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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#4111    Mario Dantas

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:20 PM

Has someone already mentioned the word "solder"?

Quote

Solder (/ˈsldə/,[1] /ˈsɒldə/[1] or sometimes in USA /ˈsɒdər/[2]) is a fusible metal alloy used to join together metal workpieces and having a melting point below that of the workpiece(s).

Quote

Alloys of lead and tin were universally used in the past, and are still available; they are particularly convenient for hand-soldering. Lead-free solder, somewhat less convenient for hand-soldering, is often used to avoid the environmental effect of lead.

Plumbers often use bars of solder, much thicker than the wire used for electrical applications. Jewelers often use solder in thin sheets which they cut into snippets.
The word solder comes from the Middle English word soudur, via Old French solduree and soulder, from the Latin solidare, meaning "to make solid".[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder

Edited by Mario Dantas, 20 June 2013 - 09:48 PM.

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#4112    Abramelin

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:48 AM

Which Latin verb do you think is the most likely source for the Dutch word for soldier, "soldaat":

solidare "to make solid, or soldāre "to hire someone for money" ?


#4113    The Puzzler

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 12:47 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 20 June 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

Following the OLB language, "salt-atha" can only mean "salt friends", and to me that is just a poor attempt of etymology.


.

You keep insisting this yet I think you are wrong.
The OLB has not given any etymology.

The word atha is used in a translation as friend - but the word friend is also used in the OLB - indicating that perhaps 'friend' also as atha is incorrect - or at least a different form of ' friend'  as should be viewed as such in the term salt-atha. Otherwise it would say salt-freonds since this word is friend in the OLB.

The translation gives atha as friends - not the OLB language. The OLB language gives atha as a word that indicates a type of friend, the word atha may have fallen out of use now, so the true meaning of an oath-friend has been lost and obscured by the word friend in general, which shares no etymology with atha at all.

This is why, in both uses of it - in Athens and as soldiers, the term is more in line with an oath/ally/pact type friend, rather than a pal/mate/friend.

Edited by The Puzzler, 21 June 2013 - 12:49 PM.

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#4114    The Puzzler

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:25 PM

Kind of an interesting article:

Weinfeld has pointed out that not
only was there a shared terminology for making treaties in
Akkadian, Hittite, Hebrew, Aramaic and Phoenician, but that
similar terms were used by the Greeks and Romans.  Among these
terms are various words for cut, sometimes occurring in idiomatic
combinations, such as "to cut an oath" in Phoenician and in
Homeric Greek (1973).

http://www.csub.edu/...es/cut-deal.txt

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#4115    The Puzzler

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:34 PM

salt-atha - just because it's been TRANSLATED as soldier does not mean the word ever was nor is even related to soldier.

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#4116    Abramelin

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:02 PM

Sandbach, following Ottema's translation, translated "âtha" into 'friends', but like I already said, I couldn't find any (online) confirmation that it is the right translation.


Known Old Frisian words for 'friend' are "friænd" and "wine" (pron: weenuh) (think of Alewyn):
http://koeblergerhar...ries_tg_ne.html


Some quotes from the OLB:

Vppa rêd Minervas waerth hju Athenia heten: hwand sêide hju, tha aefter kvmand agon to wêtane, that wi hir navt thrvch lest ner weld kvmen send, men lik âtha vntfongen.
By the advice of Min-erva it was called Athens, because, she said, those who come after us ought to know that we are not here by cunning or violence, but were received as friends


Adel was-ne minlika skalk, bi sin fâra heth-er fêlo âtha wnnen. Dâna is-t kvmen thaet et folk him Atha-rik hêten heth,
Adel was an amiable young man, and in his travels he made many friends, so the people called him Atharik [rich in friends]


But here Ottema (and thus Sandbach) had a bit of a problem:

7. Lêt maen hja aefternêi hlâpa, sâ lêt maen thaet mith welhêd thrvch tha fâmna dva, til thju wi âtha aend frjunda winna fori lêtha aend fyandun.
7. If they are afterwards set free, it must be done with kindness by the maidens, in order that we may make them comrades and friends, instead of haters and enemies.


None of the quotes suggest anything with 'oath'.

