4105 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 21 January 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

So you're saying that the story about the Gola arriving in Massilia is nothing but an intermezzo, and not necessarily in chronological order?

Btw, this is the chapter:

OLB: Hwat thêr of wrden is.
Me (DU): Wat ervan geworden is
Me (EN): What it has become
Sandbach: WHAT THE CONSEQUENCE OF THIS WAS.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#ay

It suggests that it was a direct consequence, or result of what went on before.

.

It appears it does come AFTER the prior paragraph but does not need to have occurred before the following paragraph events concerning Minerva.

Quote

KNUL: You may call it flash-backs, not pertaining to the actual history, which is largely based on wittness reports.

Yes.

Edited by The Puzzler, 22 January 2013 - 01:50 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

It appears it does come AFTER the prior paragraph but does not need to have occurred before the following paragraph events concerning Minerva.

Really?

This is the title of the next chapter:


NOW WE WILL WRITE ABOUT THE WAR BETWEEN THE BURGTMAAGDEN KALTA AND MIN-ERVA,

And how we thereby lost all our southern lands and Britain to the Gola.

So you have this chapter about why and when the Gola arrived for the first time in Massilia, and then you have a chapter about how the Fryans lost their land to the Gola.

Seems to be in chronological order, doesn't it?


.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 January 2013 - 04:03 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 22 January 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

Really?

This is the title of the next chapter:


NOW WE WILL WRITE ABOUT THE WAR BETWEEN THE BURGTMAAGDEN KALTA AND MIN-ERVA,

And how we thereby lost all our southern lands and Britain to the Gola.

So you have this chapter about why and when the Gola arrived for the first time in Massilia, and then you have a chapter about how the Fryans lost their land to the Gola.

Seems to be in chronological order, doesn't it?


.

No, because it has just said AND how we lost all our southern lands to the Gola - so the losing of the lands, inc. Marseille would be AFTER the war between Kalta and Minerva.

The mention of the buying of Marseille by the Phoencians is not before the war between Kalta and Minerva - even though that paragraph is before the paragraph of the Kalta-Minerva war.

Kalta does go to Marseille - so that says to me it is possible that at that time Marseille was in control by the Sidon druids, which is a point on your side.

Edited by The Puzzler, 22 January 2013 - 05:05 AM.

[The Puzzler]

If I go with your version, it is completely possible imo that priests from Sidon could have been in the area of Marseilles as early as around 1500BC.

It could be connected to who the actual Tyrhennians were. We class them as a type of Etruscan now, sailors, pirates and people who had powerful priests as well.

For all we know these people may have been led by Sidonese priests, later becoming druids and this area was always abit of a Celtic/Gaul mix area.

Edited by The Puzzler, 22 January 2013 - 05:10 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Oddly enough I managed to find this:

The ancient name of Genoa comes from the word "knee" (Genua) or the gate to the sea or "jaw", the mouth to the sea. It was founded around 2,000 B.C. by the Phoenicians who sailed in from Tyre in Phoenicia. They came through from their settlement in Corsica and settled in Genoa with the Pagu or Tribe of Ambrones, one of the earliest ancestors of the Celts from Iberia. There is archaeological evidence in Chiavari of chariot-grave -- the "inverted bell cup" culture -- that proves this lineage. They had dominion over the Province of Padany and the area between the Eridanu River (now Po River) and Etrury. The Romans called them Ligures from the Latin verb "to settle behind."

Read more: Phoenicia, Phoenicians Founded Genoa http://www.phoenicia...l#ixzz2IgHpApeI

2000BC Phoenicians sailed and settled around Genoa with the tribe of the AMBRONES (Ligurians).
Apparently their is archaeological evidence of this.

Well thats rather interesting if true.

That's the scenario I'm envisioning. People from Canaan, early Phoenicians, arriving in Ligurian area or here Genoa and mixing, so we dont know exactly who they are now.

Genetics puts J2, a Levant group in Italy too.

More of my idea: they became who we know as Tyrhennoi.

