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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#3061    Abramelin

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:02 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 25 March 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

It fits and I showed Dutch genoeg is enough so it must fit cause that's the word. The trouble is you are now seeing this word as 'delights' but it's really 'enough'.

This meaning is not unusual imo and if you look at it as abundance and fruits of abundance, cornucopia it all fits very neat and nicely.

God didn't give us delights, God gave us abundance.  An abundance of stuff is however, very delightful.

I don't buy the Frisian/Fryan word is nux/nochta/nuts at all. Not one little bit.

Its literal meaning is 'nuts', its metaphorical meaning is 'delights'.

Here it can not mean 'enough':

Êr thêre aerge tid kêm was vs lând thaet skênnéste in wr.alda. Svnne rês hager aend thêr was sjelden frost. Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta,

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. On the trees and shrubs grew fruits and nuts.

According to you it should be:
Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. On the trees and shrubs grew fruits and enough.


#3062    Abramelin

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:20 AM

Correction: I said I believed the 'nochta' in that sentence should have been 'nota'.

So nothing to do with literal or metaphorical, it's probably a typo in the OLB.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 March 2013 - 02:20 AM.


#3063    Abramelin

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:24 AM

The funny thing is that the old Dutch word "geneugte" is derived from 'enough', or in Dutch: 'genoeg'.

Look at some old spellings here:  genugde, genuchde, genuogte, genochte, genuchte, gnoechten and remember that the Frisians always dropped the GE- prefix (or that other germanic peoples added it).

http://www.etymologi...fwoord/geneugte

It did indeed mean 'abundance', but later on shifted to the meaning of 'delight' and 'pleasure'.


http://www.etymologi...fwoord/geneugte


But it still doesn't fit in that sentence about the trees and shrubs.


#3064    Knul

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:15 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 25 March 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

The funny thing is that the old Dutch word "geneugte" is derived from 'enough', or in Dutch: 'genoeg'.

Look at some old spellings here:  genugde, genuchde, genuogte, genochte, genuchte, gnoechten and remember that the Frisians always dropped the GE- prefix (or that other germanic peoples added it).

http://www.etymologi...fwoord/geneugte

It did indeed mean 'abundance', but later on shifted to the meaning of 'delight' and 'pleasure'.


http://www.etymologi...fwoord/geneugte


But it still doesn't fit in that sentence about the trees and shrubs.

''geneugte'' en 'genoegens' are derived from 'genot', 'genieten'. Maybe we should look at MS 006:

RING AS HJA RIP WЄRON
KRЄJON HJA FRŮCHDA ÆND NOCHTA ANDA DRÆMA .
WRALDAS OD TRAD TORA BINNA - ÆND NW BARDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÆND TWILIF TOGAÐERA

Looks like puberty of young girls and their phantasies. Here fruchda and nochta should be translated as joy (vreugde) and fun (genoegens). No fruits and nuts to dream about, I guess.
The third line about Wralda's od has been discussed here.

Edited by Knul, 25 March 2013 - 03:46 AM.


#3065    The Puzzler

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:42 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 25 March 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

Its literal meaning is 'nuts', its metaphorical meaning is 'delights'.

Here it can not mean 'enough':

Êr thêre aerge tid kêm was vs lând thaet skênnéste in wr.alda. Svnne rês hager aend thêr was sjelden frost. Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta,

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. On the trees and shrubs grew fruits and nuts.

According to you it should be:
Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. On the trees and shrubs grew fruits and enough.
Here's etymology of nocht - from naked to night to West Frisian enough and also fun, pleasure.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nocht

No nuts but enough fun, pleasure and nakedness at night.

I'm not sure how I'd phrase it exactly yet.

Edited by The Puzzler, 25 March 2013 - 03:47 AM.

