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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#3106    Apol

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:32 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 26 March 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Have you thought about the bâma aend trêjon?

Yes, I have.
But I haven't found anything to refer to for proving my translation.

I just compared to the mythology, where it is written about Lyda:
a large bâm she could bend, and when she walked no flower-stalk broke under her feet.

A little further down the story continues with Finda:
She could not bend a ðrê, but where Lyda would kill a lion, she killed there rather ten.

A bâm must be the same as the German Baum, which means a tree.
When bâm is a tree, what is then a ðrê? Even in Norway we say tre, which means the very same as in English - a tree.
A tree should have been the same as the German Baum, but here it is obviously somewhat else, but still a tree.
I read between the lines that Finda could not bend EVEN a ðrê, so, I reasoned that a ðrê must be of a lesser size than a bâm.
In other words it must be a 'shrub'.


#3107    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:36 PM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 26 March 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

Could it be it does not mean a specific tree , but one means coppice , or grove , and the other means woods , or forest  or orchard or plantation

bâma might be beam, which could mean the branches, or the trunk.

On the branches on trees grew...

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3108    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:38 PM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 26 March 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

In english we have a saying " to wax lyrical " or be waxing lyrical about something , and it means to be profuse , come out in speech with an abundance of words about things that you like ,or admire ,so the lyrical would be the speech , and wax, waxing , waxton would be the abundance part
A waxing moon is a moon that is growing. (The white gets bigger)

View PostApol, on 26 March 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Yes, I have.
But I haven't found anything to refer to for proving my translation.

I just compared to the mythology, where it is written about Lyda:
a large bâm she could bend, and when she walked no flower-stalk broke under her feet.

A little further down the story continues with Finda:
She could not bend a ðrê, but where Lyda would kill a lion, she killed there rather ten.

A bâm must be the same as the German Baum, which means a tree.
When bâm is a tree, what is then a ðrê? Even in Norway we say tre, which means the very same as in English - a tree.
A tree should have been the same as the German Baum, but here it is obviously somewhat else, but still a tree.
I read between the lines that Finda could not bend EVEN a ðrê, so, I reasoned that a ðrê must be of a lesser size than a bâm.
In other words it must be a 'shrub'.
A beam, a branch or trunk.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3109    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:02 PM

The Bema is what the judgement seat of Christ is called , but that does not really seem to fit ? unless it has something to do with why the bad times came , and the years of abundance went  ?


#3110    The Puzzler

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:06 PM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 26 March 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

The Bema is what the judgement seat of Christ is called , but that does not really seem to fit ? unless it has something to do with why the bad times came , and the years of abundance went  ?
bam in Frisian will take you to seat, but it's still beam/tree.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beam
Etymology 2
West Frisian
Etymology

From Old Frisian bām, from Proto-Germanic *baumaz

http://en.wiktionary...bam#Old_Frisian
Old Frisian
Etymology

From Proto-Germanic *baumaz.
Noun

bām m

Edited by The Puzzler, 26 March 2013 - 05:07 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3111    Knul

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:06 AM

View PostApol, on 26 March 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Yes, I have.
But I haven't found anything to refer to for proving my translation.

I just compared to the mythology, where it is written about Lyda:
a large bâm she could bend, and when she walked no flower-stalk broke under her feet.

A little further down the story continues with Finda:
She could not bend a ðrê, but where Lyda would kill a lion, she killed there rather ten.

A bâm must be the same as the German Baum, which means a tree.
When bâm is a tree, what is then a ðrê? Even in Norway we say tre, which means the very same as in English - a tree.
A tree should have been the same as the German Baum, but here it is obviously somewhat else, but still a tree.
I read between the lines that Finda could not bend EVEN a ðrê, so, I reasoned that a ðrê must be of a lesser size than a bâm.
In other words it must be a 'shrub'.
bâm and ðrê can easily be synonyms without difference in meaning. In fact ðrê is English tree. OLB contains many English words used to indicate the proto Frisian-English substrate.


#3112    Apol

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:49 AM

View PostKnul, on 27 March 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

bâm and ðrê can easily be synonyms without difference in meaning. In fact ðrê is English tree. OLB contains many English words used to indicate the proto Frisian-English substrate.

