4029 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

For those who are kind of slow (sorry) :  the OLB Magiar are NOT the same as the Hungarian Magyar.

These "Magiar" are no one else but Willem van Haren's "Mager".

People from Persia, that is.

Followers of Zoroaster.


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Edited by Abramelin, 27 February 2013 - 10:17 PM.

[NO-ID-EA]

Why are we slow , that is what i said yesterday ?

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 27 February 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

For those who are kind of slow (sorry) :  the OLB Magiar are NOT the same as the Hungarian Magyar.

These "Magiar" are no one else but Willem van Haren's "Mager".

People from Persia, that is.

Followers of Zoroaster.


,

That's your opinion only.

Magyars when they moved south mixed with the Andronovo culture. These people have a long history, way prior to any mention of Persian Magi.

In fact, later on in Viking times, the Magyars moved to the area of the Don, where is placed Asaland and where Odin came from, a great centre of sacrifice.

Magyars and Finns mentioned in the OLB, co-incidently both Uralic language speakers and both mentioned as leaders and followers in the OLB and you think there's no connection??

It's not confusing: Magyar are the priests but the head priest is the Magy, the regular people are nobodies, then become Finns.

[The Puzzler]

Into the time frame of the OLB. These people only settled in Hungary 9th-10th century, they did exist way before that though, moving around various places. they even came into contact with Iranian speakers - hence why I said some of the original Magyars could have became Persian Magi.

The linguistic heritage of the Hungarians comes from Finno-Ugric peoples. A branch of Uralic speakers migrated from their original homeland near the Ural mountains and settled in various places in eastern Europe, until they conquered the present-day area of Hungary between the 9th and 10th centuries. Genetically, the present-day Hungarian population preserves much of an older European genetic makeup.^[24][25] In the Middle Ages, according to genetic and palaeoanthropological studies, the majority of Hungarians showed features of European biological descent.^[26][27]
Pre-4th century AD

During the 4th millennium BC, the Uralic-speaking peoples who were living in the central and southern regions of the Urals split up. Some dispersed towards the west and northwest and came into contact with Iranian speakers who were spreading northwards.^[28] From at least 2000 BC onwards, the Ugrian speakers became distinguished from the rest of the Uralic community. Judging by evidence from burial mounds and settlement sites, they interacted with the Andronovo Culture,^[29] furthermore, the type of Hungarians of the Conquest period shows related features to that of the Andronovo people
http://en.wikipedia....ungarian_people

The Magyar in the OLB might not have come from Atland (Aldland) - because of the way the OLB tells it - 2 groups of people came west. Only one need have come from Aldland, and that was the Finns.

The priests in Jessos time are not native to the area. But the priests, who came from another country, traced out these people and had them burnt, so that they do not dare to declare openly their creed. In this country all the priests are fat and rich. In their churches there are all kinds of monstrous images, many of them of gold.
Same priests have the churches and statues.

Interesting that the Yren (Iranians/Persians) fled from the Magy's customs and religion.

To the west of the Punjab are the Yren (Iraniers), or morose (Drangianen), the Gedrosten (Gedrosiers), or runaways, and the Urgetten, or forgotten. These names are given by the priests out of spite, because they fled from their customs and religion. On their arrival our forefathers likewise established themselves to the east of the Punjab, but on account of the priests they likewise went to the west. In that way we learned to know the Yren and other people. The Yren are not savages, but good people, who neither pray to nor tolerate images; neither will they suffer priests or churches; but as we adhere to the light of Fasta, so they everywhere maintain fire in their houses.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi


Zoroaster is a form of Jesus imo - but the Persians didn't want to worship him the way the Magi wanted them too, I don't think the Magi and the Persians were quite as friendly as history would have us believe. Not forgetting this: "Darius ascended the throne by overthrowing Gaumata, the alleged magus usurper of Bardiya with the assistance of six other Persian noble families; Darius was crowned the following morning."  Herodotus reports on it too and they shouldn't be underestimated: " No member of the Achamenid family would rise against Gaumata for the safety of their own life."   The Magi came in through the Medean side of the Royal Family as far as I am aware. (Cyrus' mother was a Medean princess) So it would be natural that they would embed themselves in them, but the Persians worshipped the fire and didn't have churches or statues...
(Like Rasputin and Alexandra connection, let's bring in the magic guy even though no one really likes him, trusts him or wants him here.)

The Magi then announce Jesus arrival as a son of God, a good way to start your own religion and have everyone build churches and Jesus idols and give money to you and get rich, those Magi were no dummies, they were 'wise men'. Persia disappeared into oblivion while Christianity told hold all over the world.

The OLB is saying the concept of what Jesus taught is true and he existed but the priests manipulated it and created all this crap that goes with it, when really Jessos was a pure flame, like Zoroaster (and Frya).

Funny enough, the Pope resigns today.