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#3066    The Puzzler

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 03:52 AM

View PostKnul, on 25 March 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

''geneugte'' en 'genoegens' are derived from 'genot', 'genieten'. Maybe we should look at MS 006:

RING AS HJA RIP WЄRON
KRЄJON HJA FRŮCHDA ÆND NOCHTA ANDA DRÆMA .
WRALDAS OD TRAD TORA BINNA - ÆND NW BARDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÆND TWILIF TOGAÐERA

Looks like puberty of young girls and their phantasies. Here fruchda and nochta should be translated as joy (vreugde) and fun (genoegens). No fruits and nuts to dream about, I guess.
The third line about Wralda's od has been discussed here.
Sorry Knul, I changed my mind on my answer to you so edited it out.

What word is joy in Frisian Knul?

I found this word somewhat like FRŮCHDA

frið-del




5, frið-del-f, frð-del-f, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Geliebter, Gatte; ne. beloved


(M.), husband; Hw.: vgl. an. friOEill, anfrk. friuthil, as. friuthil*, ahd. friudil*, mhd.

friedel; Q.: H; E.: germ. *fridila-, *fridilaz, st. M. (a), Geliebter; s. idg. *prõi-,

*prýi-, *prÂ-, V., Adj., gern haben, schonen, lieben, friedlich, froh, Pokorny 844; L.:

Hh 32a, Rh 767b

Edited by The Puzzler, 25 March 2013 - 04:11 AM.

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#3067    Abramelin

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 05:43 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 25 March 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

Here's etymology of nocht - from naked to night to West Frisian enough and also fun, pleasure.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nocht

No nuts but enough fun, pleasure and nakedness at night.

I'm not sure how I'd phrase it exactly yet.

Sure, and it grows on trees.

So now we're throwing Celtic into the equation?

From Old Irish nocht ("naked, bare, uncovered"), from Proto-Celtic *nokʷto- (“naked”) (compare Welsh noeth).

I think we can all agree that the "nochta" in the sentence about the trees and shrubs is a typo.

Or a hint, of course....

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 March 2013 - 05:57 AM.


#3068    Van Gorp

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 06:04 AM

Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta.

I think the symbolical meaning lies in the first part.

"Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton" -> aan de bomen groeien as an expression of abundance or being evident.

Example: 'Jij denkt zeker dat het geld aan de bomen groeit?" Money growing from the trees doesn't fit either but is used as an expression.



Vreugde en geneugden groeiden er aan de bomen. (Joy and pleasure was evident, not hard to find).


#3069    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 07:35 AM

Its probably just one of those words that has more than one meaning ......say yellow , we could say its the colour , its un-ripe/ or new to something , un-trained, in-experienced , its scared or frightened or cowardly  etc..

What is Waxton , is it like when something is waxed , it becomes free and easy , then maybe you are supposed to read into the whole sentence a meaning something like  , in the early times after creation in the garden , everything was easy , and we always had enough .

even genughde could look like get naked , or rather get nude , as another meaning of the word .

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 25 March 2013 - 07:37 AM.


#3070    Abramelin

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 07:53 AM

OK, I agree with you all: it's a metaphor.


thessa byldon jâvon hja antha vnaerg thaenkanda ljuda, to longa lersta sêidon hja thaet Jes-us en drochten wêre, thaet-i thaet selva an hjam bilêden hêde, aend thaet alle thêr an him aend an sina lêra lâwa wilde, nêimels in sin kêningkrik kvme skolde, hwêr frü is aend nochta send.

deze beelden gaven zij aan de onerg ("argeloos") denkende lieden, te lange leste zeiden zij dat Jes-us een Heer ware, dat-ie dat zelve aan hen belijd had, ende dat alle die aan hem ende zijn leer ge-loven wilden, namaals in zijn koninkrijk komen zulden, waar vreugde is en ge-neugten zijn.

They gave these statues to simple/guileless people, and at last they said that Jes-us was a god (Lord), that he had declared this himself to them, and that all those who followed his doctrine should enter his kingdom hereafter, where all was joy and pleasure/delight



=

Yes, 'waxton' is waxed, but you can forget about the 'genughde' being 'get naked', lol.


