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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#3406    Abramelin

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 01:15 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 07 April 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

See my answer in post #3402 - chicken or the egg until I can find more info for now.

hals...it never ends, lol - I'll check it out more.

You know who started the "to hnekka" instead of "tohnekka" thing?

Ottema, and Sandbach dutifully copied it.


#3407    Abramelin

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 01:21 PM

hal-s 50 und häufiger?, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Hals, Halsbuße, Leben, Mensch;
ne. neck (N.), loss of neck, life; ÜG.: lat. (collum) K 16; Vw.: s. frÆ-*, -bæt-e, -dæk,
-fa-n-g, -frÆ-a-inge, -gol-d, -kna-p-p*, -krÆg-a, -krÆg-e, -lam-ithe, -râ-f, -si-n-e, -si-n-ekerf,
-slêk, -wer-d-ene; Hw.: s. hal-s-e; vgl. got. hals*, an. hals, ae. heals, as. *hals?,
ahd. hals (1); Q.: H, W, R, B, S, F, E, K 16; E.: germ. *halsa-, *halsaz, st. M. (a),
Hals; idg. *kÝolso-, Sb., Hals, Pokorny 639; s. idg. *kÝel- (1), *kÝelý-, *kÝelh1-, V.,
drehen, sich drehen, sich bewegen, wohnen, Pokorny 639; vgl. idg. *kel- (1),
*kelý-, V., Adj., ragen, hoch, Falk/Torp 82, Pokorny 544?; W.: nfries. hals; W.:
saterl. hals;

http://koeblergerhar...rieswbhinw.html


You will see another old word for 'hals' show up, and it's 'keel' (pronounced 'keyhl' ).

We still use both words. We use 'nek' for the part under-behind your ears.
'Hals/keel' is the part below your chin.

(jeesh, lol).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 April 2013 - 01:24 PM.


#3408    Abramelin

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 01:32 PM

Men, o dvmhêd. Dâhwila wi to dvande send ekkorum to skâdane, kvmth-et nidige folk Findas mith hjara falska presterum jvw hâva to râwande, jvwa toghatera to skaendane, jvwa sêda to vrdva aend to tha lesta klaeppath hja slâvona banda om jahwelikes frya hals.

Sandbach:
O foolish people! while you are injuring each other the spiteful Finda’s people with their false priests come and attack your ports, ravish your daughters, corrupt your morals, and at last throw the bonds of slavery over every freeman’s neck.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#an

Puzz, as you can see, "hals" must mean 'neck' here.


=

And NO-ID-EA, here "slâvona" obviously means 'slaves'.

So we have a little problem here: Old Frisian for 'slave' is "skalk".


#3409    Abramelin

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 01:36 PM

And something like this find I prefer above dissecting words:

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=245911

I know, it was found in a very dry and arid climate, but still.


#3410    gestur

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:08 PM

On 25 October 2011, Poltergeist said:

Quote

It's remarkable that one-and-the-same word (undigerhéd) was translated in different ways (four by Sandbach, three by Ottema and Jensma):

...........Ottema (1872)......Jensma (2006)......Sandbach (1872)
p.099/04...zorgeloosheid......onzorgvuldigheid...carelessness
p.152/11...onvoorzichtigheid..onvoorzichtigheid..imprudence
p.161/02...onbezonnenheid.....onoplettendheid....inconsiderateness
p.203/19...onbezonnenheid.....onoplettendheid....thoughtlessness


Does anyone know a word from another language (English, German, Scandinavian?) that is moren similar to "undigerhéd"?

Quote

The word "DIGER" is used three times in the OLB, but the meaning does not become very clear.

[093/20]
ALLERA MÀNNELIK JEF TO AN MERY FRU ÀND BLÍDE
ÀND NINMAN NÉDE DIGER THAN TO ÁKANE SINA NOCHT.