The community of Phoenicians and Ambrones inhabitants of Genoa became pirates of the Mediterranean and were called Thyrrenoi by the Greeks. Further, they were employed as mercenaries. This is mentioned in the legend of Hercules when he returned from the mythical pillars (Gibraltar or the Pillars of Hercules) and was stopped by two sons of the Sea God, Poseidon, Albiones and Ligures.

Read more: Phoenicia, Phoenicians Founded Genoa http://www.phoenicia...l#ixzz2IgIhSc9O


The Pheonicio-Celtic settlers, or the Ligures, worshipped the god Belanu. The name comes from Bel in Celtic which means light [or from Ba'al or God in Phoenician]. There is also a suggestion that the name comes from the name of a mythical king of Tyre called Belu. Further, this god is said to have protected them from the Gryphon, a mythological beast and an archaic Mesopotamian symbol. They cremated their dead heroes and used human sacrifice in their worship every year in the month of May. They used animal names to call each other such as "Arthu" (bear), Bennu (crow), Moccu (wild bore) or Hirpu (wolf).
The Ligures were divided in three social classes, the Druids or Priests, the Military equipped with chariots, bows, spears, shields and mystical necklaces, and the Working class. A king ruled them all.
The main produce of the Ligures was the cultivation and production of olives and olive oil. It was thence exported all over the Mediterranean and the then known world.
There are reports of their megalithic monuments that date back to 1,500 BC and illegible inscription, now preserved at the Bocconi private collection. The first report of their readable phrases goes back to 800 B.C. with vertical Indo-European wedge characters preserved at the Archaeological Museum of Genoa. Of the legible text the word "Mezunemusu" or central sanctuary is identified. The word comes from Nemusu or sacred wood, the sanctuary of the Celtic tribes.
In the 8th century B.C., Pheonicio-Celts of Genoa co-founded Massalia or Marseilles with more Phoenicians.

or Greeks from Phocaea.


Read more: Phoenicia, Phoenicians Founded Genoa http://www.phoenicia...l#ixzz2IgJ8ORkg

[Abramelin]

This is about the dealings of Teunis with the people in Sidon:

When they were well established, they sent some old seamen and Magyars on an expedition as far as the town of Sidon; but at first the inhabitants of the coast would have nothing to do with them, saying, You are only foreign adventurers whom we do not respect. But when we sold them some of our iron weapons, everything went well. They also wished to buy our amber, and their inquiries about it were incessant. But Teunis, who was far-seeing, pretended that he had no more iron weapons or amber. Then merchants came and begged him to let them have twenty vessels, which they would freight with the finest goods, and they would provide as many people to row as he would require. Twelve ships were then laden with wine, honey, tanned leather, and saddles and bridles mounted in gold, such as had never been seen before.

Then the result of not paying attention to what the Mother had advised:

Teunis sailed to the Flymeer with all this treasure, which so enchanted the Grevetman of Westflyland that he induced Teunis to build a warehouse at the mouth of the Flymeer. Afterwards this place was called Almanaland, and the market where they traded at Wyringen was called Toelaatmarkt. The mother advised that they should sell everything except iron weapons, but no attention was paid to what she said. As the Thyriers had thus free play, they came from far and near to take away our goods, to the loss of our seafaring people. Therefore it was resolved in a general assembly to allow only seven Thyrian ships and no more in a year.

(...)

The result: the people from Sidon (the priests called Gola, Phoenicians or Canaannites) had heard of the riches and stuff from the Tyrians (who were not Phoenicians), and set out to see for themselves where it all came from:


WHAT THE CONSEQUENCE OF THIS WAS/ What had become of it.

In the northernmost part of the Mediterranean there lies an island close to the coast. They now came and asked to buy that, on which a general council was held.

The mother’s advice was asked, and she wished to see them at some distance, so she saw no harm in it; but as we afterwards saw what a mistake we had made, we called the island Missellia. Hereafter will be seen what reason we had. The Gola, as the missionary priests of Sidon were called, had observed that the land there was thinly peopled, and was far from the mother.

