4096 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Even most of what you posted hints at a root like Phlem or Phleum or Phlam and not Phleu/Fleu.

Btw: the word 'menschen' (men, people, or 'mensen' in modern Dutch)  is a quite modern word.


I liked this one:

Pleumosii, a people of Belgic Gaul

http://www.perseus.t...&can=pleumosii0

I think that if the spelling had been Fleumossi, some Belgians would have rolled over the floor with laughter !!


.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2012 - 08:16 PM.

[Erudite Celt]

Abramelin, on 16 May 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

Thread continued from: Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood (Original)

About the Baltic being a 'bad/angry sea'...

I think that is crap etymology.

The North Sea is much more dangerous than the Baltic ever was. In thousands of years many millions have drowned because the North Sea was 'angry'.

One of it's oldest (Frisian?) names was ""Hell". Many placenames in the Netherlands still have the word 'Hel' in them.

Even the OLB mentions floods that must have occurred in the North Sea area.

Btw, does the OLB ever give a name for the North Sea?

Not really, unless it is "Wralda's Sea", like I suggested a long time ago.

,

The root meaning for the prefix Hel,Heli in Francish-Germanic and Norse means Holy not Hell.

[Abramelin]

Erudite Celt, on 17 May 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

The root meaning for the prefix Hel,Heli in Francish-Germanic and Norse means Holy not Hell.

Hi Erudite Celt, welcome to UM.

What you suggested could be true, and sounds even likely.

In another thread. the "Doggerland" thread I have talked a lot about this 'Hel', and what it might mean.

An example of what I posted (and click on the whitish blob, left of my username in that quoted post, and you will arrive at that thread):

Abramelin, on 07 June 2010 - 06:34 PM, said:

"Hell" as the ancient name of the North Sea hasn't anything to do with Hellas (Greece), it's one of many spellings of the ancient name of the North Sea (also Hulda, Harla, Halla, and so on - search this forum, and you will eventually come to a page in this thread )

The Hellweg
By Joannes Richter

In the Middle Ages the Hellweg was an ancient east-west route through Germany, from Duisburg to Paderborn. The Hellweg, as an essential corridor that operated in overland transit of long-distance trade, was used by Charlemagne in his Saxon wars. This book reports the traces of trading routes called „Hellweg“ between Duisburg up to Frankfurt at the Oder and to Hamburg. Just like the Way of St. James the trading route Hellweg spreads towards the East in numerous directions. Obviously the Hellweg may have been called the Highway to Holland, respectively the Highway to Hell, which has been the name for the North Sea

http://www.lulu.com/..._search_results

A number of Hellweg-routes may be identified in Germany. The best-known „Hellweg“ is to be found as an east-west -route for a medieval Rhein-Elbe-interconnection along the hills in the middle of Germany. In particular the main route has been reserved for the traject between Duisburg and Paderborn. This west-falic route may have existed well over 5000 years, starting at the Rhine near Ruhrort at Duisburg, Essen, Dortmund, Unna, Werl, Soest, Erwitte, Geseke, Salzkotten, Paderborn up to Bad Driburg.

http://thehellweg.bl...an-hellweg.html


Or read this entire blog if you want to know more about Hell : http://thehellweg.blogspot.com/

Btw, that doesn't mean that the ancient Greeks could not have known about the North Sea. I am not talking about the voyages of Pytheas here - he did indeed visit the North Sea and the Baltic), or even the Phoenician Himilco; these guys visited the area much later.

There are those - and mind you, I am not well versed in Greek history or ancient Greek poetry - who think that Homer may not have been Greek at all, but that he originally came from northern Europe, and that the ancient Greeks borrowed from his myths.

If that's true, then "Hades", as the Underworld, could have been inspired by the North Sea area.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 May 2012 - 09:16 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 17 May 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Even most of what you posted hints at a root like Phlem or Phleum or Phlam and not Phleu/Fleu.