Edited by The Puzzler, 28 February 2013 - 03:16 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Knul, on 25 February 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

This is extremely important, because it would mean that the name Magjari in the OLB has been badly chosen and has nothing to do with the Magyars or Hungary and that it would be just a title, something like king in the Northern countries.

In Ugric Magy can mean 'those who speak' - Magyar = men of those who speak. http://en.wikipedia....rian_prehistory

Badly chosen, I don't think so.

Also I just showed the original Hungarian Magyar moved to the Don and Snorri has that area as where Odin came from, not hard to then connect the mention of them by him as being at Ragnorok.

Edited by The Puzzler, 28 February 2013 - 02:59 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 28 February 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

That's your opinion only.

Magyars when they moved south mixed with the Andronovo culture. These people have a long history, way prior to any mention of Persian Magi.

In fact, later on in Viking times, the Magyars moved to the area of the Don, where is placed Asaland and where Odin came from, a great centre of sacrifice.

Magyars and Finns mentioned in the OLB, co-incidently both Uralic language speakers and both mentioned as leaders and followers in the OLB and you think there's no connection??

It's not confusing: Magyar are the priests but the head priest is the Magy, the regular people are nobodies, then become Finns.

That's my opinion indeed, but based on what the OLB itself tells us.

I actually quoted the part that says that their priests (their = FINNA) were called 'Magjar' and the headmen Magy. So we have a people of whom the OLB says had no name, so the Fryans called them FINNA, and with priests called Magjar. The Finna were the common people of that tribe, and carried stone weapons, while their priests, the Magiar carried copper weapons.

These Finna had temples/churches with statues, 'just like the Egyptians'..... and so nothing like the MagYar people/tribe we know of.

It is indeed like Goffe Jensma said in his book: the writers of the OLB just tossed similar sounding names on one heap, not caring whether it was all anachronistic, and created a new people.

And Willem van Haren called them Mager, Persian followers of Zoroaster.



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Edited by Abramelin, 28 February 2013 - 06:48 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 28 February 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

In Ugric Magy can mean 'those who speak' - Magyar = men of those who speak. http://en.wikipedia....rian_prehistory

Badly chosen, I don't think so.

Also I just showed the original Hungarian Magyar moved to the Don and Snorri has that area as where Odin came from, not hard to then connect the mention of them by him as being at Ragnorok.

Just look at the timeline (your link) :


Hungarian prehistory (Hungarian: magyar őstörténet) refers to the prehistoric Magyars (Hungarians), from the time when they separated from Common Ugric (estimated to correspond to the early 1st millennium BC) until their conquest of the Carpathian Basin in the late 9th century (known as Honfoglalás "Landtaking" in Hungarian historiography).
-
Climate changes around 1300 BC resulted in the northward expansion of the steppes which compelled several groups within the proto-Ugric people to turn to the nomadic lifestyle. This change was strengthened by the several proto-Iranian groups living south of them who had been practicing pastoral nomadism and whose influence on the proto-Ugric people can be proven by several loanwords in their languages. The formation of the Hungarian language occurred around this time (between 1000 BC and 500 BC) and can be localized to the southern regions of the Ural Mountains.

http://en.wikipedia....rian_prehistory

[Abramelin]

From the OLB:



One hundred and one years after the submersion of Aldland a people came out of the East (2194-101=2093 BCE).

That people was driven by another.

Behind us, in Twiskland, they fell into disputes, divided into two parties, and each went its own way.

Of the one no account has come to us, but the other came in the back of our Schoonland, which was thinly inhabited, particularly the upper part.

Therefore they were able to take possession of it without contest, and as they did no other harm, we would not make war about it.

Now that we have learned to know them, we will describe their customs, and after that how matters went between us.

They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their temples/churches.

The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magiara, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one.

The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finna, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect.

But still they are not to be envied, because they are slaves to their priests, and still more to their creeds.

They believe that evil spirits abound everywhere, and enter into men and beasts, but of Wr-alda’s spirit they know nothing.

They have weapons of stone, the Magiara of copper.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#aw

[Abramelin]

Now why were these people called FINNA by the Fryans? They were not portrayed as a very happy people: they were slaves to their priests and even more to their creeds, melancholic, very formal....


This is from a book about the island of Texel:

Zo was het dorp Oosterend in twee kampen verdeeld - en het is dat tot op zekere hoogte nog wel - , te weten in het kamp van de 'fijnen' en in dat van de 'groven'. De 'fijnen' zijn de gereformeerden en orthodox hervormden, de 'groven' bestaan uit vrijzinnig hervormden, katholieken, doopsgezinden en onkerkelijken.