Then Kalta's dealings with the Gola (or Golum as the original text says. A dative plural):

When Kalta found that her scheme had failed she was still more vexed, so she secretly sent for the Magyars to teach her conjuring. When she had had enough of this she threw herself into the hands of the Gola;


So from this last paragraph we get the idea the Gola were established in Massilia.


From the story of Jon:

His fighting men and many of our people took women and children on board, and when Jon saw that he and his people would be punished for their misdeeds, he secretly took his departure. He did well, for all our islanders, and the other Scheldt people who had been fighting were transported to Britain. This step was a mistake, for now came the beginning of the end. Kalta, who, people said, could go as easily on the water as on the land, went to the mainland and on to Missellia. Then came the Gola out of the Mediterranean Sea with their ships to Kadik, and along all our coasts, and fell upon Britain; but they could not make any good footing there, because the government was powerful and the exiles were still Fryans.

And read the rest.

So:

-1- Teunis and his men meet the people in Sidon
-2- People from Sidon settle on Massilia
-3- Disagreement between Min-erva and Kalta, then war
-4- Kalta turns to the Gola and with them sails to Britain and eventually a people is formed from those that were banned from the Fryan lands (Britain was a penal colony of the Fryans) and the Gola: these people are named after her: Kaltana (or Kalts, Celts).

Agreed?

[Abramelin]

From the link in your post, Puzzker:

Anciently named Genua ="knee" as the sea shores shape or ="door" gate to the sea or ="jaw" mouth to the sea , was founded probably around 2'000 b.c. by "Sea People", the Fenix ( Or called "Phoenicians"one of the first civilization of mankind-history.) who sailed into the most comfortable bay of that site, from Tyrus (now in Lebanon) thru' Corsic and settle themselves upon a substrate of the Celtic "Pagu"(=Tribe) of Ambrones, the most ancient Celtic stock with Iberis, (Occidental-Hallstattian Kelti) of the "upset-bell cup" culture as prove the reports found in a chariot-grave in Chiavari, whose dominion was from Provence to Padany and from the river "Eridanu"(now "Po" river) to Etrury, they were called later by latins the "Ligures" (from latin verb "to be settled behind").

Read more: Phoenicia, Phoenicians Founded Genoa http://www.phoenicia...l#ixzz2IgUQ8vAN

I think someone was a bit over-enthousiastic...

======

Ancient era and early Middle Ages

Genoa's history goes back to ancient times. The first historically known inhabitants of the area are the Ligures.

A city cemetery, dating from the 6th and 5th centuries BC, testifies to the occupation of the site by the Greeks, but the fine harbor was probably in use much earlier, perhaps by the Etruscans. It is also probable that the Phoenicians had bases in Genoa, or in the nearby area, since an inscription with an alphabet similar to that used in Tyre has been found [citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoa

How much earlier? Hence someone added: "citation needed".

.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 January 2013 - 06:51 AM.

[The Puzzler]

The Phoenicians themselves via info from Herodotus put themselves arriving c. 2800BC and the letters of Cadmus in Greece c. 2000BC.

If we imagine these people of Canaan they really should have been around for a long time prior to 1200BC, when they are first popping up in mentions.

Then these sailors are suppose to arrived, 2800BC from Arabia - Jews and Lebanese inherit the Arab nose as it mixed in to local populations.

Io is taken by Phoenicians and she is the earliest Greek woman mentioned of note - she goes to Egypt, taken by Phoenicians.

We also see prior to 1600BC in Akrotiri a plethora of ships sailing the Mediterranean Sea, with black people on them, possibly travelling the whole Aegean and Mediterranean, prior to the eruption at 17000 - 1600BC.

Whats the time frame of Io and the earliest Greek mythologies?

Phoenicians were in Greece everywhere, at Thebes particularly and I also believe Thebes in Egypt. They probably had an association with the Hyksos when in rule in the Egyptian delta.

