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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#2911    Knul

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 03:52 PM

View PostApol, on 17 March 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

There are a lot of candidates for Bvda if one shall look at the name only:


The densest concentration of Büde-, Bode-, Bude- names is in the Bingen area of Rheinland-Pfalz


However, which of these Buda''s or Boden's belongs to the Frisian grieteny called Haga Fenna and Walda, listed between Eastflyland and Southflyland ? West-Flyland + Texel contains ca. 1000km2, East-Flyland ca. 5.800 km2, Zeeland 3.000 km2. Your area of Haga Fenna and Walda + Southflyland ca. 180.000 km2.  Rather disproportionate, I think. The whole of the Frisian area was ca. 16.000 km2.

Edited by Knul, 17 March 2013 - 04:01 PM.


#2912    Abramelin

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 04:21 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 14 March 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

No, this is what the OLB tells us:

These are the Grevetmen under whose direction this book is composed:—

Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Eastflyland ON THE OTHER SIDE OF ("ovir-a") the Lindaoords. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

The Saxman Storo, Sytia’s husband; Grevetman over the High Fenns and Woods. Nine times he was chosen as duke or heerman. The towns Buda and Manna-garda-forda are under his care.

Abêlo, Jaltia’s husband; Grevetman over the South Flylands. He was three times heerman. The towns Aken, Liudburg, and Katsburg are under his care.

Enoch, Dywcke’s husband; Grevetman over Westflyland and Texel. He was chosen nine times for sea-king. Waraburg, Medeasblik, Forana, and Fryasburg are under his care.

Foppe, Dunros' husband; Grevetman over the Seven islands. He was five times sea-king. The town Walhallagara is under his care.



It never says in that area.

Yes, I am not crazy, I know that is how one should maybe interpret it, but that is not what it has to mean.

And look at how I translated the part of Apol, Adela's husband; I wonder how you would translate "ovir-a".

.

Apol, Adelas man, Thria iser sêkening wêsen, nw is-er grêvetman over Ast-flylând aend ovir-a Linda-wrda. Tha bvrga Ljvdgârda, Lindahêm, aend Stâvja send vnder sin hod.

Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Eastflyland ON THE OTHER SIDE OF ("ovir-a") the Lindaoords. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

OK, that was wrong: it's simply "grevetman of Ast-flylând AND OF the Linda-wrda".


#2913    Apol

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 04:31 PM

Frans Burman: Eenige Nieuwe Aenmerkingen, page 31:
BOUD. Men zegt boudspreeken voor stout, onbeschroomd spreeken, en het wordt veel gezegd van die geene die hoog opheffen en laeg lacten vallen: dit komt van het oud Fransch woord Baud, welk vrolyk beteekende, en ook stout en onversaegd. Froissart Liv. III. ch. 72. p. 192.


#2914    Apol

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 04:36 PM

View PostKnul, on 17 March 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

However, which of these Buda''s or Boden's belongs to the Frisian grieteny called Haga Fenna and Walda, listed between Eastflyland and Southflyland ? West-Flyland + Texel contains ca. 1000km2, East-Flyland ca. 5.800 km2, Zeeland 3.000 km2. Your area of Haga Fenna and Walda + Southflyland ca. 180.000 km2.  Rather disproportionate, I think. The whole of the Frisian area was ca. 16.000 km2.

I ask again:
Why should Apollânja go all the way to the Bodensee while travelling through the Land?
I would suppose that the Land means Fryaslând.

Edited by Apol, 17 March 2013 - 04:40 PM.


#2915    Knul

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 04:43 PM

View PostApol, on 17 March 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

I ask again:
Why should Apollânja go all the way to the Bodensee while travelling through the Land?

Because the Frisians owned the Rhine and adjacent land, but this ownership did not belong to one grieteny in particular, but to all of the grietenies together. Similarly the colonies in Denmark, England and in the Mediterranean belonged to the Frisian state (so to say).
MS47-49: 4. . Tha owira thissar rin strama wrdon tomet algadur thrvch vs folk bisêton , ak tha fjelda an thju Rêne fon t êna enda alon et ôre ende thâ .

