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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#4231    Jan Ott

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 11:38 AM

In the old thread, on 22 febr. 2011 (post #3175), Otharus said:

Quote

I have been wondering what this Red Cliff of the Frisian legends was, and I still do.


I believe this term was originally referring to a REAL red cliff, namely part of the coast of Helgoland and later the name was moved to something in Friesland.

This may be significant, because toponyms were often re-used when people migrated, resulting in major confusion among historians (example: Troy and Odysseus voyage).

Helgoland was an important source for copper, hence important for bronze production.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by gestur, 18 August 2013 - 11:45 AM.

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#4232    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 01:43 PM

Any one else having trouble loading the Tresoar link , mine seems to be stuck on the first page ,

Gestur .....are you sure wmbrocht def means murdered , i am still not convinced..........if i search for the word used any other time in OBL , i cant find it used again ... and brocht , used many times ......seems to mean brought ???? please convince me .



Puz....that part-olon king .........is ptolemy a possible etymological derivative from this name ?.. any idea ?

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 18 August 2013 - 01:48 PM.


#4233    The Puzzler

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 03:47 PM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 18 August 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Any one else having trouble loading the Tresoar link , mine seems to be stuck on the first page ,

Gestur .....are you sure wmbrocht def means murdered , i am still not convinced..........if i search for the word used any other time in OBL , i cant find it used again ... and brocht , used many times ......seems to mean brought ???? please convince me .



Puz....that part-olon king .........is ptolemy a possible etymological derivative from this name ?.. any idea ?
brocht does appear to be brought.

Scots

Etymology

Old English bringan
Verb
tae bring (third-person singular simple present brings, present participle bringin, simple past brocht, past participle brocht) dâd (2), dâ-d, afries., st. M. (a): Vw.: s. dâ-th
fen maem-ra dâd

Here's murdered:  (vrden I guess) Nêi that tha modder vrdên was, lêter tha foddik aend tha fâmna to sina skip to brenga bijunka alle in-bold thêr im likte.
Closest I can find is urdema - condemn

Not sure about def though - should relate to deaf
Where is wmbrocht def used? Heres the angelfire link - http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

-----------
part-olon king? Sorry I have no idea what you mean.

Edited by The Puzzler, 18 August 2013 - 04:09 PM.

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#4234    Van Gorp

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 03:53 PM

View Postgestur, on 18 August 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

In the old thread, on 22 febr. 2011 (post #3175), Otharus said:
[/size]

I believe this term was originally referring to a REAL red cliff, namely part of the coast of Helgoland and later the name was moved to something in Friesland.

This may be significant, because toponyms were often re-used when people migrated, resulting in major confusion among historians (example: Troy and Odysseus voyage).

Helgoland was an important source for copper, hence important for bronze production.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Interesting point about the toponyms Gestur.

About the cliffs: I remember in Cornwall are also "Red Cliff"s (fe neighbourhood Herne Bay).
Which Herne? The Corn Herne :-)


#4235    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 04:45 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 18 August 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

brocht does appear to be brought.

Scots

Etymology

Old English bringan
Verb
tae bring (third-person singular simple present brings, present participle bringin, simple past brocht, past participle brocht) dâd (2), dâ-d, afries., st. M. (a): Vw.: s. dâ-th
fen maem-ra dâd

Here's murdered:  (vrden I guess) Nêi that tha modder vrdên was, lêter tha foddik aend tha fâmna to sina skip to brenga bijunka alle in-bold thêr im likte.
Closest I can find is urdema - condemn

Not sure about def though - should relate to deaf
Where is wmbrocht def used? Heres the angelfire link - http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

-----------
part-olon king? Sorry I have no idea what you mean.

