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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#3496    Othar Winis

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:27 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 April 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

11th century....

What do you mean?
That the word was invented by the one who wrote it down in the oldest known, saved (accepted) source?

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#3497    Abramelin

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:32 PM

View Postgestur, on 11 April 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

What do you mean?
That the word was invented by the one who wrote it down in the oldest known, saved (accepted) source?

No, that the 11th century source is the oldest source we know of.


#3498    Abramelin

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:50 PM

Bastarnae

The origin of the tribal name is uncertain. One possible derivation is from the proto-Germanic word *bastjan (from Proto-Indo-European root word *bhas) means "binding" or "tie". In this case, Bastarnae may have had the original meaning of an alliance or bund of tribes. It is possible that the Roman term basterna, denoting a type of wagon or litter, is derived from the name of this tribe, which was known, like many Germanic tribes, to travel with a wagon-train for their families. Trubačev proposes a derivation from Old Persian, Avestan bast- "bound, tied; slave" (cf. Ossetic bættən "bind", bast "bound") and Iranian *arna- "offspring", equating it with the δουλόσποροι "slave Sporoi" mentioned by Nonnus and Cosmas, where Sporoi is the people Procopius mentions as the ancestors of the Slavs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae


For the Dutch among us:

3. Kluge-Mitzka 55 nemen aan, dat ofra [Old Frankish]. bast ‘gemengd huwelijk’ [mixed marriage] uit het germ. zou stammen, waarop de naam van de stam der Bastarnen zou wijzen, die zich zeer met andere volkeren vermengd hadden. (Tacitus, Germania c. 46). Maar deze hypothese van R. Much onderstelt een nergens overgeleverd germ. woord *bast met deze betekenis, die dan weer uit de naam van de stam afgeleid wordt.

http://www.etymologi...fwoord/bastaard

""Mixed marriage" is the explanation, but not a very convincing one.


#3499    Othar Winis

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:07 AM

The answer is BAST (bark, peel, husk) of a ('family') tree.
The least valuable part of a tree (or nut), that what peels off easily.

[167/29]
BY VS WERTHAT NOCHTA FONDEN LIK BERN HÁVEDA SA GRÁT.
THÉR SIT TSÍS ÀND MELOK IN.
WERTHAT SE ALD
SA MÁKTH MÀN THER OLJA FON. ~
FON THA BASTUM MÁKTH MÀN TÁW
ÀND FON THA KERNUM
MÁKTH MÀN CHELKA ÀND OR GERÁD.

Ottema-Sandbach p.227

Bij ons worden noten gevonden zoo groot als kinderhoofden;
daar zit kaas en melk in;
worden ze oud
dan maakt men er olie van;
van de bast maakt men touw,
en van de kernen
maakt men kelken en ander huisraad.

In our country there are nuts as large as a child's head.
They contain cheese and milk.
When they are old
oil is made from them.
Of the husks ropes are made,
and of the shells
cups and other household utensils are made.

M. Philippa e.a. (2003-2009) Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands
http://www.etymologi.../trefwoord/bast

Quote

bast zn. ‘binnenste boomschors’
Mnl. bast ‘schors’ in de uitdrukking niet een bast ‘volstrekt niet’ [1290; CG II, En.Cod.],
bast ‘boomschors’ [1340-60; MNW-R];
vnnl. van schorsse oft bast van Boecke-boomen ‘van schors of bast van beukebomen’ [1628; WNT].
Os. bast,
ohd. bast (mhd. bast, nhd. Bast);
nfri. bast;
oe. bæst ‘binnenste boomschors waar touw van wordt gemaakt’ (me. bast ‘binnenste schors van de linde’ [1296]; ne. bast);
on. bast (nzw. bast);
< pgm. *basta- ‘schors’;
bij deze wortel ook → bastion.

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...&lemmodern=bast

Quote

Ook in den zin van iets van volstrekt geene waarde; in de uitdrukkingen:
— Niet een (enen) bast, volstrekt niets, geen zier.
Ook mhd. niht ein bast; mnd. nicht en bast. Verg. De Jager, Lat. Versch. 104 vlgg.
Weet wel, dat die van binnen waren dicke geëssalgiert sonder sparen, maer sine achtens niet enen bast, Lanc. II, 33803, Vlaanderen, 1315-1330.
Maer sijn casteel es so vast, dat hi om niemanne geeft een bast, III, 23593, Vlaanderen, 1315-1330.
Hine gave doer Gode niet enen bast, wie sere dat ieman hadde noet, OVl. Ged. 1, 79, 405.
Bedi wille hi een huus maken also vast, dat hi niet gave enen bast, al quamer die coninc selve voren, Ren. 656, Holland/Vlaanderen/Brabant, 1340-1360.
[... etc.]
=> So BAST also meant something of lesser value.
Metaphorically, from the peel of a tree or nut.