[O+S p.131]
Iedereen gaf toe aan lustige vreugde en blijdschap,
en niemand had zorg dan zijn vermaak [genoegen] na te jagen.
everybody gave himself up to pleasure and merry-making,
and no one thought of anything but diversion

or more litterally:
All people gave in to merry frolic and bliss (or joy),
and no-one had care about anything but to seek pleasure.


[143/25]
MEN FRYA.S FOLK IS DIGER ÀND FLITICH.
HJA WRDON MOD NER WIRG
THRVCHDAM HJARA DOL TO THA BESTA LÉIDE.

[O+S p.195]
Maar Fryas volk is wakker en vlijtig,
zij werden moede noch mat,
omdat hun doel ten beste geleidde.
but Frya's people [are careful and diligent]
[they] were neither tired nor exhausted
when [since] they had a good object in view.


[154/27]
THACH SAND HI A.DEL NÉI THÉRE BURCH ET TEX.LAND
TIL THJU HI DIGER BI DIGER KVD WERTHA MACHTA.
MITH ELLA HWAT TO VSA ÉWA TÁLE ÀND SEDUM HÉRETH.

[O+S p.209]
[toch] zond hij toch Adel naar de burgt te Texland,
opdat hij hoe eer hoe beter bekend worden mocht
met alles wat tot onze wetten, taal en zeden behoort.
Jensma: "door en door zorgvuldig"; very carefully
[yet] he sent Adel to the citadel of Texland
in order to make himself better acquainted
with our laws, language, and customs.


This is yet another example of how - even in Dutch - translation is not always easy.

It shows that Knul's statement, that OLB is just a word-for-word translation of a Dutch text, can not be right.

Richthofen (1840)
diger (treu, sorgsam): 'ende by da lena ursumeth, dat hi ne naet dygher urwerrie, also dygher so dy mynscha selm pligit to bywarien' Jur.2,28 und 'hweerso een wyff her kynd naet habbe bywareth myt aller digerheyt' (sorgsamkeit) Jur.2,168. Isl. dygger (fidus). Vgl. te deghe (integre) bei Kilian 103.

Related to DIGER are the Dutch words "degelijk" and "terdege".
gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 1
gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 2
gtb.inl.nl/terdege

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#3411    The Puzzler

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:57 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 April 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

hal-s 50 und häufiger?, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Hals, Halsbuße, Leben, Mensch;
ne. neck (N.), loss of neck, life; ÜG.: lat. (collum) K 16; Vw.: s. frÆ-*, -bæt-e, -dæk,
-fa-n-g, -frÆ-a-inge, -gol-d, -kna-p-p*, -krÆg-a, -krÆg-e, -lam-ithe, -râ-f, -si-n-e, -si-n-ekerf,
-slêk, -wer-d-ene; Hw.: s. hal-s-e; vgl. got. hals*, an. hals, ae. heals, as. *hals?,
ahd. hals (1); Q.: H, W, R, B, S, F, E, K 16; E.: germ. *halsa-, *halsaz, st. M. (a),
Hals; idg. *kÝolso-, Sb., Hals, Pokorny 639; s. idg. *kÝel- (1), *kÝelý-, *kÝelh1-, V.,
drehen, sich drehen, sich bewegen, wohnen, Pokorny 639; vgl. idg. *kel- (1),
*kelý-, V., Adj., ragen, hoch, Falk/Torp 82, Pokorny 544?; W.: nfries. hals; W.:
saterl. hals;

http://koeblergerhar...rieswbhinw.html


You will see another old word for 'hals' show up, and it's 'keel' (pronounced 'keyhl' ).

We still use both words. We use 'nek' for the part under-behind your ears.
'Hals/keel' is the part below your chin.

(jeesh, lol).

.

OK fair enough - I missed that somehow - hals is neck, but that doesn't mean hnekka isn't also neck, used in different context maybe.

I see the difference - hals is your THROAT part of your neck and hnekka is your NAPE (back of your neck) - so really describing parts of your neck.

Edited by The Puzzler, 07 April 2013 - 03:06 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3412    gestur

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:59 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 07 April 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

OK fair enough - hals is neck, but that doesn't mean hnekka isn't also neck, used in different context maybe.

