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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#3211    Abramelin

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 12:43 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 28 March 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

It looks to me like it's meant to be a W - they have written the first part of the W, a V - then dipped their ink pen, then drawn the 2nd V of the letter W shape, which because they stopped and dipped their ink pen,  (you can see by the darker 2nd V) is not quite joined in the middle.

It may have been caused by the ink pen used, but even then we should copy exactly as it is written in the MS, errors and all.

Well, that's what I think.


#3212    The Puzzler

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:17 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 28 March 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

It may have been caused by the ink pen used, but even then we should copy exactly as it is written in the MS, errors and all.

Well, that's what I think.

It's just 2 parts of the letter not joined correctly imo - the word is Wralda, it would be strange to suddenly have  VV there, which looks just like a W. The 2 x V's nearly touch each other.  I would never have thought it was 2 x V even though it does look somewhat like it - so maybe the translators never thought it was either.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3213    Abramelin

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:33 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 28 March 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

It's just 2 parts of the letter not joined correctly imo - the word is Wralda, it would be strange to suddenly have  VV there, which looks just like a W. The 2 x V's nearly touch each other.  I would never have thought it was 2 x V even though it does look somewhat like it - so maybe the translators never thought it was either.

Well, I'll have to agree with Apol: it does indeed look like VV not a W.  It may be caused by the ink pen, it may be caused by a typo, whatever.

But I am still convinced the letter -W- was part of the OLB alphabet, or else it would not show up as a single letter in that Yule wheel I posted.

You know, the letter -W- that was left out of the letter sheet of the original MS. Along with the letter for -GS- , btw.


#3214    The Puzzler

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:40 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 28 March 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Just think of 'creepy crawly' critters. small and lively, swarming. Entangled underwood, like the bramble. If you have a garden, you'll ''love'' bramble, lol.

Like 'wriggle' or wrigga... the crawling animals were wrigga - wrigglies - things that wriggle - then underwood is krylwood - so kryl wood as crawl wood is ????   even though there is some probable connection - Fryan distinctly has wriggle for crawling animals.

To fâra wrdon er âk tha selva wrigga fonden, maer vsa êthla havon alle krylwalda vrbaernath aend alsânâka aefter et wilde kwik jâged, that ther fê maer resta.

Formerly there existed also the same crawling animals, but our forefathers burnt all the underwood, and so diligently hunted all the wild animals, that there are scarcely any left.

---------------------------------------------

OK, here's what I've been looking for.... (I was saying about it's shape, like a curve)



krâw-il




3, krâw-el, krõu-l, afries., M.: nhd. Haken, Gabel; ne. hook (N.), fork (N.);


Vw.: s. -kru-m-b; Hw.: vgl. as. krauwil*, kreuwil*, ahd. krewil, krouwil*, mnl.

krauwel; E.: s. germ. *krub-, V., krümmen; idg. *greub-, V., krümmen, biegen,

kriechen, Pokorny 389; vgl. idg. *ger- (3), V., drehen, winden, Pokorny 385; L.:

Hh 60a, Rh 878b

krâw-il-kru-m-b



3, krâw-el-kru-m-b, afries., Adj.: nhd. hakenkrumm, krumm wie


ein Haken; ne. crooked like a hook; Q.: E, W; E.: s. krâw-il, kru-m-b*; L.: Hh

60b, Rh 878b



I just had to bend my sounds abit to locate it.


----------------------------------------------------------------
The origin of the word crewel is unknown but is thought to come from an ancient word describing the curl in the staple, the single hair of the wool.

http://en.wikipedia....ewel_embroidery

Edited by The Puzzler, 28 March 2013 - 02:09 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3215    The Puzzler

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:52 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 28 March 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Well, I'll have to agree with Apol: it does indeed look like VV not a W.  It may be caused by the ink pen, it may be caused by a typo, whatever.

But I am still convinced the letter -W- was part of the OLB alphabet, or else it would not show up as a single letter in that Yule wheel I posted.

You know, the letter -W- that was left out of the letter sheet of the original MS. Along with the letter for -GS- , btw.

Yeah, in WRALDAS name.

Didn't Otharus once talk about it being a double U? (became a W or something). Also a V could relate to it being VER in the transfer of wer/man - but it was too much of a headache and the V in that world doesn't seem Fryan/Frisian.

I'm still just going for it being a W and really don't need to waste time on that one.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3216    Apol

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 02:37 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 28 March 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

It looks to me like it's meant to be a W - they have written the first part of the W, a V - then dipped their ink pen, then drawn the 2nd V of the letter W shape, which because they stopped and dipped their ink pen,  (you can see by the darker 2nd V) is not quite joined in the middle.

Posted Image  Posted Image  Posted Image  Posted Image

Posted Image  Posted Image  Posted Image  Posted Image

The name is written in different ways:

Vvralda, Vvr.alda, Wr.alda, Wralda, Wr alda, Wr.aldi, Wr.ald

8 times with VV, 93 times with a W

Edited by Apol, 28 March 2013 - 02:55 PM.