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#3500    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:49 AM

In this very long thread , parts one and two , i expect you have had many conversations about whether the Tresoar copy is the original 13th C copy  or not , and also on the page numbering , as it seems page 4 , is not the reverse side of page 3 etc ........have any of you kept a note of where you discussed these questions , so i can go back and read them , and not go over things you have already discussed.

it has always seemed lucky/weird , that in the Okke min sunne letter , that the writing on both sides of the page starts under the torn part of the page , as if it was originally written on a damaged leaf ??

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 12 April 2013 - 09:56 AM.


#3501    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:02 AM

"Het meest aannemelijk is dat het terug gaat op Italiaans bast.ardo 'wilde loot' bij Latijn bastum 'staaf, stok', dat overdrachtelijk staat voor 'buitenechtelijk kind'. Cognaten: Oudfries  basterd, Ontlening uit Frans bast.ard ‘onwettig kind’.

The most plausible is that it goes back to Italian bast.ardo 'wild (off)shoot' in Latin bastum 'rod, stick', which metaphorically stands for "illegitimate child". Cognates: Old Frisian bast.ard, Borrowing from French bast.ard 'illegitimate child'.


(dot inside word added by me)

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...db=ONW&id=ID739


Gestur, you did't explain where the -ard part came from.

-ard
also -art, from Old French -ard, -art, from German -hard, -hart "hardy," forming the second element in many personal names, often used as an intensifier, but in Middle High German and Dutch used as a pejorative element in common nouns, and thus passing into Middle English in bast.ard, coward, blaffard ("one who stammers"), etc. It thus became a living element in English, e.g. buzzard, drunkard.

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 April 2013 - 10:03 AM.


#3502    Othar Winis

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:13 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 April 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Gestur, you did't explain where the -ard part came from.

It was a quicky, right after I had woken up.

View Postgestur, on 11 April 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

VRBASTERA SVNUM - degenerate (bastardised) sons (1)
VRBASTERE STÉDJAR - degenerate townspeople (5)
VRBASTERDE SLACHT - degenerate race (6)
VRBASTERDE FOLK - degenerate race/ people (15)

VNFORBASTERE SÉD - unbastardised (pure) morals (10)
VNFORBASTERE BERN - unbastardised children (11)

BÁSTERA BERN - ba$t@rd children (4)
BASTRED FOLK - ba$t@rd race/ people (13)

BASTERD BLOD - ba$t@rd/ mixed blood (2,8)
BASTERDE BLOD - idem (3)
FON BASTERDE BLODE - of mixed blood (9)

SIND BASTERED - are (have been) mixed/ degenerated (7,12)
HÀVON BASTRED - have degenerated (14)

noun:
BAST (bark, peel, husk, skin)

verb:
BASTERA - basteren? (to peel off?)
VR.BASTERA, FOR.BASTERA - verbasteren (bastardise, degenerate)

past perfect, adjective, noun:
BASTERED, BASTRED (bastardised, degenerated)
VNFORBASTERE (unbastardised, pure)

==>> so, while it is indeed compelling to think in the direction of Bast-aard (aard = nature, character, kind, personality), I think it is rather from past perfect, that turned into adjective and noun.

Similar to:
versluieren - versluierd
afpoeieren - afgepoeierd
verkankeren - verkankerd
etc.
(ver-)basteren - (ver-)basterd

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#3503    Othar Winis

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:31 PM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 12 April 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

[...] conversations about whether the Tresoar copy is the original 13th C copy  or not

I don't remember a discussion about that.
Personally, I don't have any reason to believe that the Tresoar copy is NOT the original 13th C. copy.

Quote

and also on the page numbering , as it seems page 4 , is not the reverse side of page 3 etc

Page 3 was photographed with other pages under it, so one has to look close to see that it is actually the reverse side of page 4.

Quote

it has always seemed lucky/weird , that in the Okke min sunne letter , that the writing on both sides of the page starts under the torn part of the page , as if it was originally written on a damaged leaf ??

Interesting observation.
Yes, that makes sense.

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#3504    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:45 PM

View Postgestur, on 12 April 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

It was a quicky, right after I had woken up.



noun:
BAST (bark, peel, husk, skin)

verb:
BASTERA - basteren? (to peel off?)
VR.BASTERA, FOR.BASTERA - verbasteren (bastardise, degenerate)

past perfect, adjective, noun:
BASTERED, BASTRED (bastardised, degenerated)
VNFORBASTERE (unbastardised, pure)

==>> so, while it is indeed compelling to think in the direction of Bast-aard (aard = nature, character, kind, personality), I think it is rather from past perfect, that turned into adjective and noun.

Similar to:
versluieren - versluierd
afpoeieren - afgepoeierd
verkankeren - verkankerd
etc.
(ver-)basteren - (ver-)basterd

Your examples are past participles.