Indeed, there are many examples of different words having (almost) the same meaning in OLB, as in any language.

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#3413    Abramelin

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:04 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 07 April 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

OK fair enough - hals is neck, but that doesn't mean hnekka isn't also neck, used in different context maybe.

But the word is used nowhere in the OLB, only in a combination (if that's what it really is): tohnekka.

And that was Ottema's idea, probably based on the old form "hnekka" for neck he had read in an Old Frisian dictionary.

I can imagine that TOHNEKKA is nothing but the way they pronounced TUNICA ("tonekka").





.


#3414    The Puzzler

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:09 PM

View Postgestur, on 07 April 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

On 25 October 2011, Poltergeist said:




Richthofen (1840)
diger (treu, sorgsam): 'ende by da lena ursumeth, dat hi ne naet dygher urwerrie, also dygher so dy mynscha selm pligit to bywarien' Jur.2,28 und 'hweerso een wyff her kynd naet habbe bywareth myt aller digerheyt' (sorgsamkeit) Jur.2,168. Isl. dygger (fidus). Vgl. te deghe (integre) bei Kilian 103.

Related to DIGER are the Dutch words "degelijk" and "terdege".
gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 1
gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 2
gtb.inl.nl/terdege

I think I said 'undignified' at the time but that was only based on the sound of the word.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3415    The Puzzler

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:11 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 April 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

But the word is used nowhere in the OLB, only in a combination (if that's what it really is): tohnekka.

And that was Ottema's idea, probably based on the old form "hnekka" for neck he had read in an Old Frisian dictionary.

I can imagine that TOHNEKKA is nothing but the way they pronounced TUNICA ("tonekka").





.

Could be the context of your NAPE of your neck was less common that the use in context of your THROAT, which alluded to death, end of life, slit your throat. Nape may have only been used in a few words, maybe only one, to-hnekka  Therefore it became common usage to use hals for your neck, rather than nape, even though the word neck stems from the nape meaning. English language doesn't use it although it was heals but we use neck and nape.

In neck I noticed this meaning: The part of a shirt, dress etc., which fits a person's neck.

tohnekka may have to do with going over ones head, around your neck, rather than being a length meaning.

Edited by The Puzzler, 07 April 2013 - 03:21 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3416    Abramelin

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:55 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 07 April 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

Could be the context of your NAPE of your neck was less common that the use in context of your THROAT, which alluded to death, end of life, slit your throat. Nape may have only been used in a few words, maybe only one, to-hnekka  Therefore it became common usage to use hals for your neck, rather than nape, even though the word neck stems from the nape meaning. English language doesn't use it although it was heals but we use neck and nape.

In neck I noticed this meaning: The part of a shirt, dress etc., which fits a person's neck.

tohnekka may have to do with going over ones head, around your neck, rather than being a length meaning.


I think I'm going to dream of 'tohnekkas' tonight , lol.

-

But Ottema (and thus Sandbach) suggested it meant something like "to(wards) the neck", not around the neck.

Anyway, i have tried to find what 'tunica' is in other languages, but they all use 'tunica' or 'tunika' or a very similar form.

Only the Italians have another form: "tonaca" :

tonaca f (plural tonache)

    habit (monk's clothing)


http://en.wiktionary.../tonaca#Italian

This is what Google images gives me for 'tonaca':
Posted Image

Doesn't look much like monk's clothing.


#3417    The Puzzler

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:01 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 April 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Men, o dvmhêd. Dâhwila wi to dvande send ekkorum to skâdane, kvmth-et nidige folk Findas mith hjara falska presterum jvw hâva to râwande, jvwa toghatera to skaendane, jvwa sêda to vrdva aend to tha lesta klaeppath hja slâvona banda om jahwelikes frya hals.