.


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Edited by Abramelin, 25 March 2013 - 07:56 AM.


#3071    Abramelin

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 08:26 AM

Not being stubborn here, but now again I have my doubts about the sentence being a metaphor, but that's because i didn't quote the whole paragraph:

That stêt vp alle burgum eskrêven.

Êr thêre aerge tid kêm was vs lând thaet skênnéste in wr.alda. Svnne rês hager aend thêr was sjelden frost. Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta, thêr nw vrlêren send. Among tha gaers-sêdum hedon wi navt alena kêren, ljaver aend blyde, men âk swete thêr lik gold blikte aend thaet maen vndera svnnastrêla bakja kvste. Jêron ne wrde navt ne telath, hwand thaet êne jêr was alsa blyd as et ôthera.

Sandbach:

THIS STANDS INSCRIBED UPON ALL CITADELS.

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.


http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#au


"which are now lost".... it really does look like the writer is talking about actual stuff growing on trees, and certainly when you read what comes right after it (barley, oats, rye, wheat ).

+++++++

EDIT:

And because it is about actual stuff growing on the trees and in the fields, then, in case of "nochta", the Latin 'nux' shows up again:

nougat (n.)
"sweetmeat of almonds and other nuts," 1827, from French nougat (18c.), from Provençal nougat "cake made with almonds," from Old Provençal nogat "nutcake," from noga, nuga "nut," from Vulgar Latin *nucatum (nominative *nuca), from Latin nux (genitive nucis) "nut," from PIE *kneu- "nut" (see nucleus).

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none


.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 March 2013 - 08:38 AM.


#3072    Knul

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 08:31 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 25 March 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

Sorry Knul, I changed my mind on my answer to you so edited it out.

What word is joy in Frisian Knul?


Hh 32a, Rh 767b

freugde, blidskip


#3073    Abramelin

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 08:51 AM

View PostKnul, on 25 March 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

freugde, blidskip

According to the online Old Frisian dictionary :

frou-d-e 1, afries., F.: nhd. Freude; ne. delight (N.); Hw.: vgl. ahd. frouwida*,
mnd. vröude, mnl. vroude, mhd. vröude; Q.: AA 129; I.: Lw. mnd. vroude; E.: s.
mnd. vroude; s. germ. *frawa-, *frawaz, Adj., rasch, hurtig, froh, fröhlich; vgl. idg.
*preu-, V., springen, hüpfen, Pokorny 845

Dutch: vreugde


fræ-lik-hê-d 1, afries., st. F. (i): nhd. Fröhlichkeit, Freude; ne. joy (N.), happiness;
Hw.: vgl. mnd. vrölichêit, mnl. frolicheit, mhd. vrÏlicheit; Q.: AA 178; I.: Lw. mnl.
frolicheit; E.: s. frÐ, -lik

Dutch: vrolijkheid

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-F.pdf



niõt-a 7, afries., st. V. (2): nhd. genießen; ne. enjoy; Vw.: s. bi-, und-; Hw.: s. nât
(2); Hw.: vgl. got. niutan, an. njæta, ae. néotan, anfrk. nietan, as. niotan, ahd.
niozan; Q.: S, W, B, E; E.: germ. *neutan, st. V., einfangen, genießen, nutzen; idg.
*neud-?, V., greifen, nutzen, ergreifen, Pokorny 768?; W.: s. genietjen, V.,
genießen; L.