And they translated "salt-atha" into 'soldiers', maybe just because it had everything to do with war, battle, fight and so on.

+++

EDIT:

Btw, in the 2d quote, about Adel, "skalk" is translated into "young man", but in reality it means serf, servant, slave ; villain. I think it should mean 'rascal'. I had to think of 'Del Boy' from the British series "Only Fools and Horses", lol.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 June 2013 - 02:18 PM.


#4117    Abramelin

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:31 PM

From the last quote in my former post I conclude that "âtha" is the opposite of 'hater'.

Something like 'buddy'.


#4118    The Puzzler

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:38 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 21 June 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Sandbach, following Ottema's translation, translated "âtha" into 'friends', but like I already said, I couldn't find any (online) confirmation that it is the right translation.


Known Old Frisian words for 'friend' are "friænd" and "wine" (pron: weenuh) (think of Alewyn):
http://koeblergerhar...ries_tg_ne.html


Some quotes from the OLB:

Vppa rêd Minervas waerth hju Athenia heten: hwand sêide hju, tha aefter kvmand agon to wêtane, that wi hir navt thrvch lest ner weld kvmen send, men lik âtha vntfongen.
By the advice of Min-erva it was called Athens, because, she said, those who come after us ought to know that we are not here by cunning or violence, but were received as friends


Adel was-ne minlika skalk, bi sin fâra heth-er fêlo âtha wnnen. Dâna is-t kvmen thaet et folk him Atha-rik hêten heth,
Adel was an amiable young man, and in his travels he made many friends, so the people called him Atharik [rich in friends]


But here Ottema (and thus Sandbach) had a bit of a problem:

7. Lêt maen hja aefternêi hlâpa, sâ lêt maen thaet mith welhêd thrvch tha fâmna dva, til thju wi âtha aend frjunda winna fori lêtha aend fyandun.
7. If they are afterwards set free, it must be done with kindness by the maidens, in order that we may make them comrades and friends, instead of haters and enemies.


None of the quotes suggest anything with 'oath'.

And they translated "salt-atha" into 'soldiers', maybe just because it had everything to do with war, battle, fight and so on.

+++

EDIT:

Btw, in the 2d quote, about Adel, "skalk" is translated into "young man", but in reality it means serf, servant, slave ; villain. I think it should mean 'rascal'. I had to think of 'Del Boy' from the British series "Only Fools and Horses", lol.

.
I also said I couldn't find anything but in Frisian the word atha is clear to me in all forms from eth to âth - so to me the meaning of âtha is clearly in this word. In English this word is very common, did you see the 2 Aussie slang examples Wiki gave? lol It's used in place of 'yes'  a lot.  do you wanna go to the pub? "f-ing oath" - like that...

Seems steeped in Old Saxon too, which is even more reason to think it's the word used for âtha - the point is - the word means friends in a taking oath kind of way is my interpretation of it - so true, seems the word friends could be used for âtha but in reality if this was a word it's etymology and meaning would be steeped in this usage.

It's totally Germanic, did not come from Latin and would be a word used in the Fryan language. The flimsy example of proto they give seems ridiculous, imo there is no reason this word was not eth or âth or even ed to start with. The Eddas would also be a form of this word IMO even though they give this mish-mash of guesses:   (I'm sure Snorri chose a Latin word to name the work, NOT!)

There are several theories concerning the origins of the word edda. One theory holds that it is identical to a word that means "great-grandmother" appearing in the Eddic poem Rígsþula.[1] Another theory holds that edda derives from Old Norse óðr, "poetry." A third, proposed in 1895 by Eiríkr Magnússon, but since discredited, is that it derives from the Icelandic place name Oddi, site of the church and school where students, including Snorri Sturluson, were educated.[2] The derivation of the word "Edda" as the name of Snorri Sturluson’s treatise on poetry from the Latin "edo", "I compose (poetry)" by analogy with "kredda", "superstition" from Latin "credo", "creed" is now widely accepted.


