4027 replies to this topic

[gestur]

Abramelin, on 14 March 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

Not at all, but if *I* quote that, Knul will start yelling again.

OK
Good wordplay btw.

Quote

The Judes Land ("Thjudisland")

And for those who don't get it:
THJUDISLAND would have been the OLB word for both Deutschland (Germany) and Dietsland (Netherlands + Flanders or Dutchland).

Edited by gestur, 14 March 2013 - 09:51 PM.

[Abramelin]

gestur, on 14 March 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

OK
Good wordplay btw.

And for those who don't get it:

THJUDISLAND would have been the OLB word for both Deutschland (Germany) and Dietsland (Netherlands + Flanders or Dutchland).

No, it's Twiskland in the OLB.

In Scandinavia it's still called Tyskland: http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyskland

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 14 March 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

That's Frisian territory in the early Middle Ages.

But we - you and me - should also take notice of Frisian legends and reports about Frisian colonies, the ones used by those who created the OLB.

And then we get Frisian colonies in Mainz and Switzerland, and even the Friesische Haft (Poland), and all the connections with Britain and Ireland I have posted about.

I have also posted about how much the Frisians influenced trade in medieval Europe, how much they influenced the later Vikings and how much they had an influence during the Crusades. I could go on for hours like this, but I am not willing to refresh your memory again and again and again.

If you want to create a hoax, you'll have to know your sources, and be very creative.

The ones who wrote the OLB were creative, but it is apparent you lack their creativity.

.

Apparently you did not understand, that the Frisian grietenijen should be in Frisia, not beyond the red line.

[Abramelin]

I do understand you don't know the next thing about creating a hoax,

[Apol]

Knul, on 14 March 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

Did you see the place Butjadingen on your map, Knul - at the mouth of Weser?
A budingun is said to be a 'thing'.
What about this as the site for the burgh of Bvda?

[Knul]

Apol, on 15 March 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Did you see the place Butjadingen on your map, Knul - at the mouth of Weser?
A budingun is said to be a 'thing'.
What about this as the site for the burgh of Bvda?

A good way to look at that problem, but if you take the lined area for Astflyland, then the Haga Fenna and Walda should be in the white (Saxon) area above the red line. That area is called Bornego. s. http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bornego
Apart from the holy wood Baduhenna  I did not find anything similar to Buda. Badu-henna = Badu Fenna ? Buda has been identified as Buiten-post, but no one believed that. s.http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buitenpost .

A possibility, which comes close, is the origin of Bant, Bantega situated in the Kuinder wood. The new Bant is rebuilt in the Noordoostpolder, but got its name from the old Bant, Bantega in  Lemsterland, which existed till 1700, when it was overflooded..  Bante-ga indicates a gouw=ga like Alder-ga = Oude Gouw. s. http://www.plaatsengids.nl/bant . Lemsterland is the area around Lemmer and is part of Stellingwerf. The area was Niedersaksisch, divided from Westergo by the Tjonger river as I have indicated earlier. Bant could have been one of the three castles at Kuinder.

Edited by Knul, 15 March 2013 - 01:35 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Its name is derived from Low German "buten" (=outside) and "Jade" and thus means the lands on the other side of the Jade river
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Butjadingen

bùta:

b-ðt-a

70, afries., Präp.: nhd. außer, außerhalb, ohne; ne. except (Präp.), but

(Präp.), without (Präp.); Q.: extrõ AB (82, 8), sine K 4, L 12 L 2, AB (84, 5);

Vw.: s. a-; Hw.: s. bot-a; vgl. ae. bðtan, as. biðtan, ahd. biðzan, mnl. buten; Q.: F,

E, S, B, H, R, W, AB (82, 8), AB (84, 5), K 4, L 12, L 2; E.: s. bi-, ðt-a; W.:

nfries. buwtte; W.: saterl. buta; L.: Hh 13b, Rh 676a

[Apol]

Knul, on 15 March 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

A good way to look at that problem, but if you take the lined area for Astflyland, then the Haga Fenna and Walda should be in the white (Saxon) area above the red line. That area is called Bornego. s. http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bornego
Apart from the holy wood Baduhenna  I did not find anything similar to Buda. Badu-henna = Badu Fenna ? Buda has been identified as Buiten-post, but no one believed that. s.http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buitenpost .

