4013 replies to this topic

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 09 March 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

I think Goffe Jensma was right after all: it is about religion.

And I would like to add: racism.

Just read about what the Fryans thought about the Lydians and the Finda, the Africans and the Asians.

The Fryans thought they were the Übermensch, the superior people.

Why you think the Nazis loved this book so much?

,

He claimed, that the Frisian nation should be kept free from foreign influences, especially the German influence promoted by the Grimm brothers. Besides he opposed to totalitarian regimes. Halbertsma in his time was a socialist (or communist). His birth place Grouw was called the red village. He never regarded the Frisians as Übermenschen, but was devoted to his Frisian culture, language and religion. It is clear that the Nazi abused the book for their purposes.

Edited by Knul, 09 March 2013 - 11:34 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Knul, on 09 March 2013 - 10:44 PM, said:

Aken has no connection with the Fly river nor the Flevo lake, from where the Fly river jumps into the North Sea. It is just too far away from the Frisian homeland. I think Abrahamelins  Ocken-burg is a better  choice.

Why? They are returning from the upper Rhine.

OH I SEE: You are referring to this other mention apart from the Apollonia one.

Abêlo, Jaltia’s husband; Grevetman over the Zuiderflylanden. He was three times heerman. The towns Aken, Liudburg, and Katsburg are under his care.

Edited by The Puzzler, 10 March 2013 - 01:44 AM.

[Knul]

The Puzzler, on 10 March 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:

Why? They are returning from the upper Rhine.

OH I SEE: You are referring to this other mention apart from the Apollonia one.

Abêlo, Jaltia’s husband; Grevetman over the Zuiderflylanden. He was three times heerman. The towns Aken, Liudburg, and Katsburg are under his care.

The Rhine Aken is the same as the Southern-Flyland Aken.  Just look for an area in Frisia (not in Germany) with towns Aken, Liudburg, Katsburg, Buda and Mannagardafrda.  Let us say, within a circle of 100 miles from Medemblik and Stavoren.

Edited by Knul, 10 March 2013 - 02:13 AM.

[The Puzzler]

So, from Arnhem, you think they sailed up to the Zuiderzee? This was Lake Flevo and Staveren is part of the area.

This delta of it is where they came out? Rather than coming out the Rhine.  Up the Yssel. On this map: http://upload.wikime...nheirs-1748.jpg

Now what? You say the Aken on the Rhine (Aachen) is in the area of Southern Flyland...is this Zuiderflyland? and known as Sudar Flyland in the OLB. Or don't you mean Aken Aachen?

Abêlo, Jaltia’s husband; Grevetman over the Zuiderflylanden. He was three times heerman. The towns Aken, Liudburg, and Katsburg are under his care.

So? Aken on the Rhine IS IN HIS AREA?

Edited by The Puzzler, 10 March 2013 - 04:03 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 09 March 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

What we all should do is look at OLD maps of the Netherlands.

Maybe some Dutch city was once named very similar to "Aken".

I did, but I haven't found anything yet.

But I DID find BUDA, or "Beda", or Bitburg/Büdesheim, using these old maps.

Büdesheim... Buda's Heim.

I agree, Buda could be Bitburg.

The city’s name derives from its Celtic toponym, Beda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitburg

The Saxman Storo, Sytia’s husband; Grevetman over the Hoogefennen and Wouden. Nine times he was chosen as duke or heerman (commander). The towns Buda and Manna-garda-forda are under his care.

[The Puzzler]

Where was this Ockenburg Abe speaks of?

I found Hagenvorde nearby on that Ijssel route back to the Fly - could be Aken-vorde Aken-ford or something, the old map has a cross there, like a citadel was there. http://upload.wikime...nheirs-1748.jpg

But the Twisklanders had crossed the Rhine and so sounds as if they were near Aachen -  just coming into the lowlands, in the journey back from seeing the Marsaten.

Wijchen, where Batenburg is sounds somewhat like Aken. It's probably not on the right route but I have no idea where you guys are going quite frankly...

Edited by The Puzzler, 10 March 2013 - 04:43 AM.