Sorry puz , i am being lazy there and just using def to mean definitely, .............Thrittich jer aftere dei that thju folksmoder wmbrocht was thruch there vreste Magy stand et er arg um to .

thirty years after the day on which the volksmother was "murdered" by the commander Magy , was a time of great distress, i am presuming wmbrocht was the word translated as murdered  .No ?

and sorry again the question about Part-olon and poss connection with Ptolomy ( mainly phonetic ) refers to my post #4224 , but a bit presumptive of me to think you have had time to read it .

and is everyone else able to use the tresoar link to OBL, i have tried to re-load it a couple of times , but its not working for me ? can only get the first page up , but it wont give me any other pages of the original .

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 18 August 2013 - 04:49 PM.


#4236    Jan Ott

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 05:23 PM

View PostNO-ID-EA, on 18 August 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Gestur .....are you sure wmbrocht def means murdered [...] please convince me .

Yes, I actually made a post about death- and killing-related words:

View Postgestur, on 24 April 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

Death - to die - to kill
related words and spelling variety in 86 OLB-fragments

Posted Image

[...]

Euphemisms

[...]

OMBRENSA [53]
(she) WAS VMBROCHT - was killed [1]
(they) WRDON OMBROCHT - were killed [29]
(he) WARTH OM BROCHT - was killed [83]

- - -

Fragments
OLB page/ line: [xxx/yy]
Ottema/ Sandbach page: O-S p.xxx

1 [001/01]
THRITTICH JÉR ÀFTERE DÉI
THAT THJU FOLKSMODER VMBROCHT WAS

[O-S p.5]
Dertig jaren na den dag,
waarop de volksmoeder omgebracht was
Thirty years after the day
on which the Yolksmoeder was murdered


29 [054/07]
THÁ THENE MÁGÍ FORNOM
HO SIN LJVD AL OMBROCHT WRDON

[O-S p.77]
Toen de Magy vernam,
hoe zijne manschappen overal omgebragt werden
When the Magy heard
how his forces had been utterly defeated [:were all killed]


53 [122/19]
HI WILDE THA SALT.ATHA THRVCH SIN AJN FOLK OMBRENSA LÉTA
[O-S p.167]
hij wilde de soldaten door zijn eigen volk laten ombrengen
[he] wished his own people to kill the soldiers
[:he wished to let the soldiers be killed through his own folk]


83 [191/11]
THI JENA THAM THÉR NAVT FAR BUGJA NILDE
WARTH OM BROCHT JEFTHA AN KÉDNE DÉN

[O-S p.231]
degene die daar niet voor buigen wilde,
werd omgebracht of in ketenen gedaan.
those who would not bow down to them
were either killed or put in chains

dictionary (16th century Dutch)
Etymologicum Teutonicae Linguae (1599) Kiliaan:
ombrenghen = dilapidare, prodigere

Google translate dutch-to-english gives for "ombrengen": "slay"

Edited by gestur, 18 August 2013 - 05:24 PM.

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#4237    Jan Ott

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 06:02 PM

View PostVan Gorp, on 18 August 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

About the cliffs: I remember in Cornwall are also "Red Cliff"s (fe neighbourhood Herne Bay).


I found this:

Posted Image

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#4238    Van Gorp

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 06:33 PM

View Postgestur, on 18 August 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

[/size]

I found this:

Posted Image

Yes idd Gestur: Ladram Bay.

I thought it was called Herne Bay, but in fact there is the Hern Rock.
Herne Bay is in Kent.


#4239    Van Gorp

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 06:37 PM

View PostVan Gorp, on 18 August 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Yes idd Gestur: Ladram Bay.

I thought it was called Herne Bay, but in fact there is the Hern Rock.
Herne Bay is in Kent.

If I remember well, the sea there was called in earlier times also Red Sea because of the reddish reflection at the coastline.