Edited by Knul, 17 March 2013 - 04:47 PM.


#2916    Abramelin

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 05:35 PM

Apol, I'd really like to know where you think the OLB "Lumka-makia" is located.

Knul thought it was Helgoland (or one of its cliffs), I thought it might be Lemster in Friesland.

Of all the place names mentioned in the OLB, this one is most difficult to locate.

We have discussed this many pages on end (part -1-) but I don't think we were able to pin it down.

+++

EDIT:

Four old posts of mine from part -1- :

http://www.unexplain...95#entry4175716

http://www.unexplain...10#entry4175853

http://www.unexplain...10#entry4175934

http://www.unexplain...50#entry4159651
.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 March 2013 - 05:51 PM.


#2917    Knul

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:10 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 March 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Apol, I'd really like to know where you think the OLB "Lumka-makia" is located.

Knul thought it was Helgoland (or one of its cliffs), I thought it might be Lemster in Friesland.

Of all the place names mentioned in the OLB, this one is most difficult to locate.

We have discussed this many pages on end (part -1-) but I don't think we were able to pin it down.

+++

EDIT:

Four old posts of mine from part -1- :

http://www.unexplain...95#entry4175716

http://www.unexplain...10#entry4175853

http://www.unexplain...10#entry4175934

http://www.unexplain...50#entry4159651
.

You explained Lumkamakia=Lemster because you supposed the E-mude in that regio instead of E-mude at Embden. We discussed the rivers Linde and Tjonger in that area, not a supposed river Ee. Maybe Apol can find the birthplace of Wodin / Wodan / Odin in North mythology. I only know that Wodin was honoured on Helgoland, but Helgoland is not exactly the E-mude at Embden.

Edited by Knul, 17 March 2013 - 11:18 PM.


#2918    Apol

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:50 AM

View PostKnul, on 17 March 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

You explained Lumkamakia=Lemster because you supposed the E-mude in that regio instead of E-mude at Embden. We discussed the rivers Linde and Tjonger in that area, not a supposed river Ee. Maybe Apol can find the birthplace of Wodin / Wodan / Odin in North mythology. I only know that Wodin was honoured on Helgoland, but Helgoland is not exactly the E-mude at Embden.

Guess I haven't any startling new ideas to put forward. My opinion is that Lumkamâkja was in or near Emden. If Âst-Flílând stretched all the way to Weser at that time, it may have been in Emden. If it stretched only to Ems, it may have been in Westeremden, which is situated at the eastern side of the river mouth, barely 10 km west of Delfzijl. This area was settled far back in time. The dolmen (hunebed) of ca. 3400 BC which was found in Heveskesklooster near Delfzijl attests to that:

Posted Image

Westeremden was variously called Emutha, Emetha, Amuthon, Emethe and Emedun anciently. The prefix Wester- was added at a later time to separate the place from Emden. It has been named Westeremden since AD 1379. One knows that Emden has existed since the 8th century AD, and that it at this early stage was a small settlement on a werf. But Westeremden is also an ancient site, though the oldest written evidence for its existence is from AD 944. Gozewijn Acker Stratingh et al (1869) writes that one will have it that the village of Westeremden is the ancient harbour and market place of Amisia (lit. "Emsia") which Ptolemy mentions in his Geography (2:10). They write that what is certain, is that Westeremden was a foremost, prospering place in ancient times. But it lost its former prosperity completely as a result of catastrophes of different sorts, and that it through the growth of Emden on the other side of Ems as a reward now must be content with calling itself Westeremden.

I know that the site of Lutkemūte on Jacob van Deventer’s map of Groningen (1558) once was mentioned as a possible site for Lumkamâkja at this blog. I had detected the same place myself and made the same thoughts. I dont know.