Btw: the word 'menschen' (men, people, or 'mensen' in modern Dutch)  is a quite modern word.


I liked this one:

Pleumosii, a people of Belgic Gaul

http://www.perseus.t...&can=pleumosii0

I think that if the spelling had been Fleumossi, some Belgians would have rolled over the floor with laughter !!


.

:-) And I wonder what the etymoligic explanation of fluim would be.

Maybe some extra info about 'mensch', and the ending '-sch' (from http://www.onzetaal....eer-vroeger-sch).

For non-dutch speaking: suffix 'sch' was previously written when the word was ending in earlier Dutch on -sk or -sc.
'Mens' goes back to a very old form ending on -iska/-isko.
See mennisko (person) from a quote of 1100.

Dat heeft te maken met de herkomst van deze woorden. Er werd vroeger alleen -sch aan het woordeinde geschreven als het woord in ouder Nederlands op -sk of -sc eindigde. Huis gaat terug op hus(a) en mens gaat terug op een heel oude vorm die eindigde op -iska/-isko; in een citaat uit 1100 komt het woord mennisko ('persoon') voor.
Oorspronkelijk werd een woord als mensch met een k- of g-achtige klank aan het einde uitgesproken, maar het verschil in uitspraak tussen de slotklank van huis en die van mensch is al eeuwen geleden verdwenen.

Makes me think of the surnames Vleminckx and Devlaminck.

But Phleu or Fleu or Vlye or Phleum or Flevum or Flevo or Flandrensis or Flauma or Flâm: flooded land it was (in the name).

[The Puzzler]

holy O.E. halig "holy, consecrated, sacred, godly," from P.Gmc. *hailaga- (cf. O.N. heilagr, O.Fris. helich "holy," O.S. helag, M.Du. helich, O.H.G. heilag, Ger. heilig, Goth. hailags "holy"). Adopted at conversion for L. sanctus.
With halig from hel - the clue is from Frisian - hel-like - hel being bright light - holy imo simply comes from the 'bright light' apparition - most things holy all have to do with bright light, like a halo. Holy means Hel like - "like bright light" - that raises up. But hel is raised too - think Helios, a combo of both - the bright light that raised up each day. Raising bright light is also hel-like - so the Sun became Helios - not for just bright light but for RAISING the BRIGHT LIGHT. This became 'holy' imo, associated with the rise of (the Sun) God. Holy imo would not be the original.

[The Puzzler]

The modern English word Hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (about 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period, and ultimately from Proto-Germanic *halja, meaning "one who covers up or hides something".^[1] The word has cognates in related Germanic languages such as Old Frisian helle, hille, Old Saxon hellja, Middle Dutch helle (modern Dutch hel), Old High German helle (Modern German Hölle), Danish, Norwegian and Swedish "helvede"/helvete (hel + Old Norse vitti, "punishment" whence the Icelandic víti "hell"), and Gothic halja.^[1] Subsequently, the word was used to transfer a pagan concept to Christian theology and its vocabulary^[1] (however, for the Judeo-Christian origin of the concept see Gehenna).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell


halja would be imo something like 'the hill'- the mound, which did cover something up, the body of the dead, in the kurgans.

hill. or the Underworld, that is what is under the hill - and it's sacred (maybe secret as well). Hell is the underworld because the underworld was under hills, mounds imo.

It's probably different from hel as in light which is an archaic meaning.
Adjective

hel (comparative heller, superlative helst)

• (archaic) bright

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hel

Edited by The Puzzler, 18 May 2012 - 02:58 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Heil, hail and hole would all come from this word heill - which really sounds to me like an early form of wheel.


This goes to Old Frisian hal - which is hall - and heal/healthy - whole, complete. Also luck.

Funny how Proto-Uralic root hal means die.

Die in Basque is HIL.

Another Finnish word is hella for hot, oven.Probably where some form of idea of hell being a hot furnace...