#4240    The Puzzler

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:21 AM

View Postgestur, on 18 August 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Yes, I actually made a post about death- and killing-related words:



dictionary (16th century Dutch)
Etymologicum Teutonicae Linguae (1599) Kiliaan:
ombrenghen = dilapidare, prodigere

Google translate dutch-to-english gives for "ombrengen": "slay"

It might then have one time related to 'brought undone" - a common phrase even now in English for someone to go down, lose, maybe even die.
So thinking about that - I Googled and found this reference:

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge” Hosea 4:6a. Not surprisingly, the word translated ‘destroyed’ is the Hebrew word dâmâh and it means to be “to be brought to silence; to be undone, hence to fail or perish”.
http://olatunjiakino...e-of-confusion/



The word 'destroyed'  is actually Hebrew meaning to be undone hence to fail or perish.

So, to be brought undone - unbrought - means ' destroyed'  or I guess, murdered, slayed, killed etc.

Thanks NO IDEA - I should have realised that your def was def. Silly me.

Edited by The Puzzler, 19 August 2013 - 04:23 AM.

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#4241    Jan Ott

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 10:51 AM

View Postgestur, on 18 August 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

I believe this term was originally referring to a REAL red cliff, namely part of the coast of Helgoland and later the name was moved to something in Friesland.

Most of pre-19th century Frisian historiography is rejected because it is assumed to be 'merely fantasy'.
The term used for it is "fantastic Frisian history" or "Frisian mythology".
One main reason for it not being taken seriously is the occurence of a dragon and fire coming out of the earth at the "Red Cliff".

Ocko Scarlensis/ Okko van Scharle (16th century):

Quote

Midzomer in 't voorsz. Jaar van vier/
ontsprong op 't Zuidwest van den Berg/
die men het Rode Clif noemt/
omtrent tien treden daar van/
een vuurige vlamme/
drie dagen duurende/
uit der aarden/
en den vierden dag daar na kwam daar eenen groten Draak uit vliegen/
die zig zeer hoog in de lugt verhief/
tot een verschrikkinge van velen;
en na dat hy omtrent een half uur zig zo hoog in de lugt vertoont hadde/
is hy weder nedergedaalt/
vliegende in der aarde/
daar hy uit gekomen was/
en is daar na nooit weder gezien.

Quote

~ Onder dezes regeringe/
te weten Anno 155.
is by den Berg van 't Rode Clif den vuurigen Put weder opgebroken/
en brande zeer vreeslyk agt dagen lang/
zo dat het een grote verschikkinge by yder een maakte/
namentlyk by den genen die daar naast om gelegen waren.

Daar wierde grote neerstigheid gedaan om te weten wat het dog wezen mogte/
dog men heeft'er eigentlyk niet van konnen vernemen/
en na dat het zo agt dagen gebrand en zeer hoog gevlamt hadde/
en men nergens digt by konde komen/
zo is't van zelfs weder toegedaan;
men vermoede daar zoude een grote Sterfte of Pestilentie op volgen/
dog Stavo/
haar voornaamste Afgodt/
van dezen gevraagt zynde/
zeide: dat zulks niet was te vrezen/
want daar zoude na [p.12] langheid van tyd een zeer koude materie na volgen/
zo dat ze door des Afgodts antwoord gepaaid/
en weder getroost zyn geweest.

It is usually assumed that this is about the so-called Red Clif (or clivus ruber) in Friesland:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

I suggest the possibility that this Frisian 'cliff' is named after the old legend and not the other way around.

The legend can then be based on REAL red cliffs, on the island Helgoland, were bronze was made, hence the fire and dragon symbolism: it may have been coded information. (I will argue this in more detail later.)

On the island Sylt, north-east of Helgoland (Nordfriesland near border Germany-Denmark) there is also a so-called 'Red Cliff' (Roten Kliff near Kampen):

Posted Image

The relevance for OLB is, that when the Frisian mythology is taken more seriously, OLB also will make more sense.

Edited by gestur, 19 August 2013 - 10:55 AM.

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#4242    Abramelin

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 07:43 PM

The Red Cliff was/is located near Stavoren, in the former Zuiderzee.

In the 19th century a chemist (the owner of a drugsstore) analyzed both the story and the cliff, and found out the legend must've been based on the flammable swamp gas that escaped from the cliff.