Dutch: ge-nieten

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-N.pdf


bli-th-skip 4, bli-d-skip, afries., st. F. (i): nhd. Freude, Fröhlichkeit; ne. joy (V.);
Hw.: vgl. an. blithskapr, mnl. bliskap, plattd. bliscop; Q.: AA 203; E.: germ.
*bleiþaskapi-, *bleiþaskapiz, st. F. (i), Freude; s. idg. *bhlÁi- (1), *bhlýi-, *bhlÆ-, V.,
glänzen, Pokorny 155; vgl. idg. *bhel- (1), *bhelý-, Adj., V., glänzend, weiß,
glänzen, Pokorny 118; idg. *skÀp-, *kÀp-, V., schneiden, spalten, Pokorny 930; W.:
nfries. blydschap; W.: saterl. blidskop; W.: nnordfries. blidschip;

Dutch: blijdschap

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-B.pdf

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 March 2013 - 08:58 AM.


#3074    Knul

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 09:16 AM

vreugden en geneugten, vruchten en genugten is a standard idiomatic expression. Just type the words on internet and you find many examples.  Standard expression means: if you say vreugden or vruchten automatically follows geneugten or genugten without special meaning. There are other expresions like kaatjes en praatjes, moord en brand, lasten en lusten, te pas en te onpas. I would not know, if English has such variants too. In fact the combination of vreugden en geneugten you find in the protestant catechismus on the subject of marriage like: Waarom zijn door de Schepper alle vreugden en geneugten, van de eerst tot de laatste, in de echtelijke liefde bijeenvergaderd? s. http://www.swedenbor...echismus-h9-v18 .  Such expressions belonged to the standard repertoire of the protestant ministers like Halbertsma.

Edited by Knul, 25 March 2013 - 09:29 AM.


#3075    Abramelin

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 09:21 AM

View PostKnul, on 25 March 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

vreugden en geneugten, vruchten en genugten is a standard expression. Just type the words on internet and you find many examples.  Standard expression means: if you say vreugden or vruchten automatically follows geneugten or genugten without special meaning. There are other expresions like kaatjes en praatjes, moord en brand. I would not know, if English has such variants too. In fact the combination of vreugden en geneugten you find in the protestant catechismus on the subject of marriage like: Waarom zijn door de Schepper alle vreugden en geneugten, van de eerst tot de laatste, in de echtelijke liefde bijeenvergaderd? s. http://www.swedenbor...echismus-h9-v18 .


But how does that fit into this paragraph which is obviously about a list of things growing on trees and in the fields:


That stêt vp alle burgum eskrêven.

Êr thêre aerge tid kêm was vs lând thaet skênnéste in wr.alda. Svnne rês hager aend thêr was sjelden frost. Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta, thêr nw vrlêren send. Among tha gaers-sêdum hedon wi navt alena kêren, ljaver aend blyde, men âk swete thêr lik gold blikte aend thaet maen vndera svnnastrêla bakja kvste. Jêron ne wrde navt ne telath, hwand thaet êne jêr was alsa blyd as et ôthera.

Sandbach:

THIS STANDS INSCRIBED UPON ALL CITADELS.

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.



+++

EDIT:

In the next quote it is obvious that something Biblical was meant:


thessa byldon jâvon hja antha vnaerg thaenkanda ljuda, to longa lersta sêidon hja thaet Jes-us en drochten wêre, thaet-i thaet selva an hjam bilêden hêde, aend thaet alle thêr an him aend an sina lêra lâwa wilde, nêimels in sin kêningkrik kvme skolde, hwêr frü is aend nochta send.

deze beelden gaven zij aan de onerg ("argeloos") denkende lieden, te lange leste zeiden zij dat Jes-us een Heer ware, dat-ie dat zelve aan hen belijd had, ende dat alle die aan hem ende zijn leer ge-loven wilden, namaals in zijn koninkrijk komen zulden, waar vreugde is en ge-neugten zijn.

They gave these statues to simple/guileless people, and at last they said that Jes-us was a god (Lord), that he had declared this himself to them, and that all those who followed his doctrine should enter his kingdom hereafter, where all was joy and pleasure/delight.


Ottema changed Jes-us into Jessos. Why? I think I know why: because if you didn't know any better, you'd think you were reading about Jesus/Christianity, and he wanted that similarity to be less obvious.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 March 2013 - 10:12 AM.