A possibility, which comes close, is the origin of Bant, Bantega situated in the Kuinder wood. The new Bant is rebuilt in the Noordoostpolder, but got its name from the old Bant, Bantega in  Lemsterland, which existed till 1700, when it was overflooded..  Bante-ga indicates a gouw=ga like Alder-ga = Oude Gouw. s. http://www.plaatsengids.nl/bant . Lemsterland is the area around Lemmer and is part of Stellingwerf. The area was Niedersaksisch, divided from Westergo by the Tjonger river as I have indicated earlier. Bant could have been one of the three castles at Kuinder.

I don't understand your red line logic.

Isn't Bant quite remote from Bvda linguistically? And where should the burgh of Lindahêm have been situated if Bvda was in Kuinre, or in that area?

I regard the Baduhennawood as not being a real name, but a name put to the wood by the Romans because they didnt know any name for it. They saw a depiction of the goddess Baduhenna there, and just called it "the Baduhennawood".

[The Puzzler]

In the OLB Buda the town is written as Bvda and Buda/Jessos is written as Bûda.

I'm wondering if these words are different and therefore might have different meanings - Bvda might not be purse just because Bûda means it. bûda is budel, purse, but maybe Bvda is not the same.

Maybe Bvda IS bûta (like Butjadingen - out) based, rather than purse based....

I have not checked the original text though, that was from the transliteration.

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 March 2013 - 04:22 AM.

[gestur]

Abramelin, on 14 March 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

No, it's Twiskland in the OLB.
In Scandinavia it's still called Tyskland

I know that Germany is called Tyskland in Scandinavia.
Otharus pointed that out in august 2011.
fryskednis.blogspot.com/twiskland-deutschland
In Finnish it is called Saksa, in English, Italian, Greek and Russia varieties of Germania, in French and Iberian varieties of Allemania.



But in German and Dutch it is Deutschland/ Duitsland, which is derived from THJUD = folk, people AND duiden/ deuten (explain, interpret).
See (mostly in Dutch): fryskednis.blogspot.com/neder-holland

Quote

OLB fragmenten

[002/20] Adela's Rede
THÉR HÉRDON HJA MITH LUSTUM NÉI THA VRDWÁLSKA FINNA SÁGUM.
THRVCHDAM HJA THJVD ÀND NÉI WÉRON.
SÁ SEND HJA VNT.FRYAST VNTHONKES THENE WALD HJARAR ALDRUM
[O+S p.7]
Daar hoorden zij met welgevallen [:lusten] naar de losbandige [:overdwaalse] sagen der Finnen,
omdat die slecht [? duidelijk, verklarend] en nieuw waren.
Zoo zijn zij ontfriesd ondanks de macht hunner ouders.
{N.B. indien THJVD hier slecht betekent - zoals in Nyfrysk -, hoort middelste regel bij laatste, niet bij eerste regel!}
There they learned with pleasure the loose ways of the Finns,
because they were bad [illustrative, explainable?] and new;
and thus they became denationalised in spite of the efforts of their parents.
{note: if THJVD has a negative meaning, like in newfrisian, the 2nd line belongs to the third}

[013/18] Tex Frya's
THÀN SKILUN J HJA HJRA DVMHÉD BITJVTHA
[O+S p.23]
dan zult gij haar hare dwaasheid beduiden
explain to her her folly

[039/20] Minno's Skrifta
THA FORSTA ÀND PRESTERA KÉMON BÁRJA THAT WI HJARA TJVTH OVER HÉRICH MAKAD HÉDE
ÀND THÀT FOLK KÉM TO VS VMBE HUL ÀND SKUL
[O+S p.57]
De vorsten en priesteren kwamen en gaven voor dat wij hunne onderdanen oproerig gemaakt hadden,
en het volk kwam tot ons om heul en schut te vragen.
The priests and the princes declared that we had excited their subjects to rebellion,
and the people appealed to us for aid and protection.

