4029 replies to this topic

[gestur]

On page 5 of the MS, line 20, AKEN is also spelled with a dot between A and KEN (A-KEN).

KEN may be the same root-word as in KENING (king).

[gestur]

MS page 83, line 6-7
AS HJU TO FARA NA NЄDE KENÐ

Page 164, line 30-31
ÐЄRÐRVCH HÆVON WI ÐA YRA ÆND ÐA ʘÐERA KENNA LЄRÐ

Page 166, line 20-21
ÐA GRATESTE KENNAÐ EN ELE KV VRSLYNNA

Page 167, line 3-4
NʘMA ÐЄR IK ALLE NIT NOMA NI KEN

Etcetera.

[lilthor]

god i love this thread...it just never gets old

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 07 March 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

That's all I pretty much meant too. How can we know Romans called this place Aken, Aquae Grannis is not really 'Aken'.

Aa-ken might mean 'to feel or see water' - with ken based in 'to know, perceive, to feel'.   

Aken doesn't appear in the Frisian dictionary so could have been a name only word.

It might be co-incidence that ak is in both aqua and Aken but Aken might not mean aqua/water but water/aa+ken

It seems obvious that Aken had to do with Aquae because, even in the old times, Aken was known for its  hot sulphur springs.

But now look at this list of Belgian placenames:

http://www.eupedia.c...ace_names.shtml

It appears that several cities in Belgium, west of Aken, ended with this -aken (like Bastenaken), but they (and these endings) are explained as Celtic and/or Latin words/names.


Suffixes in -ogne

This suffix comes from the Latin -onia (e.g. Nassonia => Nassogne), meaning roughly "property of" (just -inas and -acum). Some names might also descend from the Gaulish -onna, normally rendered as -onne or -on. Until the 18th century the traditional spelling of -ogne was -oigne. It has only survived in Seloignes, Loupoigne and Jodoigne (which are nevertheless pronounced -ogne). As always names have mutated with time (Chevetogne was mentioned as Caventonia in 956), although Latin names tended to be better preserved than Germanic ones in Wallonia. Most of the suffixes in -ogne are located in the southern half of the provinces of Namur and Liege. Bastogne is translated as Bastenaken, and Jodoigne as Geldenaken in Dutch, in accordance with the Latin origin (see -aken above). Names in -oing are corruptions of -oigne (e.g. Antoing, Warcoing) and fit in the same category.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 March 2013 - 09:27 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 07 March 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

I know it's Franks. The word in the OLB is Franka so maybe Franken is right.

I do believe what the OLB says. I don't think however that passage in question refers to them (Twisklanders/Franken) going to Alderga, Lydasburgt or touring Stavera. That is Adel and his wife imo.

I do think they (Twisklanders/Franks) did cross the Rhine into Aachen and proceeded to move west and north as time went on, settling into the whole area eventually.

Is Adel in 600BC?

"Franken" is the Dutch plural of 'Frank'. So in English it would be 'Franks'.

-

And this is what the OLB says:

The Twisklanders who had done the wicked deed called themselves Frijen or Franken.

That 'wicked deed' was the killing of the 4 slaves/servants.

-

According to the OLB chronology, it must have happened in the 6th century BCE.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 07 March 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

"Franken" is the Dutch plural of 'Frank'. So in English it would be 'Franks'.

-

And this is what the OLB says:

The Twisklanders who had done the wicked deed called themselves Frijen or Franken.

That 'wicked deed' was the killing of the 4 slaves/servants.

-

According to the OLB chronology, it must have happened in the 6th century BCE.

I know the 4 Franks killed the slaves/servants. I never said they didn't. It's a matter of WHERE they killed them.

Adel's timeframe is not 6th century BCE.

Friso is in the time of Alexander the Great and Adel is Friso's son.

Edited by The Puzzler, 08 March 2013 - 12:44 AM.

[The Puzzler]

gestur, on 07 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

There may be a clue on page 2 of the manuscript, line 13:

ÐACH ÐÆT ELLA IS JO SELVA A-KEN

Ottema - Dutch:

Doch dat alles is u zelven ook bekend

Sandbach - English:

This is well known to you

Wirth - German:

Doch dies hieße euch Bekanntes vermehren

Lien - Norwegian:

Det er dog alt (sammen) velkjent for dere

Yes, ken is also 'to know, perceive'.  http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ken

Northern and Scottish dialects from Old English cennan ("make known, declare, acknowledge") originally “make to know”, causative of cunnan ("to become acquainted with, to know"), from Old Norse kenna ("know, perceive"), from Proto-Germanic *kannijanan, causative of *kunnanan (“be able”). Cognate to German kennen ("to know, be acquainted with someone/something").
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ken

ache is also an aken word.