Gerhard Köbler: Altfriesisches Wörterbuch:

[p. 21] Bâm 26, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Baum, Stammbaum, Galgen, Stange; ne. tree (N.), familiy tree, gallows (N.), beam (N.); ÜG.: lat. arbor L 2, (fūstis) L 8; Vw.: s. pal-m-, *stal-l-es-, up-stal-l-es-; Hw.: vgl. an. baðmr, ae. béam (1), as. bôm, ahd. boum; Q.: S, H, B, E, F, W, Jur, L 2, L 8; E.: germ. *bagma-, *bagmaz, *bauma-, *baumaz, *bazma-, *bazmaz, st. M. (a), Baum; W.: nfries. baem, beamme, bjemme; W.: saterl. bame; L.: Hh 5a, Rh 618a.

[p. 266]Trē 11, afries., st. N. (wa): nhd. Baum; ne. tree; Hw.: vgl. got. triu*, an. tre, ae. tréo, as. trio*; Q.: H, E; E.: germ. *trewa-, *trewam, st. N. (a), Baum, Holz; idg. *deru-, *dreu-, *drū-, Sb., Baum, Pokorny 214; W.: nnordfries. tre, trä; L.: Hh 115b, Rh 1093b.

Yes, from Köbler's dictionary the two words are synonyms - bâm means 'tree', and ðrê means 'tree'.
but it will not give any solution to the sentence:

anda bâma ænd trêjon waxton frügda and nochta ðêr nw vr lêren send

Edited by Apol, 27 March 2013 - 03:22 AM.


#3113    Apol

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:14 AM

From this sentence it seems like ðrê/trê must have been the smallest of bâm and ðrê/trê:

[96/32] ðêr hipð hju nêi.t kríl.wod. gripð elsne trêon tragd en breg tomakjande.
[96/32] There she leapt towards the bog wood, grabbed alder bushes, tried to make a bridge.

It seems to me that a ðrê is a small tree.

Edited by Apol, 27 March 2013 - 04:14 AM.


#3114    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:41 AM

View PostApol, on 27 March 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

From this sentence it seems like ðrê/trê must have been the smallest of bâm and ðrê/trê:

[96/32] ðêr hipð hju nêi.t kríl.wod. gripð elsne trêon tragd en breg tomakjande.
[96/32] There she leapt towards the bog wood, grabbed alder bushes, tried to make a bridge.

It seems to me that a ðrê is a small tree.

Maybe but the word derives with oak, and oaks are not known as small. Of course, it doesn't mean Fryans saw a tree as an oak but this description would have been contributing to the meaning of tree, imo - it was also 'wood', meaning the tre was useful to use as wood, which oak is and generally large trees.

The Alder tree doesn't look all that small.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alder

Posted Image

Edited by The Puzzler, 27 March 2013 - 08:51 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3115    Abramelin

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 09:45 AM

View PostKnul, on 27 March 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

bâm and ðrê can easily be synonyms without difference in meaning. In fact ðrê is English tree. OLB contains many English words used to indicate the proto Frisian-English substrate.

Btw, it's not bâm and ðrê, but bâm and trê .

ðrê means 'three' everywhere in the OLB.

It only shows up meaning 'tree' in the description of Finda's characteristics, but that ðrê is obviously a typo.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 27 March 2013 - 10:18 AM.


#3116    Abramelin

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 09:47 AM

View PostApol, on 27 March 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

From this sentence it seems like ðrê/trê must have been the smallest of bâm and ðrê/trê:

[96/32] ðêr hipð hju nêi.t kríl.wod. gripð elsne trêon tragd en breg tomakjande.
[96/32] There she leapt towards the bog wood, grabbed alder bushes, tried to make a bridge.

It seems to me that a ðrê is a small tree.

You say bog wood, but actually it isbog tree, so still a tree. But yes, apparently a small one.