[097/10] Burchfám's Love
THA FÉRHÉMANDA HÉRA KÉMON HJARA THJUD ASKJA
[O+S p.135]
De uitheemsche heeren kwamen hunne lieden opeischen;
The foreign lords came to look after their people,

[101/27] Andere deel Formleer
THISSA SÉKA MOTON KLÁR ÀND BÁR MÁKAD WRDA BY ALLE WISA.
SÁ HÀT HJAT ANOTHERA BITHJUTA ÀND BIWISA MÜGE
[O+S p.141]
Deze zaken moeten klaar en openbaar gemaakt worden op alle wijzen,
zoodat zij het aan anderen mogen beduiden en bewijzen.
These things must be made clear and manifest in every way,
so that they can be made clear and comprehensible to all.

[104/32] Taal en antwoord
BIFVNDEN HÀVANDE HO SÉR THET DVATH VMB.ALLÉNA TO TOBBANDE
ALSA BITHJUDE HIU HIRA BERN HO AND HWÉRVMBE HJU ALSA HÉDE DÉN
[O+S p.145]
Bevonden hebbende hoe zeer het doet, om alleen te tobben,
zoo beduidde zij hare kinderen, hoe en waarom zij zoo gedaan had.
Having found how hard it is to toil alone,
she showed her children how and why she had done it.

[113/12] Apollánja's Fárt
WI NE SKILUN NÉN BIHOF LONGER NAVT NÀVE AN THÀT WLA THJUD
[O+S p.155]
wij zullen geen behoefte langer hebben aan dat vuile volk.
we shall have no occasion to deal with those nasty people.

BTW, we don't know if OLB's TWISKLAND exactly overlaps the nowaday (or 19th century) 'Tyskland'.
It will partly have been around there, but it may have stretched further eastwards.

.

Our demonstratives are derived from THJUD.

THJUS AGATH WRALDA.S GAST
Deze komt Wralda's geest toe.
That is for Wralda’s ghost only.
(Tex fryas, OLB page 12)

this, that --- english
deze, dit, die, dat --- dutch
dies, das --- german

=>> duidwoorden, Deutwörter (demonstratives)

Edited by gestur, 15 March 2013 - 06:41 AM.

[Knul]

Apol, on 15 March 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

I don't understand your red line logic.

Isn't Bant quite remote from Bvda linguistically? And where should the burgh of Lindahêm have been situated if Bvda was in Kuinre, or in that area?

I regard the Baduhennawood as not being a real name, but a name put to the wood by the Romans because they didnt know any name for it. They saw a depiction of the goddess Baduhenna there, and just called it "the Baduhennawood".

The red line connects the mouth of the Weser and the mouth of the Schelde, the borders of the Frisian reign as described in the OLB.

Lindahem might be Wolvega and Lindawrda  the area around Wolvega.

Bant has been proposed as an option to investigate, not as a solution to the problem.

[gestur]

Abramelin, on 14 March 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

That's Frisian territory in the early Middle Ages.

The map "Die Friesen" that Kul posted is a fiction.
The line through North-Holland and Utrecht is too much west and the line through Friesland and Groningen is too much north.

[The Puzzler]

gestur, on 15 March 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

I know that Germany is called Tyskland in Scandinavia.
Otharus pointed that out in august 2011.
fryskednis.blogspot.com/twiskland-deutschland
In Finnish it is called Saksa, in English, Italian, Greek and Russia varieties of Germania, in French and Iberian varieties of Allemania.