Middle English aken (v), and ache (noun), from Old English acan (v)
http://www.memidex.com/ached

perceive (pain) = ache


It might not even have the root for water in it - the a might just be 'a' - 'a well-known' (place) or even 'a kin' (other Fryan people)


There is many variations on the word apart from being named from Latin aqua.

Aachen could be aqua - aa+chen

but Aken might not be - a+ken

Considering water is wêter in the OLB and a is je - it's possible its a-ken with no reference to water in Frisian. We don't use any sort of a or aa or ae for water in English (except sea which is kinda like it) and the OLB uses water/weter too, so aa etc for water might not even be an original Frisian word, it might be a different Germanic, like the suffix -chen - Aa-chen then fits as water.

The long a is water -  aa  

Depends if the A is actually a long a or just a.

Edited by The Puzzler, 08 March 2013 - 01:41 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 07 March 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

It seems obvious that Aken had to do with Aquae because, even in the old times, Aken was known for its  hot sulphur springs.

But now look at this list of Belgian placenames:

http://www.eupedia.c...ace_names.shtml

It appears that several cities in Belgium, west of Aken, ended with this -aken (like Bastenaken), but they (and these endings) are explained as Celtic and/or Latin words/names.


Suffixes in -ogne

This suffix comes from the Latin -onia (e.g. Nassonia => Nassogne), meaning roughly "property of" (just -inas and -acum). Some names might also descend from the Gaulish -onna, normally rendered as -onne or -on. Until the 18th century the traditional spelling of -ogne was -oigne. It has only survived in Seloignes, Loupoigne and Jodoigne (which are nevertheless pronounced -ogne). As always names have mutated with time (Chevetogne was mentioned as Caventonia in 956), although Latin names tended to be better preserved than Germanic ones in Wallonia. Most of the suffixes in -ogne are located in the southern half of the provinces of Namur and Liege. Bastogne is translated as Bastenaken, and Jodoigne as Geldenaken in Dutch, in accordance with the Latin origin (see -aken above). Names in -oing are corruptions of -oigne (e.g. Antoing, Warcoing) and fit in the same category.

.

I showed a similar thing with -chen in German

Aachen

chen meaning a diminutive/neutral

It depends then if the word is made up of Frisian words a+ken or if chen/ken is a Germanic suffix on it.

Edited by The Puzzler, 08 March 2013 - 01:36 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 07 March 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

It seems obvious that Aken had to do with Aquae because, even in the old times, Aken was known for its  hot sulphur springs.


.

My brain works in the way that I take the Latin word, and put if after the Fryan word in time, consider the Romans arrived at an already named place and give it an equal Latin name rather than invent the name themselves.

Just a sideline, my Scottish friend's mother says kenna all the time in broad Scots, like: kenna Jack go? I thought she was saying can...but never really knew what she said although I knew she wanted to know where he was - but now I get what's she's saying - like 'do I know where Jack went?'

Edited by The Puzzler, 08 March 2013 - 01:53 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 08 March 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

I showed a similar thing with -chen in German

Aachen

chen meaning a diminutive/neutral

It depends then if the word is made up of Frisian words a+ken or if chen/ken is a Germanic suffix on it.

But it was a settlement of Celts, not Germans, so it seems kind of logical to look for an explanation in a Celtic language.

I must add that the link to the site about Belgian placenames seems to suggest most were translations from Latin into Celtic.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 08 March 2013 - 01:59 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 08 March 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

I know the 4 Franks killed the slaves/servants. I never said they didn't. It's a matter of WHERE they killed them.

Adel's timeframe is not 6th century BCE.

Friso is in the time of Alexander the Great and Adel is Friso's son.

Yes, you are right. I was busy with some other story in the OLB.

But then still it happened around the 3d century BCE,

Some 6-700 years before the Franks showed up.

If the Romans would have encountered them in the 1st century CE, they would have mentioned them.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 08 March 2013 - 02:01 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 08 March 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

Yes, you are right. I was busy with some other story in the OLB.