The whole hell thing is very interesting and confusing imo - there are so many variations of this word linking to other forms of the word, it's hard to know what is connected to each other, or are they all connected in the end and hel as bright, went into Germanic from hot oven, cremation - hal=die...who knows really?


Hang on - seems the stove thing comes from hallr - flat stone - also piece of flat iron - they probably cooked on this - it was their furnace, stove.

They think Hel the Goddess is some kind of post-Christian and might not be pagan at all. The concept of Hel as an underworld fiure may not be that old - hel in the OLB is definitely hill, not anything else, unless I've missed something.
I think  I might make it a pet project, to decipher all the hel connections. I'll save you though and not make posts of it all.

Edited by The Puzzler, 18 May 2012 - 04:01 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Van Gorp, on 17 May 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

OK thnx.

Below my and seemingly also other's idea's about the word 'Vlaanderen'.

WIKI gives the right description: "overstroomd gebied" (flooded area)
but as usual coming with a Latin origin "Flandrensis", deducted from "flâm", which on his turn is described as
“een Ingveoonse vorm van het Germaanse flauma, dat "overstroomd gebied" betekent”

So, what WIKI actually says is "Vlaanderen" -> coming from the Latinised version of  "flooded area"
But, as we know: Latin was not the original language spoken here.

Latin actually, is not that old as pretended and tend to use local names and make a Latinised version of it
(-> more Latin texts are found in France and Germany than in Italy sic!, same with Greek in Greece)

"Phleu/Fleu" (nowadays Vloeien, Vloeden, Vlied, Vlieden) -> flood of the sea ('t Vleut, 't VLied) -> Fleu-Landern (or Flie-Landern) -> pronounced Fl-Landern
The 'Vlemschen' (Phleu-menschen, Phlemschen, Flemschen,Pleumosii in Latin) are people living around the estuarium  -> or now mostly called the 'Vlamschen' (Vlam-inghen)

Below just for reference (and the relevant parts are translated above ;-)

Yes,  and the term Flemish is probably Old Frisian.

The adjective Flemish (first attested as flemmysshe, c. 1325^[8]; cf. Flæming, c. 1150^[9]), meaning "from Flanders", was probably borrowed from Old Frisian.^[10] The name Vlaanderen was probably formed from a stem flām-, meaning "flooded area", with a suffix -ðr- attached;^[11] compare Common Germanic *flōðuz, "flood".^[12] The Old Dutch form is flāmisk, which becomes vlamesc, vlaemsch in Middle Dutch and Vlaams in Modern Dutch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish

What stem flam? OK, found it: The region's name is thought to derive from an Ingvaeonic stem flām- meaning "flooded land" (from Proto-Germanic *flauma-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanders

I don't know about that stem - but I do think the derivative of FLAN could account for the name of Flanders.

flan "open tart," 1846, from Fr. flan "custard tart, cheesecake," from O.Fr. flaon (12c.), from M.L. flado, probably a Germanic borrowing (cf. Frank. *flado, O.H.G. flado "offering cake," M.H.G. vlade "a broad, thin cake," Du. vla "baked custard"), from P.Gmc. *flatho(n), akin to words for "flat" and probably from PIE root *plat- "to spread" (see place). Borrowed earlier as flawn (c.1300), from Old French. http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=flan

A broad, flat, spreading land - Flanders.

Catalan language has a crossover word: flam/flan

Catalan

Noun
flam m. (plural flams)

• flan (custard dessert)

Keeping in line with Frisian style naming - the Flemish people could simply have been the flatlanders.

Edited by The Puzzler, 18 May 2012 - 04:36 AM.

[The Puzzler]

I also think now, that flambe, flame comes out of flan/flam or maybe vice versa - meaning spreading - as in a flame also - the key is flamboyant - the word means flam in the form of wavy, moving flame, spreading fire is flame like fan, spreading. You also fan the flames, make the fire spread further.

Flem and flaum and all these other apparent Ingaevonic/Germanic flam=flood words, may come from the concept of 'spreading' water (flan, fan, flame), covering the land, flooding the place.