But in German and Dutch it is Deutschland/ Duitsland, which is derived from THJUD = folk, people AND duiden/ deuten (explain, interpret).
See (mostly in Dutch): fryskednis.blogspot.com/neder-holland



BTW, we don't know if OLB's TWISKLAND exactly overlaps the nowaday (or 19th century) 'Tyskland'.
It will partly have been around there, but it may have stretched further eastwards.

.

I agree Tysk is from thjud.

Ordet tysk stammer fra det gammelhøjtyske theodisk,diutisk, der er afledt af det oldgermanske theoda "folk" i betydningen "talende folkesproget", i modsætning til latin, der brugtes af gejstlige og lærde.
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyskland

But I do not think Twiskland is a form of Tyskland, if we go with the OLB it says:

The other tribe, that wandered about in the neighbourhood, called themselves Franks, not because they were free, but the name of their first king was Frank, who, by the help of the degenerate maidens, had had himself made hereditary king over his people. The people nearest to him called themselves Thioth-his sons—that is, sons of the people. They had remained free, because they never would acknowledge any king, or prince, or master except those chosen by general consent in a general assembly. Askar had already learned from Reintja that the Twisklander princes were almost always at war with each other.


Thioth - his sons of the people - this imo is the beginning of Tysk/thjud/teut etc etc for Germans and Germany - not as Twiskland, an older area that probably WAS in the area of Germany. Basically Twisklanders became Tysklanders because of Thioth as thjud not from any change in the name Twisklanders through etymology to Tysk.

I can't find it just now, it's late, my eyes are tired but there is a sentence in the OLB that starts: "Betwisk..." and continues on with twisk again in it for between, about mountains. Twisk is definitely between.
OK, I found it: Bitwiska tha fêrum a^end heinda Krêkalandum fand Jon svma êlanda thêr im likte, vppet grâteste gvng-er inna tha walda twisk tha^et berchta en burch bvwa.


If anything, it starts to sound like Swiss...
twi-s-k

34, twi-s-k-a, afries., Präp.: nhd. zwischen; ne. between; Vw.: s. a-, bi-*,

en-, on-; Hw.: vgl. ahd. zwiskÐn*; Q.: R, B, E, H, W, S; E.: germ. *twisko, Präp.,

zwischen; s. idg. *døis, Adv., zweimal, entzwei, Pokorny 230; vgl. idg. *døæu,

*døai, Num. Kard. (M.), zwei, Pokorny 228; W.: nfries. twissche, Präp., zwischen;

W.: saterl. twisce, Präp., zwischen;

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 March 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Thêra tham saton biâsten tha Dênemarka wrdon Juttar hêton, uthâvede hja tomet navt owers ne dêdon as barn-stên juta.

Unless there's Jews in Jutland and they are the Juttar who hunt for amber - I'd go this word might be 'jagia'. I am unsure though if juTa can go to jaGia.

jag-ia

1 und häufiger?, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. jagen; ne. hunt

juth-a

, afries., sw. M. (n): Vw.: s. joth-a

joth-a

1 und häufiger?, juth-a*, jud-a, jod-a, jud-e, jod-e, afries., sw. M. (n): nhd.

Jude; ne. Jew;

jod-a

, afries., sw. M. (n): Vw.: s. joth-a

jod-e

, afries., sw. M. (n): Vw.: s. joth-a

With all these Godasburgs, Gotlands and associated names it always has me wondering. Did someone say Judesland?

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 March 2013 - 01:46 PM.