Posted Image

Lutkemūte was a terp near Baamsum in the present village of Termunten, which on this map is named Grote Mute. The name possibly means 'Little Mute'.

Edited by Apol, 18 March 2013 - 01:01 AM.


#2919    Abramelin

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:41 AM

View PostKnul, on 17 March 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

You explained Lumkamakia=Lemster because you supposed the E-mude in that regio instead of E-mude at Embden. We discussed the rivers Linde and Tjonger in that area, not a supposed river Ee. Maybe Apol can find the birthplace of Wodin / Wodan / Odin in North mythology. I only know that Wodin was honoured on Helgoland, but Helgoland is not exactly the E-mude at Embden.

I already posted about Odin's birthplace : it's Odense in Denmark.

And there WAS a little river Ee near Lemster. It's gone now, but you can still find it on ancient maps.

AND we did discuss it.


#2920    Abramelin

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:47 AM

View PostApol, on 18 March 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Guess I haven't any startling new ideas to put forward. My opinion is that Lumkamâkja was in or near Emden. If Âst-Flílând stretched all the way to Weser at that time, it may have been in Emden. If it stretched only to Ems, it may have been in Westeremden, which is situated at the eastern side of the river mouth, barely 10 km west of Delfzijl. This area was settled far back in time. The dolmen (hunebed) of ca. 3400 BC which was found in Heveskesklooster near Delfzijl attests to that:

Posted Image

Westeremden was variously called Emutha, Emetha, Amuthon, Emethe and Emedun anciently. The prefix Wester- was added at a later time to separate the place from Emden. It has been named Westeremden since AD 1379. One knows that Emden has existed since the 8th century AD, and that it at this early stage was a small settlement on a werf. But Westeremden is also an ancient site, though the oldest written evidence for its existence is from AD 944. Gozewijn Acker Stratingh et al (1869) writes that one will have it that the village of Westeremden is the ancient harbour and market place of Amisia (lit. "Emsia") which Ptolemy mentions in his Geography (2:10). They write that what is certain, is that Westeremden was a foremost, prospering place in ancient times. But it lost its former prosperity completely as a result of catastrophes of different sorts, and that it through the growth of Emden on the other side of Ems as a reward now must be content with calling itself Westeremden.

I know that the site of Lutkemūte on Jacob van Deventer’s map of Groningen (1558) once was mentioned as a possible site for Lumkamâkja at this blog. I had detected the same place myself and made the same thoughts. I dont know.

Posted Image

Lutkemūte was a terp near Baamsum in the present village of Termunten, which on this map is named Grote Mute. The name possibly means 'Little Mute'.

Yes, Lutkemūte was another possibility, near Westeremden.

But all the discussed possible locations have names that are not easily or not at all derivable from Lumka-makia.

Like I once said: it looks like a pun on a real name or a nickname. Here we sometimes jokingly call Rotterdam "Rotjeknor", but you will have a hard time finding that nickname in a document.


#2921    Apol

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 03:49 AM

North of the city of Norden, just southeast of the Norden-Norddeich airport, there is an area named Lintelermarsch - a possible candidate for Lumka.mâkja?
Many places have disappeared in these areas. My suggestion is that the site of Lumkamâkja now lies underwater.

'Abramelin' has suggested that the suffix -mâkja might be a variant of the Old Frisian mēta, meytya or meythia - which is an old variant of the English meet and the Norwegian møte. Combined with Goffe Jensma's remark that the word 'Lumkamâkja' sounds like Luimpjemakum (2006, p. 177), the etymology might be "a merry meeting place (tradepost)", which may be a good and proper name for a place.

Edited by Apol, 18 March 2013 - 03:53 AM.


#2922    Apol

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:29 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 March 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

I already posted about Odin's birthplace : it's Odense in Denmark.

And there WAS a little river Ee near Lemster. It's gone now, but you can still find it on ancient maps.

AND we did discuss it.