Many words, I've discovered, come from very basic concepts.

Edited by The Puzzler, 18 May 2012 - 06:24 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 18 May 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

holy O.E. halig "holy, consecrated, sacred, godly," from P.Gmc. *hailaga- (cf. O.N. heilagr, O.Fris. helich "holy," O.S. helag, M.Du. helich, O.H.G. heilag, Ger. heilig, Goth. hailags "holy"). Adopted at conversion for L. sanctus.
With halig from hel - the clue is from Frisian - hel-like - hel being bright light - holy imo simply comes from the 'bright light' apparition - most things holy all have to do with bright light, like a halo. Holy means Hel like - "like bright light" - that raises up. But hel is raised too - think Helios, a combo of both - the bright light that raised up each day. Raising bright light is also hel-like - so the Sun became Helios - not for just bright light but for RAISING the BRIGHT LIGHT. This became 'holy' imo, associated with the rise of (the Sun) God. Holy imo would not be the original.

The Puzzler, on 18 May 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

Heil, hail and hole would all come from this word heill - which really sounds to me like an early form of wheel.


This goes to Old Frisian hal - which is hall - and heal/healthy - whole, complete. Also luck.

Funny how Proto-Uralic root hal means die.

Die in Basque is HIL.

Another Finnish word is hella for hot, oven.Probably where some form of idea of hell being a hot furnace...

The whole hell thing is very interesting and confusing imo - there are so many variations of this word linking to other forms of the word, it's hard to know what is connected to each other, or are they all connected in the end and hel as bright, went into Germanic from hot oven, cremation - hal=die...who knows really?


Hang on - seems the stove thing comes from hallr - flat stone - also piece of flat iron - they probably cooked on this - it was their furnace, stove.

They think Hel the Goddess is some kind of post-Christian and might not be pagan at all. The concept of Hel as an underworld fiure may not be that old - hel in the OLB is definitely hill, not anything else, unless I've missed something.
I think  I might make it a pet project, to decipher all the hel connections. I'll save you though and not make posts of it all.

You might have clicked on the link in the post I quoted:

http://thehellweg.bl...holl-names.html

http://thehellweg.bl...09/holland.html

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 May 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[Otharus]

If Amsterdam and Haarlem (the biggest cities of North-Holland) would be left out, the percentages would have been higher.

source: http://www.nidi.knaw...6-09-beets2.pdf

Edited by Otharus, 18 May 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[Abramelin]

Say Otharus, did you read my post to Puzzler? About  "Petronella Bias", the founder of the "Oera Linda Society"?

It appears she was related to 'a' "Jantje Over de Linden" from Den Helder.

Is she any way related to THE Over de Linden family that you know of?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 May 2012 - 09:39 AM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 18 May 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

About "Petronella Bias", the founder of the "Oera Linda Society"?

Please Abe, don't you see?!
That's part of the hoax Tony Steal is trying to create.
I will not waste one letter on that.
NEVER EVER use his websites as a source for anything.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 18 May 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

Please Abe, don't you see?!
That's part of the hoax Tony Steal is trying to create.
I will not waste one letter on that.
NEVER EVER use his websites as a source for anything.

Of course I know it's Tony Steele's creation.

Hey, I am not using his website as some kind of 'source', I actually posted it as a joke for Puzz.

But I think there IS a Petronella Bais in the Over de Linden family, I only don't know if she was related to THE Over de Lindens.

That name was - for  me - the only interesting thing I read there.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 May 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 18 May 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

But I think there IS a Petronella Bais in the Over de Linden family, I only don't know if she was related to THE Over de Lindens.

Petronella Bais (1897-?) was a granddaughter of Jantje Over de Linden (1837-1907), a daughter of Adrianus OL (1807-1870), who was a cousin to the first degree of our Cornelis.

Edited by Otharus, 18 May 2012 - 10:49 AM.