[Knul]

The Puzzler, on 10 March 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

So, from Arnhem, you think they sailed up to the Zuiderzee? This was Lake Flevo and Staveren is part of the area.

This delta of it is where they came out? Rather than coming out the Rhine.  Up the Yssel. On this map: http://upload.wikime...nheirs-1748.jpg

Now what? You say the Aken on the Rhine (Aachen) is in the area of Southern Flyland...is this Zuiderflyland? and known as Sudar Flyland in the OLB. Or don't you mean Aken Aachen?

Abêlo, Jaltia’s husband; Grevetman over the Zuiderflylanden. He was three times heerman. The towns Aken, Liudburg, and Katsburg are under his care.

So? Aken on the Rhine IS IN HIS AREA?

The Puzzler, on 10 March 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

So, from Arnhem, you think they sailed up to the Zuiderzee? This was Lake Flevo and Staveren is part of the area.

This delta of it is where they came out? Rather than coming out the Rhine.  Up the Yssel. On this map: http://upload.wikime...nheirs-1748.jpg

Now what? You say the Aken on the Rhine (Aachen) is in the area of Southern Flyland...is this Zuiderflyland? and known as Sudar Flyland in the OLB. Or don't you mean Aken Aachen?

Abêlo, Jaltia’s husband; Grevetman over the Zuiderflylanden. He was three times heerman. The towns Aken, Liudburg, and Katsburg are under his care.

So? Aken on the Rhine IS IN HIS AREA?

That is not the right direction. They followed the Rhine untill the mouth at Leyden [Lydasburg] and from there north to Westflyland.  Your idea is right, but the theory is, dat only in Roman times the Rhine and IJssel were connected by a Drusus-canal. This proofs that it was a boat-trip.

[gestur]

Abramelin, on 09 March 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

I think Goffe Jensma was right after all: it is about religion.

And I would like to add: racism.

I agree, but it is a sort of racism that wants to live in peace with the other races in the end.

Page 141, line 1:

THA FORSTA THÉR WÉRHÉD MINNA ÀND RJUCHT
THAM SKILUN FON THA PRESTERA WIKA.
BLOD SKIL STRÁMA.
MEN THÉRUT SKILET FOLK NYE KRÀFTA GÁRA.
FINDA.S FOLK SKIL SINA FINDINGRIKHÉD TO MÉMA NITHA WENDA.
THÀT LYDA.S FOLK SINA KRÀFTA
ÀND WI VSA WISDOM.
THA SKILUN THA FALXA PRESTERA WÉI FÁGATH WERTHA FON JRTHA.

Sandbach (1876):

The princes who love the truth and justice
shall separate themselves from the priests;
blood shall flow,
but from it the people will gather new strength.
Finda's folk shall contribute their industry to the common good,
Linda's folk their strength,
and we our wisdom.
Then the false priests shall be swept away from the earth.

[gestur]

They did not hate the other races, but yes they saw them as different.
In that sense, they discriminated.

What they hated were the false and foul priesthoods, and the princes that collaborated with them in using the people as their slaves.

Hence the importance of the word FRYA in OLB which means free.

[gestur]

gestur, on 10 March 2013 - 06:16 AM, said:

They did not hate the other races, but yes they saw them as different.
In that sense, they discriminated.

It especially annoys me when racists are accused of 'discrimination.'
The ability to discriminate is a precious facility;
by judging all members of one 'race' to be the same,
the racist precisely shows himself incapable of discrimination.

Christopher Hitchens

[The Puzzler]

Knul, on 10 March 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

That is not the right direction. They followed the Rhine untill the mouth at Leyden [Lydasburg] and from there north to Westflyland.  Your idea is right, but the theory is, dat only in Roman times the Rhine and IJssel were connected by a Drusus-canal. This proofs that it was a boat-trip.

OK, I've spent the afternoon studying maps in the area, sorry I am not as familiar with them as you guys. I've got more information on them now.

I see the Oude Rhine, that comes out at Katwjik, past Leyden.

So they went up the Waal, from Wallahallagara/ entrance near Dordrecht - it goes past Tiel and joins the main Rhine at Emmerich, then head up past Bonn to the headwaters.

