heinrich Himmler is most notorious, but he was certainly not the only one. Theosophists, nazi's, New Agers and right extremists of various sorts explained and still explain this OLB as an authentic and important source for our knowledge of western civilisation."

Original text:

"Deze Ottema kreeg een lange stoet van gelovigen van bedenkelijk allooi achter zich aan. De SS-Führer Heinrich Himmler is van hen de beruchtste, maar hij was zeker niet de enige. Theosofen, nazi's, New Agers en Nieuwe Rechtsen van allerlei pluimage verklaarden en verklaren dit Oera Linda-boek nog steeds voor een authentieke en belangrijke bron voor onze kennis van de westerse beschaving."

These two videos about SS and the occult (New Age themes) are interesting:

(This is not the "Occult history of the 3rd Reich" series I posted earlier.)

I edited your newspaper article for future reference:

[Otharus]

Reasons to doubt Overwijn's resistance story and that his OLB work would have been illegal:

Source: www.oeralindaboek.nl/...dossier24

Overwijn. J.F., - De strekking van het O.L.B. Onze voorvaderen: de West-Friezen van Doggerland (Verslag van twee lezingen voor het genootschap 'Yggdrasil'). - Het Vaderland 1941, 25 Maart en 10 Apr.

Overwijn. J.F., - Thàt Ura Linda Bok, Opnieuw bewerkt en uitgegeven door --. - Enkhuizen, N.V. Enkhuizer Courant v.h. D.C. Egmond, 1941, LVII, 189, XXIV pp. 8° (get. Dordrecht, Aug. 1941). vgl [nr. *635].

Overwijn, J.F., - Merkwaardige namen en plaatsen in het O.L.B. - Ons Eigen Volk III, 1943, pp. 262-271.

.

.

.

Edit:

The founder of Yggdrasil was a National Socialist.

In 1932 was hij [Elle Gerrit Bolhuis, 1887-1970] een van de oprichters van de Kelto-Germaanse Studiekring Yggdrasil. Vermoedelijk vlak voor de Tweede Wereldoorlog bekeerde hij zich tot het nationaalsocialisme.

source: nl.wikipedia.org/Elle_Gerrit_Bolhuis

And if his '41 book would have been forbidden, it would not have been reviewed in the Enkhuizer newspaper.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Otharus