It wouldn't be hard to see why in the period of Punic takeovers by Greeks and Romans their old history would be covered up, so Greeks and Romans could shine through. So many people don't even realize Alexander wasn't really Greek but Macedonian. They (Greece and Rome) just both consumed the historical and religious events of the period I believe. From writing Bibles to literate notables, who knows what has been changed and suppressed over time to give them new histories.

The Iliad and also Virgils writings of how the Romans came from Troy, what is all that? I've spent years now trying to comprehend these events and they just don't gel. Virgil has the Trojans of Aeneus fighting Etruscans, a very odd thing going on if one arrived 1200BC and one not until 800BC. It's all made up nonsense to baffle us with bull****.

Let's not forget Egeria in all of this:

In this myth she is shown as counselor and guide to King Numa in the establishment of the original framework of laws and rituals of Rome, and in this role she is somehow uniquely in Roman mythology associated with "sacred books"; Numa (Latin "numen" designates "the expressed will of a deity"^[4]) is reputed to have written down the teachings of Egeria in "sacred books" that he made bury with him; when some chance accident brought them back to light some 400 years later, they were deemed by the Senate inappropriate for disclosure to the people and destroyed by their order;^[5] what made them inappropriate was certainly of "political" nature but apparently has not been handed down by Valerius Antias, the source that Plutarch was using.Dionysius of Halicarnassus hints that they were actually kept as a very close secret by the Pontifices
http://en.wikipedia....eria_(mythology)

I won't use that as an excuse particularly but certainly don't think it helps matters of investigation in these areas when looking at the 2 groups, one who took over the world and one who was taken off the world.

Edited by The Puzzler, 22 January 2013 - 06:55 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 22 January 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

This is about the dealings of Teunis with the people in Sidon:

When they were well established, they sent some old seamen and Magyars on an expedition as far as the town of Sidon; but at first the inhabitants of the coast would have nothing to do with them, saying, You are only foreign adventurers whom we do not respect. But when we sold them some of our iron weapons, everything went well. They also wished to buy our amber, and their inquiries about it were incessant. But Teunis, who was far-seeing, pretended that he had no more iron weapons or amber. Then merchants came and begged him to let them have twenty vessels, which they would freight with the finest goods, and they would provide as many people to row as he would require. Twelve ships were then laden with wine, honey, tanned leather, and saddles and bridles mounted in gold, such as had never been seen before.

Then the result of not paying attention to what the Mother had advised:

Teunis sailed to the Flymeer with all this treasure, which so enchanted the Grevetman of Westflyland that he induced Teunis to build a warehouse at the mouth of the Flymeer. Afterwards this place was called Almanaland, and the market where they traded at Wyringen was called Toelaatmarkt. The mother advised that they should sell everything except iron weapons, but no attention was paid to what she said. As the Thyriers had thus free play, they came from far and near to take away our goods, to the loss of our seafaring people. Therefore it was resolved in a general assembly to allow only seven Thyrian ships and no more in a year.

(...)

The result: the people from Sidon (the priests called Gola, Phoenicians or Canaannites) had heard of the riches and stuff from the Tyrians (who were not Phoenicians), and set out to see for themselves where it all came from:


WHAT THE CONSEQUENCE OF THIS WAS/ What had become of it.

In the northernmost part of the Mediterranean there lies an island close to the coast. They now came and asked to buy that, on which a general council was held.

The mother’s advice was asked, and she wished to see them at some distance, so she saw no harm in it; but as we afterwards saw what a mistake we had made, we called the island Missellia. Hereafter will be seen what reason we had. The Gola, as the missionary priests of Sidon were called, had observed that the land there was thinly peopled, and was far from the mother.

Then Kalta's dealings with the Gola (or Golum as the original text says. A dative plural):

When Kalta found that her scheme had failed she was still more vexed, so she secretly sent for the Magyars to teach her conjuring. When she had had enough of this she threw herself into the hands of the Gola;


So from this last paragraph we get the idea the Gola were established in Massilia.