Then BACK - they come down towards the German Plain at Bonn, this is the beginning of the lowlands, pass Aachen 60km to the West of the Rhine, not exactly passing it directly but 'about' where it was - they then head back up the Old Rhine section past Leiden and out at Katwijk aan Zee (on my modern atlas map) - then head along the coast up to the Fly entrance (near Texel) past the Waraburgt to Alderga.

Also:
Abêlo, Jaltia’s husband; Grevetman over the Zuiderflylanden. He was three times heerman. The towns Aken, Liudburg, and Katsburg are under his care.

The whole area of the South Flyland (southern area of Zuiderzee)was Abelos juristiction - it included Aken, Luidberg  (Leiden) and Katsburg - you think Katsburg is Katwjik?

[Knul]

The Puzzler, on 10 March 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

OK, I've spent the afternoon studying maps in the area, sorry I am not as familiar with them as you guys. I've got more information on them now.

I see the Oude Rhine, that comes out at Katwjik, past Leyden.

So they went up the Waal, from Wallahallagara/ entrance near Dordrecht - it goes past Tiel and joins the main Rhine at Emmerich, then head up past Bonn to the headwaters.

Then BACK - they come down towards the German Plain at Bonn, this is the beginning of the lowlands, pass Aachen 60km to the West of the Rhine, not exactly passing it directly but 'about' where it was - they then head back up the Old Rhine section past Leiden and out at Katwijk aan Zee (on my modern atlas map) - then head along the coast up to the Fly entrance (near Texel) past the Waraburgt to Alderga.

Also:
Abêlo, Jaltia’s husband; Grevetman over the Zuiderflylanden. He was three times heerman. The towns Aken, Liudburg, and Katsburg are under his care.

The whole area of the South Flyland (southern area of Zuiderzee)was Abelos juristiction - it included Aken, Luidberg  (Leiden) and Katsburg - you think Katsburg is Katwjik?

Well done Puzzler. Just a minor detail you could not know: The Old Rhine at Katwijk was blocked by sand dunes. So, on the way down to the Rhine they traveled as far as Walhallagara and from there to the lower Rhine, called Waal. Similarly on the way back they could not leave the Rhine at Katwijk because of the sand dunes, but had to travel on inland waterways to the north. So they did not get to the Fly mouth, but to Forana (Vroonen, which is a lost city near Alkmarum-Alkmaar) and from there to Medeasblik (Medemblik) and crossing the Fly river to Stavere (Stavoren).

Well, at Katwijk was an old castle Brittenburg. This castle has disappeared, whether in sea or under the sand dunes. See my website: http://www.rodinbook...rittenburg.html .

In Leyden (where passes the Old Rhine) there is an old castle too, which still exists. s. http://nl.wikipedia....rcht_van_Leiden . In OLB Leyden is called Ljudburg, but is also indicated as Lyda's burg because of the black rowers, that live there. As the Old Rhine was blocked by sand dunes at Katwijk they could no more reach the sea and stayed in the place. By the way, the same happened at Alkmarum, where the former river Hegge was blocked by sand dunes at Egmond (Hegge mouth). There too the black rowers could not return to sea and stayed there.

Now we discuss here, if the third castle Aken is in the same area of Katwijk and Leyden or all the way down to the Rhine area in Germany. Both Abramelin and me think of Ocken-burg, where in Roman times existed a strenghold like the one at Katwijk (Brittenburg). In 1650 they built a new castle or house at Ockenburg, but that castle or house has been broken down. Now it is a golfer's place. Anyway Ocken-burg in Southern Flyland is a good alternative for Aachen in Germany. By the way from the above story you see that they traveled by boat over rivers and inland waterways.

As OLB speaks of pre-Roman times, the three canals that Drusus digged did not yet exist. One canal connected the middle Rhine at Leyden with the Helinium at Rotterdam, the second canal connected the Rhine with the IJssel and (according to Ottema) a third canal connected the IJssel with the Flie river as is indicated on his map).