#3217    Abramelin

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:58 PM

I even see a correction by adding an extra -V- .

So it clearly was no typo or slip of the pen.


#3218    Knul

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 05:40 PM

View PostApol, on 28 March 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Posted Image  Posted Image  Posted Image  Posted Image

Posted Image  Posted Image  Posted Image  Posted Image

The name is written in different ways:

Vvralda, Vvr.alda, Wr.alda, Wralda, Wr alda, Wr.aldi, Wr.ald

8 times with VV, 93 times with a W

W is a ligature of VV or UU. Just a matter of spelling without difference of meaning.


#3219    Abramelin

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 05:46 PM

View PostKnul, on 28 March 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

W is a ligature of VV or UU. Just a matter of spelling without difference of meaning.

We know that the -W- is the joining of two V's, but was it also considered to be a unique letter in the OLB?

I think it is.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 28 March 2013 - 05:47 PM.


#3220    Knul

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:44 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 28 March 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

We know that the -W- is the joining of two V's, but was it also considered to be a unique letter in the OLB?

I think it is.

.

View PostAbramelin, on 28 March 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

We know that the -W- is the joining of two V's, but was it also considered to be a unique letter in the OLB?

I think it is.

.

In most cases W is written like in ower, witskap etc. I guess that the spelling VV has been used to make the text look older or to discern with WRALD = World.

Edited by Knul, 28 March 2013 - 06:48 PM.


#3221    Abramelin

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:43 PM

View PostKnul, on 28 March 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

In most cases W is written like in ower, witskap etc. I guess that the spelling VV has been used to make the text look older or to discern with WRALD = World.

YES, and that's what I think too.

Any real ancient text in NW Europe uses UU or VV throughout the text.


Btw, this thread is of course for a very large part about Frisians and Friesland.

LOL, I didn't even realize it, but the flag of the city I live in for some decades now has this flag:

Attached File  Vlag2.gif   1.86K   1 downloads

Comment on a website: "(...) apparently connected to the famous Frisian "pompebledden".

A more modern version:

Attached File  Vlag.gif   2.51K   1 downloads

And when I look out of my window on the south, I see streets called Westergo, Oostergo and Fivelingo...

I am doomed.


#3222    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:39 PM

Note also on page 96 of Tresor the word is written treon , and not trejon .( last word on page )


Are the wiggly lines in some parts of page 96 , and in other places ,supposed to indicate that the original document was damaged , and he could not read it to copy it ??
if so which one was damaged the one saved from the flood presumably ,but could it have been the copy was damaged later  ??


#3223    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:12 PM

View PostKnul, on 28 March 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

In most cases W is written like in ower, witskap etc. I guess that the spelling VV has been used to make the text look older or to discern with WRALD = World.

You could look at it that way Knul , but you could also think it was possible that when it was copied because it was damaged in the 13th Century , he updated some of the letters/words to what was currently being used in his time , but missed a few V Vs, if he was saving it for future generations he could have changed quite a few  ancient words for ones being used in the 13th C , he may have thought if he left them as ancient versions , no one would understand them in a few years , perhaps this could explain why some think the language is too modern in a few cases . ??

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 28 March 2013 - 09:14 PM.


#3224    Abramelin

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:17 PM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 28 March 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

Note also on page 96 of Tresor the word is written treon , and not trejon .( last word on page )


Are the wiggly lines in some parts of page 96 , and in other places ,supposed to indicate that the original document was damaged , and he could not read it to copy it ??
if so which one was damaged the one saved from the flood presumably ,but could it have been the copy was damaged later  ??

Very good observation, No !

Damn, now I am seriously thinking of visiting an optician.

Those wiggly lines are (according to Knul) some sort of notification for a printer: leave this blanc.

They show up everywhere in the MS.

+++

EDIT:

Knul, I think you should edit this too:

30 HJU -TRAGD HELP TO LЄ [p. 134] NANDE ÆND WR
31 - ALDA SKIL JO KREFTA JЄVA - ÐЄR HIPÐ
32 HJU NЄI T KRYL-WOD - GRIPT ELSNE TRЄJON

Like NO-ID-EA said, it should be TRЄON.

Page 96 of the MS (scroll down to bottom of the page) :

http://images.tresoa...php?p=98&pm=212


.

Edited by Abramelin, 28 March 2013 - 09:25 PM.


#3225    Abramelin

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:28 PM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 28 March 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

You could look at it that way Knul , but you could also think it was possible that when it was copied because it was damaged in the 13th Century , he updated some of the letters/words to what was currently being used in his time , but missed a few V Vs, if he was saving it for future generations he could have changed quite a few  ancient words for ones being used in the 13th C , he may have thought if he left them as ancient versions , no one would understand them in a few years , perhaps this could explain why some think the language is too modern in a few cases . ??

From what I learned, the members of the family Over de Linden should COPY the ancient MS, not change it according to their whims.





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