I regard the title 'Odin' as being a sort of invention.

Wodin had become very popular among the Frisians after the raid against the Magí. The super-sly Magí wanted to make use of this popularity for his own goal, and suggested Wodin to be their own king as well as the king of the Frisians. It was a trick, of course. After he had used Wodin as a sperm donor for getting a grandson - who then would be of a Frisian royal lineage, he placed himself as a "bailiff and guardian or cousellor" over him (→ power!), and did away with Wodin - saying to the people that Wodin "was taken up among their gods, and that he from there ruled over them". The Magí's grandson was certainly named Wodin (Odin) - and possibly a whole line of Magís. The name was used in an attempt of getting political confidence with the Frisiands, because it sounded good in their ears.

The mythological Odin came from the southeast - the sagas says from Tracia, and he was of Trojan ancestry. In other words, he was a Magí. All Magís were, or became, 'Odins', because the name was used so often that it simply became a title.

Edited by Apol, 18 March 2013 - 08:30 AM.


#2923    gestur

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:09 AM

Interesting observation, it sounds true to me.

In relation to the name "Wodin":

Quote

8. Ambiguous "WOOD": timber, forest and fury???

The following shows how "wood" (in OLB: "WOD") was ambiguous and must have been the root of the name "WODIN".


In fragments 1 and 4, "WOD" refers to wood/ forest (Dutch: woud, German: Wald).

In fragments 6, 9, 10, 11 and 12, it means wood/ timber (Dutch: hout, German: Holtz).

In fragments 2, 3, 5, 7 and 8, the word WODIN or WODAN (that are most probably derived from WOD) refers to anger, rage or fury (Dutch: woede, German: Wut)


1. [049/09]

THÉR TO BOPPA HÉDON WI THA NÔMA. LAND.SÁTON MÁR.SATA ÀND HOLT JEFTA WOD.SÁTA

[O+S p.71]

Daarenboven [71]hadden wij de namen Landzaten, Marzaten en Hout- of Woudzaten
Besides these we had the names Landzaten (natives of the land), Marzaten (natives of the fens), and Woud or Hout zaten (natives of the woods)


2. [074/06]

BIFIRA SÉKROPS WODIN WRDE ÀND OVERS BIGVNDE

[O+S p.103]

voor dat Cecrops woedend werd en anders begon

before Cecrops became furious and changed his mind


3. [085/03]

ÉL WEL SÉIDE THENE MAGÍ MITH VRBORGNE WODIN

[O+S p.103]

Heel goed [wel], zeide de Magy met verkropte [verborgen] woede
Very good [well], said the Magy, swelling with [hidden] rage

4. [096/29]

THÉR HIPTH HJA NÉI.T KRÍL.WOD. GRIPT ELSNE TRÉON

[O+S p.135]

Daarop ijlt zij naar het Krijlwoud , grijpt elzentakken
Then she ran to the Krylwood and got some elder branches

5. [104/26]

STORNE WIND KÉM TO BEK JETA WODANDER AS TO FORA

[O+S p.145]

De stormwind kwam terug, woedender als te voren

The [storm-] wind grew stronger [came back, more raging than before]

6. [107/20]

KRÁN.BOGA. TODEKTH MITH WOD ÀND LÉTHER

[O+S p.147]

kraanbogen, gedekt met hout en leder

crossbows [?] covered with wood and leather

7. [120/24]

THA ALEXANDRE FORNOM
THÀT IM SÁN.E GRÁTE FLÁTE VNTFÁRA WAS.
WÀRTH ER WODIN.LIK.
TO SWÉRANDE HI SKOLDE ALLE THORPA AN LOGHA OFFERJA
JEF WI NAVT TO BEK KVMA NILDE.