Such was the village Oosterend divided into two camps - and it is to some extent still -, namely in the camp of the 'fine (delicate)' and that of the 'rude'. The 'fine' are the Reformed and Orthodox Reformed, the 'rude' consist of liberal reformers, Catholics, Mennonites and unchurched.


http://books.google....ligieus&f=false


We still call certain strictly religious people 'Fijnen' (they mainly live in the Dutch 'Bible Belt'): they are not allowed to dance or listen to popular music, they are not allowed to watch television, they are not allowed to go out and have fun, go to a cinema or theater, they wear only or mainly black clothes, women are not allowed to wear pants, they are not allowed to do anything resembling work on Sundays, many walk with their heads bent down in submission, they follow the Bible to the letter, think that humans are basically sinners with little hope of salvation, their minister ("voorganger") is boss, vaccinations are forbidden, insurance is forbidden, the devil is everywhere and in everything, and so on.

In short, a 'happy lot'.... these 'Fijnen'.

And then we have the Fryans... Fry, like in 'free' (that's how you pronounce 'Fry'), they are NOT slaves to their priests and creed, they are 'liberal'.

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Edited by Abramelin, 28 February 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[NO-ID-EA]

This sounds like the early splitting of the Jews , where half of them stood on a mountain and shouted across the valley all the blessings of God, and the other half stood on another mountain shouting back all the curses of God to the others.

why do we think the magi , and the majiar are different people they are more likely different branches of the same people, the Volga was a natural highway for the Rus in one direction , and so would be for people from the East in the other.

do you not see any probable connections with the Rus and CyRus , with the Yren , and the isles of Erin , the book called the lebor gabala Eren , the old irish book of the taling of Eren, the town of Budapest which was divided into two communities those of Pest (of - Est(a)) and those of Buda , dont you look at names like Gaumata and see Gautama Buda.

[Abramelin]

NO-ID-EA, on 28 February 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

This sounds like the early splitting of the Jews , where half of them stood on a mountain and shouted across the valley all the blessings of God, and the other half stood on another mountain shouting back all the curses of God to the others.

why do we think the magi , and the majiar are different people they are more likely different branches of the same people, the Volga was a natural highway for the Rus in one direction , and so would be for people from the East in the other.

do you not see any probable connections with the Rus and CyRus , with the Yren , and the isles of Erin , the book called the lebor gabala Eren , the old irish book of the taling of Eren, the town of Budapest which was divided into two communities those of Pest (of - Est(a)) and those of Buda , dont you look at names like Gaumata and see Gautama Buda.

I look at what the OLB tells us: there was no people called the 'Magiara', but there was a people called Finna. It's only their priests who were called Magiara and the headman of this caste of priests was called Magy.

And these Finna arrived in 2093 BCE, long before any MagYar showed up in Europe.

But to me it's really all poppycock. Just read what I posted about the "Fijnen": they fit the picture of the Finna like a glove.

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Edited by Abramelin, 28 February 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Apol]

Knul, on 27 February 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

I can hardly believe that, because the whole of the OLB describes the Celtic time before the Romans.  Besides OLB states, that the Saxman [Saks] Storo reigned over the haga fenna [Hoge Venen] and walda [Friese Wouden} and took care of Buda  [?] and Mannagardaforda [?]. Ottema identified Mannagardaforda as Munster, but I would rather identify it as Munksgaard in Danmark. In that case Buda (Beuten ?) should be in Danmark as well. Both Buda and Mannagardaforda were Frisian setlements beyond the territory of Haga Fenna [Hogeveen in Drente, not in Belgium] and Walda, governed by a Saxman. The Haga Fenna and Walda make me think of the territory south of Groningen.

The ancient Frisian name may have been Bvda, and then the Romans came and wrote Bata - from what it sounded like to them.

I agree in that it would have been a liberating thing if we were able to link Hâga Fênna and Walda to the neighbouring communities Hoogeveen and De Wolden. I have found no reason to doubt that Mannagardaforda is Münster, though. But who knows, maybe we have been wrong all the time? Mannagardaforda could not be in Denmark, though - of the simple reason that it is written that it was in Saxanamarka [Sachsen].

Hâga Fênna cannot be the Hoge Venen in Belgium - that's right, because in that area you have the burghs Aken [Aachen], Ljvdburch [Liège] and Kâtsburch [Kassel] which all belonged to Sûdar Flílânda.
Still, though, 'Abramelin's theory that Bvda may have been situated in the area of Bodensee may be of some interest - there you have the burg Bodman, the Altbodman burgh ruins and Burg Hals in close proximity to each other. But if we should look at names, the Bodenburg in Bad Salzdetfurth in Niedersachsen, and the burg Bodenlaube in Bad Kissingen in Bayern might be worth taking a look at also. There is a historical neighbourhood named Buda in the Belgian city of Courtray, but it is in a wrong place.