The -ard suffix in my former post suggests a pejorative element in common nouns


#3505    Othar Winis

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:53 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 April 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

The -ard suffix in my former post suggests a pejorative element in common nouns

Can you explain in Dutch what your point is?

---

perhaps conform MOST - MOSTERD?

Quote

mosterd zn. ‘kruiderij uit zaad van een mosterdplant (Sinapis alba of Brassica nigra)’
Mnl. mostard, mostart, mostert in mostart “sinapis” (mosterdplant) [1240; Bern.], asyne mostarde ende casen ‘azijn, mosterd en kaas’ [1286; VMNW]; vnnl. mostaerd ‘mosterd’ [1562; Naembouck], mostaert oft sennep ‘mosterd’ [1573; Thes.], mostert ‘sterke kruiderij’ [ca. 1615; WNT]; vnnl. zo mengt men mosterd onder de saus ‘dan mengt men mosterd door de saus’ [1746; WNT wijnazijn].
Ontleend aan Oudfrans mostarde ‘kruiderij van geplette mosterdzaden met azijn of wijnmost’ (Nieuwfrans moutarde), afleiding van Oudfrans most ‘ongegist druivensap, jonge wijn’ (Nieuwfrans moût) < Latijn mustum. De mosterd is dus niet genoemd naar de grondstof waaruit, maar naar de most waarmee hij bereid werd. Ook Nederlands most ‘ongegist druivensap’ [1608; WNT] is via Oudfrans most ontleend aan Latijn mustum ‘id.’.
Latijn mustum ‘ongegist druivensap, jonge wijn’ is de onzijdige vorm van mustus ‘vers, nieuw’, van verder onbekende herkomst.
In de Belgische dialecten komt nog steeds de oorspr. vorm mostaard voor, met niet-verdofte -aa-.
Er bestaan ook namen die via Frans sénevé ‘mosterd(plant)’, sanve ‘wilde mosterd’ wel teruggaan op de naam van de Zuid-Europese mosterdplant, Latijn sinapis: verouderd en dialectisch Nederlands zennep, Middelnederlands senep, sennep [ca. 1460; MNW], Oudengels senep, Duits Senf, Zweeds senap, Gotisch (gen.) sinapis.
http://etymologieban...efwoord/mosterd

Edited by gestur, 12 April 2013 - 01:54 PM.

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#3506    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:11 PM

Your -aard, -ard, or -erd (last post) means: 'with the characteristic(s) of'

The examples in your former to last post were past participles.

My -ard is from

-ard
also -art, from Old French -ard, -art, from German -hard, -hart "hardy," forming the second element in many personal names, often used as an intensifier, but in Middle High German and Dutch used as a pejorative element in common nouns, and thus passing into Middle English in bast.ard, coward, blaffard ("one who stammers"), etc. It thus became a living element in English, e.g. buzzard, drunkard.


The -erd in 'mosterd' has nothing to do with being pejorative, unfavorable.


#3507    Othar Winis

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:36 PM

I can easily imagine similar words from dialect (uncivilised dutch) like:
denkerd, goeierd, knapperd, bangert, kijkerd, lopert, etc.

As you can see, not all pejorative and some derived from nouns.

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#3508    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:29 PM

View Postgestur, on 12 April 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

I don't remember a discussion about that.
Personally, I don't have any reason to believe that the Tresoar copy is NOT the original 13th C. copy.



Page 3 was photographed with other pages under it, so one has to look close to see that it is actually the reverse side of page 4.



Interesting observation.
Yes, that makes sense.

Ok , Yes i can see what you mean , it only looks different because of the sheet underneath.................do you think the same is true though of  page 100-27 and 100-28  which looks to me as though 100-41 and 100-42 look better matches . ??

Also re the tresour copy being an original .. i only ask because , if you go to tresour pagina 196 ,( ie not oera linda page no this time ) where they just show a copy of the book on an old scribes table , the copy of the book looks like the paper is much whiter , and it may be an optical illusion , but the pages also look narrower and longer than on the next page .....what do you think.


#3509    Abramelin

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:59 PM

View Postgestur, on 12 April 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

I can easily imagine similar words from dialect (uncivilised dutch) like:
denkerd, goeierd, knapperd, bangert, kijkerd, lopert, etc.

As you can see, not all pejorative and some derived from nouns.

Yes, and all ending with -erd, not -ard or -aard.


#3510    Othar Winis

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:44 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 April 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Yes, and all ending with -erd, not -ard or -aard.

There is no difference.

You should read more old texts to find out how variable spelling always has been until quite recently.

Quote

mosterd ... mostard, mostart, mostert ... mostarde ... mostaerd ... afleiding van Oudfrans most ‘...
In de Belgische dialecten komt nog steeds de oorspr. vorm mostaard voor...

Summary

The verb to bastardise and the noun basterd (-ard) are derived from BAST (bark, peel, husk, skin)

See here , here and here.

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com




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