The dragon part is of course nothing but superstitious nonsense.

I have posted about this in part -1- of this thread.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 19 August 2013 - 07:44 PM.


#4243    Jan Ott

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:42 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 19 August 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

The Red Cliff was/is located near Stavoren, in the former Zuiderzee.

Like I said, there are more Red Cliffs, some of which actually look more like a REAL cliff than the one in Friesland: de.wikipedia/Rotes_Kliff

Posted Image

Quote

The dragon part is of course nothing but superstitious nonsense.


When people speak of a capricorn they usually don't mean the real animal or even the fantasy half horned-half fishtail creature, but a formation of stars.

Posted Image

Likewise, many mythological symbols may have been based on natural phenomena.
For example electric discharge in the night sky (source: Thunderbolts Project):

Posted Image


Like the unicorn and phoenix, the dragon can be a symbol.

Posted Image

The dragon-theme is seen in many ancient mythologies and usually related to fire.



If indeed Helgoland was important for bronze-production (because of its rich copper resourses), its red cliff can easily be associated with fire and thus, dragons.

Edited by gestur, 20 August 2013 - 10:43 AM.

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#4244    Abramelin

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:14 PM

View Postgestur, on 20 August 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Like I said, there are more Red Cliffs, some of which actually look more like a REAL cliff than the one in Friesland: de.wikipedia/Rotes_Kliff


I know what you said, but this is about the Red Cliff near Stavoren.

Well, that's what I thought this is about.

And about that Red Cliff near Stavoren a legend exists, as you know., a Frisian legend connected with the legendary ancestor of the Frisians: Friso.


#4245    Knul

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 03:33 AM

View Postgestur, on 17 August 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

7. ALLERA MANNALIK THÉR EN OTHER FON SINE FRYDOM BIRAW
AL WÉRE THENE ORE HIM SKELDECH
MOT IK ANDA BARN.TAM ÉNER SLAFINE FARA LÉTA.


About the word barntam = kindertuig (eig. -toom) , Eng. tame, bridle.

Apparently there are two meanings:

1. tam 1 und häufiger?, tom, afries., Adj.: nhd. zahm; ne. tame (Adj.); Vw.: s. jõd-er‑, ðd-er‑; Hw.: vgl. got. *tams, an. tamr, ae. tam, as. tam*, ahd. zam; E.: germ. *tama‑, *tamaz, Adj., gezähmt, zahm; s. idg. *demý‑, *domý‑, *domý‑, *demh2‑, V., zähmen, Pokorny 199; vgl. idg. *dem‑, *demý‑, *demh2‑, V., bauen, zusammenfügen, Pokorny 198; L.: Hh 108b, Hh 162, Rh 1064a

2. tâ-m 28, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Zaum, Nachkommenschaft, Gruppe von Höfen die je für ein Jahr einen Richter stellen, Aufschub; ne. bridle (N.), offspring, postponement, number of estates sending a judge alternately for one year; Vw.: s. ber‑n‑, on‑; Hw.: vgl. an. taumr, ae. téam, anfrk. tæm, as. *tam (2)?, ahd. zoum; Q.: S, W, B, E, F, Schw; E.: germ. *tauhma‑, *tauhmaz, st. M. (a), Seil, Zaum, Nachkommenschaft; s. idg. *deuk‑, V., ziehen, Pokorny 220; vgl. idg. *deu‑?, V., ziehen, Pokorny 220; W.: nfries. teamme; W.: saterl. tome; L.: Hh 108b, Hh 176, Rh 1064a
Koebler: ber-n‑tâ-m 1, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Zeugungsfähigkeit; ne. generative power (N.); Hw.: vgl. ae. bearntéam; Q.: F; E.: s. ber‑n, tâ‑m; L.: Hh 7b, Hh 153, Rh 627b. Similarly Hettema.

You may rewrite your article in Fryskednis with this information. Jensma obviously took the wrong meaning.

Edited by Knul, 22 August 2013 - 03:40 AM.