From the story of Jon:

His fighting men and many of our people took women and children on board, and when Jon saw that he and his people would be punished for their misdeeds, he secretly took his departure. He did well, for all our islanders, and the other Scheldt people who had been fighting were transported to Britain. This step was a mistake, for now came the beginning of the end. Kalta, who, people said, could go as easily on the water as on the land, went to the mainland and on to Missellia. Then came the Gola out of the Mediterranean Sea with their ships to Kadik, and along all our coasts, and fell upon Britain; but they could not make any good footing there, because the government was powerful and the exiles were still Fryans.

And read the rest.

So:

-1- Teunis and his men meet the people in Sidon
-2- People from Sidon settle on Massilia
-3- Disagreement between Min-erva and Kalta, then war
-4- Kalta turns to the Gola and with them sails to Britain and eventually a people is formed from those that were banned from the Fryan lands (Britain was a penal colony of the Fryans) and the Gola: these people are named after her: Kaltana (or Kalts, Celts).

Agreed?

OK. Agreed.

I'll go on the Phoenicians arriving earlier in area of Marseille than said 800BC by history instead.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 22 January 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

From the link in your post, Puzzker:

Anciently named Genua ="knee" as the sea shores shape or ="door" gate to the sea or ="jaw" mouth to the sea , was founded probably around 2'000 b.c. by "Sea People", the Fenix ( Or called "Phoenicians"one of the first civilization of mankind-history.) who sailed into the most comfortable bay of that site, from Tyrus (now in Lebanon) thru' Corsic and settle themselves upon a substrate of the Celtic "Pagu"(=Tribe) of Ambrones, the most ancient Celtic stock with Iberis, (Occidental-Hallstattian Kelti) of the "upset-bell cup" culture as prove the reports found in a chariot-grave in Chiavari, whose dominion was from Provence to Padany and from the river "Eridanu"(now "Po" river) to Etrury, they were called later by latins the "Ligures" (from latin verb "to be settled behind").

Read more: Phoenicia, Phoenicians Founded Genoa http://www.phoenicia...l#ixzz2IgUQ8vAN

I think someone was a bit over-enthousiastic...

======

Ancient era and early Middle Ages

Genoa's history goes back to ancient times. The first historically known inhabitants of the area are the Ligures.

A city cemetery, dating from the 6th and 5th centuries BC, testifies to the occupation of the site by the Greeks, but the fine harbor was probably in use much earlier, perhaps by the Etruscans. It is also probable that the Phoenicians had bases in Genoa, or in the nearby area, since an inscription with an alphabet similar to that used in Tyre has been found [citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoa

How much earlier? Hence someone added: "citation needed".

.

Yeah I know, I was more surprised I actually found someone who had the same idea as I was tossing around.

I don't think it's that impossible. In fact, I find it most logical.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

Yeah I know, I was more surprised I actually found someone who had the same idea as I was tossing around.

I don't think it's that impossible. In fact, I find it most logical.

I am trying to find some archeology website,


For now only this:

Among the most outstanding colonies or trading posts (LOL) which the Phoenicians had established were the cities of Genoa, where they went in with the Celts and established a flourishing colony, and Marseille which they started as nothing more than a trading post before it became fully Hellenized.

It is very probable that the tremendous colonial activity of the Phoenicians and Carthaginians was stimulated in the 8th to 6th centuries BC by the military blows that were wrecking the trade of the Phoenician homeland in the Levant. Also, competition with the synchronous Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean cannot be ignored as a contributing factor.

The earliest site outside the Phoenician homeland known to possess important aspects of Phoenician culture is Ugarit (Ras Shamra), about six miles north of Latakia. The site was already occupied before the 4th millennium BC, but the Phoenicians only became prominent there around 1991-1786 BC.

According to Herodotus, the coast of Libya along the sea which washes it to the north, throughout its entire length from Egypt to Cape Soloeis, which is its furthest point, is inhabited by Libyans of many distinct tribes who possess the whole tract except certain portions which belong to the Phoenicians and the Greeks.