[Apol]

Quote

OLB fragmenten

[002/20] Adela's Rede
THÉR HÉRDON HJA MITH LUSTUM NÉI THA VRDWÁLSKA FINNA SÁGUM.
THRVCHDAM HJA THJVD ÀND NÉI WÉRON.
SÁ SEND HJA VNT.FRYAST VNTHONKES THENE WALD HJARAR ALDRUM
[O+S p.7]
Daar hoorden zij met welgevallen [:lusten] naar de losbandige [:overdwaalse] sagen der Finnen,
omdat die slecht [? duidelijk, verklarend] en nieuw waren.
Zoo zijn zij ontfriesd ondanks de macht hunner ouders.
{N.B. indien THJVD hier slecht betekent - zoals in Nyfrysk -, hoort middelste regel bij laatste, niet bij eerste regel!}
There they learned with pleasure the loose ways of the Finns,
because they were bad [illustrative, explainable?] and new;
and thus they became denationalised in spite of the efforts of their parents.
{note: if THJVD has a negative meaning, like in newfrisian, the 2nd line belongs to the third}

[013/18] Tex Frya's
THÀN SKILUN J HJA HJRA DVMHÉD BITJVTHA
[O+S p.23]
dan zult gij haar hare dwaasheid beduiden
explain to her her folly

[039/20] Minno's Skrifta
THA FORSTA ÀND PRESTERA KÉMON BÁRJA THAT WI HJARA TJVTH OVER HÉRICH MAKAD HÉDE
ÀND THÀT FOLK KÉM TO VS VMBE HUL ÀND SKUL
[O+S p.57]
De vorsten en priesteren kwamen en gaven voor dat wij hunne onderdanen oproerig gemaakt hadden,
en het volk kwam tot ons om heul en schut te vragen.
The priests and the princes declared that we had excited their subjects to rebellion,
and the people appealed to us for aid and protection.

[097/10] Burchfám's Love
THA FÉRHÉMANDA HÉRA KÉMON HJARA THJUD ASKJA
[O+S p.135]
De uitheemsche heeren kwamen hunne lieden opeischen;
The foreign lords came to look after their people,

[101/27] Andere deel Formleer
THISSA SÉKA MOTON KLÁR ÀND BÁR MÁKAD WRDA BY ALLE WISA.
SÁ HÀT HJAT ANOTHERA BITHJUTA ÀND BIWISA MÜGE
[O+S p.141]
Deze zaken moeten klaar en openbaar gemaakt worden op alle wijzen,
zoodat zij het aan anderen mogen beduiden en bewijzen.
These things must be made clear and manifest in every way,
so that they can be made clear and comprehensible to all.

[104/32] Taal en antwoord
BIFVNDEN HÀVANDE HO SÉR THET DVATH VMB.ALLÉNA TO TOBBANDE
ALSA BITHJUDE HIU HIRA BERN HO AND HWÉRVMBE HJU ALSA HÉDE DÉN
[O+S p.145]
Bevonden hebbende hoe zeer het doet, om alleen te tobben,
zoo beduidde zij hare kinderen, hoe en waarom zij zoo gedaan had.
Having found how hard it is to toil alone,
she showed her children how and why she had done it.

[113/12] Apollánja's Fárt
WI NE SKILUN NÉN BIHOF LONGER NAVT NÀVE AN THÀT WLA THJUD
[O+S p.155]
wij zullen geen behoefte langer hebben aan dat vuile volk.
we shall have no occasion to deal with those nasty people.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In fact, this is an interesting obseration.

You have the word Tjoð (52/20), Tjvð (39/22) or Ðjud (97/11, 113/14) - which means 'subjects'.
You have the word Tjod (204/22, 205/19) or Ðjvd (2/20) - which means 'nasty', 'foul', 'bad'.
And you have also the word Tsjod.ishêd (159/17) - which means 'foolishness' or 'folly'.

In the Christian tradition we say about something evil that it is not 'human'.
It seems like the ancient Frisians said about something evil or stupid that it is "human" (Tjoð).

I doubt, though, that the word biðjuta, biðjod, biðjude is of the same etymology, but I'm not sure about it.

Edited by Apol, 15 March 2013 - 02:21 PM.