#3117    Apol

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:21 AM

View PostApol, on 26 March 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

This was simply before a name had formed for 'fruits'. Douglas Harper writes:

Fruit (n.) late 12c., from Old French fruit "fruit, fruit eaten as dessert; harvest; virtuous action" (12c.), from Latin fructus "an enjoyment, delight, satisfaction; proceeds, produce, fruit, crops," from frug-, stem of frui "to use, enjoy," from PIE *bhrug- "agricultural produce," also "to enjoy" (see brook (v.)).
http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

Ljudgêrt relates from his homeland Sindh that "by us are berry trees like your linden trees" (168/4-5), which shows that they could use the designation 'berries' for fruit.
There exists, however, a word for 'nuts' in the book - on 167/29-30 we read: "nuts as large as children’s heads". It is obviously derived from nochta, which means 'delights'. The experts have a little more clumsy explanation for the etymology of the word 'nut', though.

I have to correct myself regarding what I have written:

The OLB has a word for 'fruits': 9/15, 12/16, 104/4, 166/24, 167/23 and 207/6 talk about früchda/fruchta in contexts where it obviously means 'fruits' and not 'pleasures'. The word is also used figuratively, like 'fruits of bad work' or the like.

This means that they had words both for fruits and for nuts contemporary with the saying früchda änd nochta.
Still I hold that früchda änd nochta must be translated into 'pleasures and delights' though, because the saying must have a unity, and this is the only way it can have that. But it is obviously an equivocation - at the same time it means 'fruits and nuts'.

Like I've said before, Douglas Harper writes that the English word fruit stems from the Latin fructus, which means "an enjoyment, delight, satisfaction”...

Edited by Apol, 27 March 2013 - 10:35 AM.


#3118    Apol

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:23 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 27 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

You say bog wood, but actually it isbog tree, so still a tree. But yes, apparently a small one.


Wiarda, Richthofen, Hettema and Köbler all state that both bam and thre (tre, dre) mean 'tree' in Old Frisian. Wiarda even says that thre explicitly is called bam in the Hunsinger Landrecht”. In the OLB, however, there is in fact a difference between bâm and ðrê/trê. It says:

On ða bâma and ða trêjon grew pleasures and delights which are now lost (47/9-11).

I have reasoned: what does the difference between ðrê and bâm imply - is it about species, deciduous versus coniferous trees, size?

It is obvious not about species, because it says:
"...there are many foreign ðrê and flowers brought along by the steersmen" (107/31-33),
"...he [Alexander] had let his soldiers cut bâma and make planks (of them) [in Pangab]" (122/5-6), and in the laws:  
…ða bâma, these ones no one can fell without common deliberation, and without the knowledge of the forester" (20/9-11).
In other words, it is obviously about trees in general.

It cannot be about deciduous versus coniferous trees either, because, as just mentioned, it grew 'pleasures and delights' on them - which it doesn't do on coniferous trees to a normal extent.

Then it is quite unavoidable that the difference should be about size. When Adela tried to come to the aid of three children who had rescued themselves upon a gravestone during a peat fire, she grabbed some elsne ('alder-') trêon and tried to make a bridge of them (95/32). To be sure, Adela was two meters tall, and surey as strong as an ox, but she would have had to go a long way in moving big trees; it's also doubtful how practical it would have been in the situation.
And the mythology says about Lyda that "...a large bâm she could bend, and when she walked no flower-stalk broke under her feet" (7/10-12), while it is said about Finda that "...she could not bend a ðrê, but where Lyda would kill a lion, there she killed rather ten" (7/32-8/2).

In other words, it looks like a ðrê/trê is a small tree, while bâm is a big tree. That a bâm is a big tree, is ascertained in the relation about Alexander the Great above, who let his soldiers cut bâma for making planks of them. One doesn't make planks from shrubs or bushes for the building of ships.

Edited by Apol, 27 March 2013 - 11:53 AM.


#3119    Abramelin

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:39 AM

I noticed that the sentence about the trees and flowers brought along by the steersmen is the second instance the OLB word for 'tree' is misspelled, or three/ðrê instead of trê .


#3120    The Puzzler

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:17 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 27 March 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

You say bog wood, but actually it isbog tree, so still a tree. But yes, apparently a small one.

It says kril.wod and later and in English Krylinger Wood.

How is krìl = bog?  and then I don't think it's bog tree, it's bog-wood but it might not be bog - it might be small woods or curling woods, an arc shaped woods. It's elder or alder tree.

I'm only finding krìl  as either small/tiny as per krill or curl. I understand it is in the marshes so could see it being a bog wood but what word are you using for krìl/bog?

In an mmm bop it's gone...




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