[O+S p.165]

Toen Alexander vernam

dat zulk eene groote vloot hem ontvaren was,

werd hij als woedend,

zweerende dat hij alle dorpen aan de vlam zoude offeren,

zoo wij niet wilden terug komen

When Alexander heard
that such a large fleet had escaped him,
he became furious,
and swore that he would burn [offer] all the villages [to flames]
if we did not come back


8. [122/19]

MEN ALEXANDER WÉRE WODIN

[O+S p.167]

Maar Alexander was woedend
but Alexander was furious

9. [124/01]

TWA.HONDRED ÉLEPHANTA. THVSEND KÉMLUN.
TOLÉDEN MITH WODEN BALKUM.
RÁPUM ÀND ALLERLÉJA ARK

[O+S p.169]

200 olifanten, 1000 kameelen,

[beladen] met houten balken,

roopen (touwen) en allerlei gereedschap

200 elephants, 1000 camels,
[loaded with] a quantity of timber,
ropes, and all kinds of implements


10. [148/14]

HWAND TO STÁVEREN ÀND ALLINGEN THÀT ALDER.GÁ
THÉR WRDON THA BESTA WÉRSKÉPA MAKED.
FON HERDE ÉKEN WOD THÉR NIMMERTHE NÉN ROT AN NE KVM

[O+S p.201]

Want te Staveren en langs het Alderga,

daar werden de beste oorlogschepen gemaakt

van hard eiken hout, daar nimmer verrotting in komt

because at Stavere, [and] along the Alberga,
the best ships of war were built
of hard oak which never rots


11. [150/02]

BURCH.WÉPNE. WOD. HIRBAKEN STÉN.
TIMBER.LJUD MIRTSELÉRA ÀND SMÉDA

[O+S p.203]

burgtwapenen, hout, hardgebakken steenen,

timmerlieden, metselaren, en smeden

weapons for wall defences, wood, [hardbaked] bricks,
carpenters, masons, and smiths


12. [198/30]

HJARA WÉPNE SEND WODEN BOGA

[O+S p.239]

hunne wapenen zijn houten bogen

Their arms are wooden bows

Source: http://fryskednis.bl...01_archive.html

Edited by gestur, 18 March 2013 - 10:16 AM.

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#2924    gestur

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:23 AM

"Odin" seems to be derived from "OD":

(page 6, Forma Skédnise)

RING AS HJA RIP WÉRON KRÉJON HJA FRUCHDA AND NOCHTA ANDA DRAMA.
WR.ALDA.S OD TRAD TO RA BINNA.
AND NW BARDON EK TWILIF SVNA AND TWILIF TOGETHERA.

This word is associated to life-force or fertility, as discussed before.

so, originally Odin and Wodin may have been diferent names with different meanings.

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#2925    Apol

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:37 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 March 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

Yes, Lutkemūte was another possibility, near Westeremden.

But all the discussed possible locations have names that are not easily or not at all derivable from Lumka-makia.

Like I once said: it looks like a pun on a real name or a nickname. Here we sometimes jokingly call Rotterdam "Rotjeknor", but you will have a hard time finding that nickname in a document.

Your idea that Lumkamâkja could have been just on the opposite side of the Flímâr is very interesting. One has swallowed Ottema's translation and the place-names with it. The clue is of course that the text says that Wodin lived in Lumkjamâkja at the rivermouth in Âst-Flílând - like there was only one rivermouth there, while Tünis and Inka lived by their paternal uncle in Aldergâmvde.

As said before, I have placed Aldergâmvde in Hoorn, among other things because from the 500 BC palaeographical map - if it is right - Enkhuizen (proposed by Jensma) may have been situated in the middle of a long peninsula stretching eastwards into the Flímâr at that time.

http://commons.wikim...ex_leg_copy.jpg
http://commons.wikim...ex_leg_copy.jpg

(Wish they had made maps of 2000 BC and 1000 BC also)

I have found a small river named De Ie on the Google map - is it that one you mean?
Yes, Lumkamâkja is truly the most difficult place to locate.

Edited by Apol, 18 March 2013 - 12:51 PM.





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