Sandbach:
O foolish people! while you are injuring each other the spiteful Finda’s people with their false priests come and attack your ports, ravish your daughters, corrupt your morals, and at last throw the bonds of slavery over every freeman’s neck.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#an

Puzz, as you can see, "hals" must mean 'neck' here.


=

And NO-ID-EA, here "slâvona" obviously means 'slaves'.

So we have a little problem here: Old Frisian for 'slave' is "skalk".

skalk is more like skulk, which is a person who is doing a bad thing, skulking around, lurking - a servant waiting in the shadows... but I see slave there in the Frisian dictionary.

Then I was thinking of another word, that might sound like slave but not be slave, thinking of slovenly. The associated words bring to mind words that might be used for slaves. Nothing solid but just a thought.
slovenly (adj.) Posted Image 1510s, "low, base, lewd," later "untidy, dirty" (1560s), from sloven + -ly (1).
sloven (n.) Posted Image mid-15c., "immoral woman," later also "rascal, knave" (regardless of gender); probably from Middle Flemish sloovin "a scold," related to sloef "untidy, shabby," from Proto-Germanic *slup- (cf. Dutch slof "careless, negligent") http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

Another example where the word slave might have a different root meaning to what we know - so it could be a meaning for slave - but not connect to what we know as slave etymology.

Anyway, slaves and tohnekkas, I'm probably gonna have some scary Planet of the Apes dream or something, must sleep, goodnight.

Edited by The Puzzler, 07 April 2013 - 04:07 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#3418    Abramelin

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 04:45 PM

LOL, good night, Puzz.

I think the next is the post plausible origin of the word "slave" (and take note of the bolded dates):

slave (n.)
late 13c., "person who is the property of another," from Old French esclave (13c.), from Medieval Latin Sclavus "slave" (cf. Italian schiavo, French esclave, Spanish esclavo), originally "Slav" (see Slav), so called because of the many Slavs sold into slavery by conquering peoples.

"This sense development arose in the consequence of the wars waged by Otto the Great and his successors against the Slavs, a great number of whom they took captive and sold into slavery. [Klein]"


http://www.etymonlin....php?term=slave

Slav
late 14c., Sclave, from Medieval Latin Sclavus (c.800), from Byzantine Greek Sklabos (c.580), from Old Church Slavonic Sloveninu "a Slav," probably related to slovo "word, speech," which suggests the name originally meant member of a speech community (cf. Old Church Slavonic Nemici "Germans," related to nemu "dumb;" and cf. Old English þeode, which meant both "race" and "language").

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0


The final copy of the OLB was supposedly written in 1256 CE.


#3419    Abramelin

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:03 PM

Like Puzz, I have read here and there that the Latin "tunica" is probably a loanword from the Etruscan language.

But I couldn't find anything more about it.

Is it just based on some Etruscan wall painting of clothing resembling a Roman tunica, or is it based on some word in the Etruscan language?


#3420    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:33 PM

View Postgestur, on 07 April 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

On 25 October 2011, Poltergeist said:




Richthofen (1840)
diger (treu, sorgsam): 'ende by da lena ursumeth, dat hi ne naet dygher urwerrie, also dygher so dy mynscha selm pligit to bywarien' Jur.2,28 und 'hweerso een wyff her kynd naet habbe bywareth myt aller digerheyt' (sorgsamkeit) Jur.2,168. Isl. dygger (fidus). Vgl. te deghe (integre) bei Kilian 103.

Related to DIGER are the Dutch words "degelijk" and "terdege".
gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 1
gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 2
gtb.inl.nl/terdege

If i could have read Poltergeists post in 2011 , i would have replied the word undigerhed reminds me of undignified same as puzzler , i was also into Sumerian transcriptions at the time , and may have mentioned the sumerian word Dinger , for Royalty or nobility . maybe same conotation  ? un-noble,


from the etymology text i read Hals means more specifically Collar , still relating to neck , as in collar bone , and collar of a shirt , but also poss as an iron collar for a slave , and therfore poss related to a tourniquet , cable-tow ( freemasons still wear one at an initiation  by the way ) or a noose .





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