êth 200 und häufiger, âth, ê-th, â-th, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Eid; ne. oath (N.); ÜG.: lat. iūrāmentum L 4, L 5, L 7, L 18, L 10, L 14, AB (82, 2), AB (82, 7); Vw.: s. bō-del-, dē-d-, fiā-, fog-id-, fre-th-o-, ful-l-, hand-, lê-d-, mê-n-, mendz-ing-, strī-d-, twe-lev-a-, wed-d-, wī-th-, wi-ther-, wrō-g-e-, -spil, -strī-d, -swar-a, -swer-inge, -to-ch-t; Hw.: vgl. got. aiþs*, an. eiðr, ae. āþ, as. êth*, ahd. eid; Q.: R, B, E, F, H, S, W, L 4, L 5, L 7, L 18, L 10, L 14, AB (82, 2), AB (82, 7); E.: germ. *aiþa-, *aiþaz, *aida-, *aidaz, st. M. (a), Eid; s. idg. *ai- (5), *oi-, Sb., bedeutsame Rede (?), Pokorny 11?; idg. *oito-, Sb., Weg, Pokorny 293; idg. *eidʰ-, V., gehen, Pokorny 295; idg. *ei- (1), *h₁ei-, V., gehen, Pokorny 293, Kluge s. u. Eid; W.: nfries. eed; W.: nnordfries. ith, iss; L.: Hh 22a, Rh 717b
êtha (1) 1 und häufiger, ê-th-a, afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. Eideshelfer, Eidhelfer; ne. compurgator; Vw.: s. even-; Hw.: s. a-th-th-a; E.: s. ê-th; L.: Hh 22a
êtha (2) 1, ê-th-a, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. beeidigen?, beschwören?, vereidigen; ne. testify an oath; Hw.: vgl. ahd. eidōn; Q.: W; E.: s. ê-th; L.: Hh 22a, Hh 155, Rh 719b
*-ethe, afries., F., Suff.: Vw.: s. *-ithe

Old Saxon

Alternative forms
Etymology

From Proto-Germanic *aiþaz, whence also Old English āþ, Old Frisian ēth, Old High German eid, Old Norse eiðr, Gothic �������� (aiþs). Ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *oyt-.
Noun

eth m

Edited by The Puzzler, 21 June 2013 - 02:52 PM.

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#4119    Abramelin

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:50 PM

Your links to the Aussie slang were dead. Click on them, and you'll know.

And now try to get that "oath" work in the OLB examples  I posted.


#4120    The Puzzler

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:05 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 21 June 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Your links to the Aussie slang were dead. Click on them, and you'll know.

And now try to get that "oath" work in the OLB examples  I posted.

I can't replace atha with oath but maybe with oather if it was a word that once existed, meaning a person who was a friend by oath.

As you showed the 2 words show in one sentence:

comrades is used for atha there - because again, it's not a 'friend' as such but an oath-friend - friends is based in free/love - more like because you love or care for each other - with no strings attached, atha has strings, alliance, pacts, treaties oaths and the like.

til thju wi âtha aend frjunda

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#4121    The Puzzler

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:14 PM

Greek tradition c.400 BCE

Walter Burkert has shown that since Lycurgus of Athens (d. 324 BCE), who held that "it is the oath which holds democracy together", religion, morality and political organization had been linked by the oath, and the oath and its prerequisite altar had become the basis of both civil and criminal, as well as international law.Burkert, Greek Religion, trans. Raffan, Harvard University Press (1985), 250ff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath

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#4122    Abramelin

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:28 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 21 June 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

I can't replace atha with oath but maybe with oather if it was a word that once existed, meaning a person who was a friend by oath.

As you showed the 2 words show in one sentence:

comrades is used for atha there - because again, it's not a 'friend' as such but an oath-friend - friends is based in free/love - more like because you love or care for each other - with no strings attached, atha has strings, alliance, pacts, treaties oaths and the like.

til thju wi âtha aend frjunda

The quote about how Athens got its name according to the OLB proves you wrong. The Fryans were strangers in Greece, but they got a very friendly welcome, like they were old friends.

What does that have to do with any "oath"?

=

About "comrade":


comrade (n.)
1590s, "one who shares the same room," from Middle French camarade (16c.), from Spanish camarada "chamber mate," originally "chamberful," from Latin camera (see camera).

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

It's like a pal, a buddy, someone you trust and share a room with.  Just another word for 'friend'.