[Abramelin]

Apol, on 28 February 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

<snip>

Hâga Fênna cannot be the Hoge Venen in Belgium - that's right, because in that area you have the burghs Aken [Aachen], Ljvdburch [Liège] and Kâtsburch [Kassel] which all belonged to Sûdar Flílânda.

<snip>

The Sûdar Flílânda cannot possibly be where you think it is (area around Aachen, Luik and Kassel) because there is no river called Fly/Vlie. Flyland is the area directly left, right and south of of this (former) river.

Ljvdburch = Leidse Burgh (in Leiden)
Kâtsburch = Kattenburg (in Amsterdam, Knul's idea)
Aken = ? I thought Ockenburg (in The Hague)


On this old map of the Netherlands you can see the Flie/Vlie river in the top-left corner of the country:





Click thumbnail to enlarge:

 VLIE.jpg   129.8K   5 downloads

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Edited by Abramelin, 28 February 2013 - 10:50 AM.

[Abramelin]

Location Aken:


From the OLB:

Fon Texland gvngon hja nêi Westflyland en sa allingen tha sê nêi Walhallagâra hin. Fon Walhallagâra brûdon hja allingen thêra sûder Hrênum al ont hja mith grâta frêse boppa thêre Rêne bi tha Marsâta kêmon hwêrfon vsa Apollânja skrêven heth. Tho hja thêr en stût wêst hêde, gvngon hja wither nêi tha delta. As hja nw en tid lông nêi tha delta offâren wêron al ont hja inna strêk fon thêre alda burch Aken kêmon, sind thêr vnwarlinga fjuwer skalka morth and naked uteklât.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bv


My translation into Dutch:

Van Texland gingen zij naa Westflyland en zo langs de zee naa Walhallagara heen. Van Walhallagara trokken zij op langs de zuider Rijn totdat zij met grote vreze boven de Rijn bij de Marsata kwamen waarvan onze Apollânia (ge)schreven heeft. Toen zij daar een tijd (ge)weest hadden/waren, gingen zij weder naa de delta. Als zij nu een tijd lang naa de delta op(ge)varen waren totdat ze in een strekke van de oude burght Aken kwamen, zijn daar onverwacht vier knechten/slaven vermoord en naakt uit(ge)kleed.

My translation into English:

From Texland they went to Westflyland and so along the sea to Walhallagara. From Walhallagara they pulled up along the South Rhine (the Waal?) until they - with great fear - arrived above the Rhine at the Marsata of whom our Apollânia has written. When they had stayed there some time, they returned to the delta. After sailing up the delta for a while and were within reach of the old burgh of Aken, four servants/slaves were murdered unawares and stripped naked.


Is the present-day city of Aken/Aachen located in the delta (or lowlands as Sandbach translated the word)?

I didn't think so.

It's also not anywhere near the Rhine.

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Edited by Abramelin, 28 February 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 28 February 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Now why were these people called FINNA by the Fryans? They were not portrayed as a very happy people: they were slaves to their priests and even more to their creeds, melancholic, very formal....


This is from a book about the island of Texel:

Zo was het dorp Oosterend in twee kampen verdeeld - en het is dat tot op zekere hoogte nog wel - , te weten in het kamp van de 'fijnen' en in dat van de 'groven'. De 'fijnen' zijn de gereformeerden en orthodox hervormden, de 'groven' bestaan uit vrijzinnig hervormden, katholieken, doopsgezinden en onkerkelijken.

Such was the village Oosterend divided into two camps - and it is to some extent still -, namely in the camp of the 'fine (delicate)' and that of the 'rude'. The 'fine' are the Reformed and Orthodox Reformed, the 'rude' consist of liberal reformers, Catholics, Mennonites and unchurched.


http://books.google....eus&#38;f=false


We still call certain strictly religious people 'Fijnen' (they mainly live in the Dutch 'Bible Belt'): they are not allowed to dance or listen to popular music, they are not allowed to watch television, they are not allowed to go out and have fun, go to a cinema or theater, they wear only or mainly black clothes, women are not allowed to wear pants, they are not allowed to do anything resembling work on Sundays, many walk with their heads bent down in submission, they follow the Bible to the letter, think that humans are basically sinners with little hope of salvation, their minister ("voorganger") is boss, vaccinations are forbidden, insurance is forbidden, the devil is everywhere and in everything, and so on.

In short, a 'happy lot'.... these 'Fijnen'.

And then we have the Fryans... Fry, like in 'free' (that's how you pronounce 'Fry'), they are NOT slaves to their priests and creed, they are 'liberal'.

.

That's all fine and dandy they have a similar name but it doesn't explain the existance of actual people called Finns and what the etymology of their name is, which could very well be just the same.

The Icelandic Eddas and Norse sagas (11th to 14th centuries), some of the oldest written sources probably originating from the closest proximity, use words like finnr and finnas inconsistently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns

Edited by The Puzzler, 28 February 2013 - 01:12 PM.