But then still it happened around the 3d century BCE,

Some 6-700 years before the Franks showed up.

If the Romans would have encountered them in the 1st century CE, they would have mentioned them.

.

Yes, 3rd century BC and yes, still way too early for the history books I know.

In the 3rd century a number of large West Germanic tribes emerged: Alemanni, Franks, Chatti, Saxons, Frisii, Sicambri, and Thuringii. Around 260, the Germanic peoples broke into Roman-controlled lands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany

The Franks (Latin: Franci or gens Francorum) were a confederation of Germanic tribes first attested in the third century AD as occupying land on the Lower and Middle Rhine. In the 3rd century some Franks raided Roman territory, while others joined the Roman troops in Gaul. The Salian Franks formed a kingdom on Roman-held soil that was acknowledged by the Romans after 357.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

However, as a confederation of Germanic tribes, they may have existed much earlier than their first mention when they raided Roman territory.

The OLB has them described as just that - raiders.

They are all horsemen and robbers. This is what makes the Twisklanders so bloodthirsty. The Twisklanders who had done the wicked deed called themselves Frijen or Franken.

I'm not sure when Konered writes, at the time of the event they might have been Twisklanders but when Konered writes he tells us they called themselves Franken (maybe at a later time).

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 08 March 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

But it was a settlement of Celts, not Germans, so it seems kind of logical to look for an explanation in a Celtic language.

I must add that the link to the site about Belgian placenames seems to suggest most were translations from Latin into Celtic.

.

Well, Celts only arrived in the Iron Age... but Scottish is Celtic, and they say kenna for know - so it's the same as the way it's been used in the OLB. gestur showed us this:ÐACH ÐÆT ELLA IS JO SELVA A-KEN

Ottema - Dutch:

Doch dat alles is u zelven ook bekend

Sandbach - English:

This is well known to you


Flint quarries on the Lousberg, Schneeberg, and Königshügel, first used during Neolithic times (3,000-2,500 b.c.), attest to the long occupation of the site of Aachen, as do recent finds under the modern city's Elisengarten pointing to a former settlement from the same period. Bronze Age (ca. 1600 b.c.) settlement is evidenced by the remains of barrows (burial mounds) found, for example, on the Klausberg. During the Iron Age, the area was settled by Celtic peoples^[6] who were perhaps drawn by the marshy Aachen basin's hot sulphur springs where they worshiped Grannus, god of light and healing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aachen

It might just mean 'a famous place, well-known'.

Edited by The Puzzler, 08 March 2013 - 02:41 AM.

[Apol]

Knul, on 07 March 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

The Old Frisians regarded the golden Rhine river as their own property. So the new burchfam - after installation - once had to make a boat trip to see the property. On the way back to Frisia they arrived as far as Leyden and moved on to WestFryasland and Eastfryasland over inland waterways. How would they get by boat to Aken (Aachen) or Liege ?

I don't know how they went there, but I can make a guess. Apollânja went by land, though:

min fârt is alingen ðêre Rêne wêst. ðjus kâd vpward. alingen ðêre ôre síde ofward.

I don't know whether Adel and Jfkja went by land or by boat - and if they went to Aken at all. If they went to Aken and used boats, they may have sent some messengers to the burgh way beforehand. The burgh would then have sent their own horse equipage to the bank of the Rhine for bringing them safely to the burgh. This would also mean extra wêrar for protection.
They may even have sent their wêrar as an extra protection for Apollânja and her attendants.

[Knul]

Apol, on 08 March 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

I don't know how they went there, but I can make a guess. Apollânja went by land, though:

min fârt is alingen ðêre Rêne wêst. ðjus kâd vpward. alingen ðêre ôre síde ofward.

I don't know whether Adel and Jfkja went by land or by boat - and if they went to Aken at all. If they went to Aken and used boats, they may have sent some messengers to the burgh way beforehand. The burgh would then have sent their own horse equipage to the bank of the Rhine for bringing them safely to the burgh. This would also mean extra wêrar for protection.
They may even have sent their wêrar as an extra protection for Apollânja and her attendants.

fârt = Dutch vaart, boat trip OLB fara, butafarar.

A second question has not been put yet: the order of the lands mentioned.

1 - 4 seems to be clockwise : Eastflyland - Haga Fenna & Walda - Southflyland - Westflyland. Clockwise means: with the sun om like the yule wheel.

Edited by Knul, 08 March 2013 - 09:44 AM.