Nothing to do with any "oath".

I don't know how things go in Australia, but when I meet someone I trust and like, I won't ask him/her to swear on the Bible before they become my friend, buddy, pal, whatever.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 June 2013 - 03:39 PM.


#4123    Mario Dantas

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:39 PM

Abramelin,

View PostAbramelin, on 21 June 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

Which Latin verb do you think is the most likely source for the Dutch word for soldier, "soldaat":

solidare "to make solid, or soldāre "to hire someone for money" ?

I actually don´t know for sure, but in my opinion, the word solidare "to make solid" is the probable source for soldier, or soldaat, in Dutch, as you have mentioned, in the sense that we could perhaps link it to the manufacture of arms or other metal implements. The term salt atha, i think would be derived not from the word salt itself but from solder or soldering:

Quote

There is evidence that soldering was employed as early as 5000 years ago in Mesopotamia.[1] Soldering and brazing are thought to have arisen very early in the history of metal-working, probably before 4000 BCE [2]. Sumerian swords from ~3000 BCE were assembled using hard soldering.

Soldering was historically used to make jewelry items, cooking ware and tools, as well as other uses such as in assembling stained glass.
https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Soldering




Could the word for the Etruscan god of fire, Sethlans, which is linked to Vulcan and Hephaestus, be in any way connected too?

Quote

In Etruscan mythology, Sethlans was the god of fire, the forge, metalworking, and by extension craftsmanship in general, the equivalent, though their names share no etymology, toGreekHephaestus and the Roman Vulcan. Sethlans is one of the indigenous Etruscan gods. In Etruscan arts Sethlans may be identified by his tools, the hammer and tongs of the blacksmith, and by the pileus or conical cap he wears.
http://en.wikipedia....ans_(mythology)

Quote

The craft of Hephaestus

Hephaestus had his own palace on Olympus, containing his workshop with anvil and twenty bellows that worked at his bidding.[5]Hephaestus crafted much of the magnificent equipment of the gods, and almost any finely-wrought metalwork imbued with powers that appears in Greek myth is said to have been forged by Hephaestus. He designed Hermes' winged helmet and sandals, the Aegisbreastplate, Aphrodite's famed girdle, Agamemnon's staff of office,[6]Achilles' armor, Heracles' bronze clappers, Helios' chariot, the shoulder of Pelops, and Eros' bow and arrows. In later accounts, Hephaestus worked with the help of the chthonic Cyclopes—among them his assistants in the forge, Brontes, Steropes and Pyracmon.[7][8]

Hephaestus also built automatons of metal to work for him. This included tripods that walked to and from Mount Olympus. He gave to the blinded Orion his apprentice Cedalion as a guide. Prometheus stole the fire that he gave to man from Hephaestus's forge. Hephaestus also created the gift that the gods gave to man, the woman Pandora and her pithos. Being a skilled blacksmith, Hephaestus created all the thrones in the Palace of Olympus.[9]
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Hephaestus

I also found the word sallet, for helmet, to have a possible association:

Quote

The sallet (also called celata,salade and schaller) was a war helmet that replaced the bascinet in Italy, western and northern Europe and Hungary during the mid-15th century. In Italy, France and England the armet helmet was also popular, but in Germany the sallet became almost universal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallet

Although the term is relatively modern i think that there could be a relation to the wording salt atha, you have been discussing, but that is just my opinion.

Regards,
Mario Dantas

Edited by Mario Dantas, 21 June 2013 - 03:44 PM.

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#4124    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:09 PM

Right on cue this link came to my notice today , found in Bulgaria , said to be the oldest settlement found in Europe . 4,400 to 4,200 ish ,

www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=58682

Says for Millenia salt was the most valued commodity , salt was money.......The inhabitants boiled brine from salt springs nearby, baked it in kilns , and made salt bricks, which were then exchanged for goods with neighboring tribes .

Salt-Atha , i could see it being used maybe in the context of buying someones friendship , or loyalty , like in a standing army .


#4125    Abramelin

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:14 PM

If I were sailing the seas, I wouldn't need any payment in salt; I would extract salt from the sea myself.

Salt was only valuable for those who lived far inland.





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