Tyre's first colony, Utica in North Africa, was founded perhaps as early as the 10th century BC. It is likely that the expansion of the Phoenicians at the beginning of the 1st millennium BC is to be connected with the alliance of Hiram of Tyre with Solomon of Israel in the second half of the 10th century BC. In the following century, Phoenician presence in the north is shown by inscriptions at Samal (Zincirli Hüyük) in eastern Cilicia, and in the 8th century at Karatepe in the Taurus Mountains, but there is no evidence of direct colonization. Both these cities acted as fortresses commanding the routes through the mountains to the mineral and other wealth of Anatolia.

http://www.cartage.o...s/colonies.html

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

OK. Agreed.

I'll go on the Phoenicians arriving earlier in area of Marseille than said 800BC by history instead.

Uhmmm.... this was the timeline according to the OLB. And it's 600 BCE, not 800 BCE according to history.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 22 January 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

<snip>

Tyre's first colony, Utica in North Africa, was founded perhaps as early as the 10th century BC. It is likely that the expansion of the Phoenicians at the beginning of the 1st millennium BC is to be connected with the alliance of Hiram of Tyre with Solomon of Israel in the second half of the 10th century BC. In the following century, Phoenician presence in the north is shown by inscriptions at Samal (Zincirli Hüyük) in eastern Cilicia, and in the 8th century at Karatepe in the Taurus Mountains, but there is no evidence of direct colonization. Both these cities acted as fortresses commanding the routes through the mountains to the mineral and other wealth of Anatolia.

http://www.cartage.o...s/colonies.html

Utica's beginnings

Utica was founded as a port located on the trade route leading to the Straits of Gibraltar and the Atlantic, thus facilitating Phoenician trade in the Mediterranean.[5] The actual founding date of Utica is controversial. Several classical authors date its foundation around 1100 BC. The archaeological evidence, however, suggests a foundation no earlier than the eighth century BC. Although Carthage was later founded about 40 km. from Utica, records suggest “that until 540 BC Utica was still maintaining political and economic autonomy in relation to its powerful Carthaginian neighbor”.[5] By the fourth century BC, Utica came under Punic control but continued to exist as a privileged ally of Carthage.[6]

http://en.wikipedia..../Utica,_Tunisia

So, either following the classical authors or archeological evidence, it seems unlikely that the Phoenicians settled in Massilia at the time the OLB suggests they did (between 2000 and 1600 BCE).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 January 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 22 January 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Uhmmm.... this was the timeline according to the OLB. And it's 600 BCE, not 800 BCE according to history.

Yes, Ive agreed that it seems likely the description as given in the OLB of the buying of Misselja is prior to the Kalta/Minerva war now.

So I stand at the time frame the OLB has it in. I think its possible ships from Canaan had been in the area of Marseille and Genoa from around 1700BC bringing in priests from Sidon.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 22 January 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Utica's beginnings

Utica was founded as a port located on the trade route leading to the Straits of Gibraltar and the Atlantic, thus facilitating Phoenician trade in the Mediterranean.[5] The actual founding date of Utica is controversial. Several classical authors date its foundation around 1100 BC. The archaeological evidence, however, suggests a foundation no earlier than the eighth century BC. Although Carthage was later founded about 40 km. from Utica, records suggest “that until 540 BC Utica was still maintaining political and economic autonomy in relation to its powerful Carthaginian neighbor”.[5] By the fourth century BC, Utica came under Punic control but continued to exist as a privileged ally of Carthage.[6]

http://en.wikipedia..../Utica,_Tunisia

So, either following the classical authors or archeological evidence, it seems unlikely that the Phoenicians settled in Massilia at the time the OLB suggests they did (between 2000 and 1600 BCE).

.

Only some Sidonese priests at first, so I doubt we'd see much 'Phoenician' evidence then, Phoenicians were good at taking on local things, becoming a new people in the process. They adapted and took on local Gods, we'd be lucky to see any clear evidence of what we know as Phoenician at that date anyway imo.

Except dna J2, which does happen to be all through Italy.