Edited by Knul, 10 March 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[Abramelin]

"Vroonen, which is a lost city near Alkmarum-Alkmaar"

It isn't lost at all:

Sint-Pancras, dat vroeger Vroonen heette
St. Pancras, formerly called Vroonen

http://www.westfries...jk_historie.php

[Abramelin]

Ockenburg is not from Roman times but maybe from the 14th century:

Abramelin, on 28 February 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Ockenburg instead of Aken is indeed better, and it's perhaps much older than initially thought:


This is about the German Aachen:

De naam is afkomstig van van het Latijnse Aquisgranum dat in het Oudgermaanse Ahha werd. Aken heet in het Duits: Aachen, in het Frans Aix-la-Chapelle, in het Limburgs Aoke/Oche en in het Luxemburgs Oochen.

The name comes from the Latin Aquisgranum which became Ahha in Old Germanic. Aken is called Aachen in German, in French Aix-la-Chapelle, in the dialect of the province of Limburg Aoke/Oche and in Luxembourgish Oochen.

http://nl.wikipedia....iki/Aken_(stad)



http://en.wikipedia....acob_Westerbaen
http://www.haagsepoe...-en-ockenburgh/




Waar de naam Ockenburgh vandaan komt is niet bekend. Sommige bronnen spreken van een landgoed "Ockenberghe" dat in de 15e eeuw in de buurt van Wateringen zou hebben gelegen, maar aan het begin van de 80 jarige oorlog is ontruimd.

Het huidige Landgoed Ockenburg is omstreeks 1650 aangelegd in opdracht van de dichter en medicus Jacob Westerbaen. Wegen en groen werden in Classicistische landschapsstijl ontworpen. Het is goed mogelijk dat Westerbaen de naam van het verdwenen landgoed heeft overgenomen.

Na de dood van Westerbaen kwam Ockenburgh in handen van Maarten Pauw, bewindhebber van de V.O.C. en burgemeester van Delft. Zijn kleinkinderen lieten het Kleyne Paleis omstreeks 1720 afbreken en een nieuw landhuis bouwen. Dat landhuis bestaat nog steeds. Het is in 1845   verbouwd in (laat) Neo-Classicistische stijl en in die vorm is het tot op heden bewaard gebleven.

-

Where the name Ockenburgh comes from is not known. Some sources speak of an estate "Ockenberghe" in the 15th century that would have been near Wateringen, but was cleared at the beginning of the 80 years war.

The current Estate Ockenburg was built in 1650 by order of the poet and physician Jacob Westerbaen. Roads and greenery were in classicist style landscape design. It is possible that Westerbaen took over the name of the disappeared estate.

After the death of Westerbaen Ockenburgh came into the hands of Martin Peacock, governor of the Dutch United East India Company and Mayor of Delft. Around 1720 his grandchildren had the Kleyne Paleis (Small Palace) demolished and had a new house built. This house still exists. It was rebuilt in 1845 in the (late) Neo-Classicist style and in that form it is preserved to this day.

http://historie.hdpnet.nl/ock.htm


This "Ockenberghe" must have existed in the 14th century:

Dieric van Ockenberghe - 1329
http://www.historici...oorkonde/NH_406

Coat of Arms:
http://www.heraldica...ockenberghe.htm

Translated:
http://translate.goo...ockenberghe.htm

http://www.benwilbri...ogie/hoeven.htm


http://bugs.ptenb.nl...et-landgoed.php


.

Edited by Abramelin, 10 March 2013 - 06:21 PM.

[Abramelin]

About where Aldland was located and when it was destroyed:

Ottema assumed that Aldland went down during the Cimbrian Flood, and he thought that was in 2194 BCE.

He also said that a large stretch of land extended west of Denmark, across the North Sea.

He was right, but that was thousands of years before the 2194 BCE event described in the OLB.

Doggerland got catastrophically flooded around 6150 BCE (a tsunami that lasted for maybe 2 days), and all that was left after that was Dogger Island, the later Doggers Bank.

Dogger Island existed until 5000 BCE.

What never fails to amaze me is that Overwijn (the third Dutch translator of the OLB, after Ottema and Wirth) assumed a date of 6250 BCE for the submergence of Doggerland.

He guessed it or what?? Radiocarbon dating didn't even exist back then, or when he wrote his book about the OLB, it was still in its infancy.