4012 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 18 May 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Petronella Bais (1897-?) was a granddaughter of Jantje Over de Linden (1837-1907), a daughter of Adrianus OL (1807-1870), who was a cousin to the first degree of our Cornelis.

Ah, thanks,  I couldn't find the link to Adrianus OL.


Petronella Bais, 1897–1971
(Founder of the Society)

III-d ‎ ‏Petronella Bais
Geb. ‎± 1897 te Den Helder‎. Dochter van Thomas Bais en Jannetje de Boer
‏
Thomas Bais‏‎
Geb. ‎± 1865 te Enkhuizen‎. Beroep(en): visscher. Zoon van Pieter Bais en Jantje over de Linden‏


And what do you think of the date of her death, 1971? Any truth in it?

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 18 May 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

You might have clicked on the link in the post I quoted:

http://thehellweg.bl...holl-names.html

http://thehellweg.bl...09/holland.html

.

It says:

The name Helle has been used for the North Sea, which was called Holle, referring to "Holland". The Frisian name for the North Sea is Harle respectively Har, which correlates to herring⁶ , and to the following number of (mostly Dutch) town-names: Middelharnis, Haringvliet, Harlem, Harlingen, Hargen⁷, Harle⁸ and in English: Harwich as well as in the English word „harbour“.



Harbour
Etymology
From Middle English herber, herberge, from Old English herebeorg (“shelter, lodgings, quarters”), from Proto-Germanic *harjaz (“army”) + *bergô (“protection”), equivalent to Old English here (“army, host”) + ġebeorg (“defense, protection, refuge”). Cognate with Old Norse herbergi (“a harbour; a room”) (whence the Icelandic herbergi), Dutch herberg, German Herberge ‘hospice’, Swedish härbärge. Compare also French auberge (“hostel”). More at here, borrow.

I found both the links filled with etymologies that had no substance in the connections made. Holland apparently is from holtland. There is Helle or Heilli at the mouth of the Vistula but that's about all I know for any relation to that name of the sea at any time and it's not the North Sea. Since that area was the Frisian Sea once, it's possible it was called the Helle Sea there.
http://upload.wikime...teris_typus.jpg

It answered nothing.

Edited by The Puzzler, 18 May 2012 - 12:15 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 18 May 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

And what do you think of the date of her death, 1971? Any truth in it?

I found on the web that she died on 26-3-1971 in Den Helder. She had a son and a daughter.

I updated the OL-genealogy (see VII-3) on
http://fryskednis.bl...-genealogy.html

[Otharus]

The post I made earlier got lost because I'm still getting used to the new editor.
Here it is again (with comment).

I have tried to explain this earlier (in context of cultural difference between North-Holland and rest of NL), but pictures often say more than words.

I think it is significant.
I wish I had statistics for North-Holland WITHOUT Amsterdam and Haarlem.

Otharus, on 17 May 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Otharus, on 18 May 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

These percentages clearly show that in 1920 the province North-Holland was least religious.
Source: http://www.nidi.knaw...6-09-beets2.pdf

If the biggest cities Amsterdam and Haarlem would not have been included, the percentage of unreligious people in NH would probably have been even higher.

This supports my theory that the original 'free-Frisian' (or Fryan) spirit survived more in North-Holland than in the province Friesland. It may also explain why the Over de Linden family moved from Leeuwarden (FRL) to Enkhuizen (NH).

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 18 May 2012 - 11:31 AM, said:

It says:

The name Helle has been used for the North Sea, which was called Holle, referring to "Holland". The Frisian name for the North Sea is Harle respectively Har, which correlates to herring⁶ , and to the following number of (mostly Dutch) town-names: Middelharnis, Haringvliet, Harlem, Harlingen, Hargen⁷, Harle⁸ and in English: Harwich as well as in the English word „harbour“.



Harbour
Etymology
From Middle English herber, herberge, from Old English herebeorg (“shelter, lodgings, quarters”), from Proto-Germanic *harjaz (“army”) + *bergô (“protection”), equivalent to Old English here (“army, host”) + ġebeorg (“defense, protection, refuge”). Cognate with Old Norse herbergi (“a harbour; a room”) (whence the Icelandic herbergi), Dutch herberg, German Herberge ‘hospice’, Swedish härbärge. Compare also French auberge (“hostel”). More at here, borrow.

I found both the links filled with etymologies that had no substance in the connections made. Holland apparently is from holtland. There is Helle or Heilli at the mouth of the Vistula but that's about all I know for any relation to that name of the sea at any time and it's not the North Sea. Since that area was the Frisian Sea once, it's possible it was called the Helle Sea there.

http://upload.wikime...teris_typus.jpg

It answered nothing.

It said a lot. And it did what you always do: gather a lot of somewhat similar words and start juggling.

But I am not going to go on with this 'hel' because it doesn't show up as such in the OLB.

There are enough words left in the OLB to analyze.

[The Puzzler]

If the name on that map Heilli is related to heill it could be the landform is called hole really, because it is a harbour shaped hole. Heli became circle because it was relative to the word hole I spose.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 18 May 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

It said a lot. And it did what you always do: gather a lot of somewhat similar words and start juggling.

But I am not going to go on with this 'hel' because it doesn't show up as such in the OLB.

There are enough words left in the OLB to analyze.

Fair enough and their was a lot of juggling and it was interesting but I don't think it solved anything new for me, that's all. Hell is certainly in the OLB as hellinger, hill - the question is, how far did the word radiate and is the OLB Fryan form the original - but I won't go on about it anymore here.

One thing though I see: hald in the Frisian Dictionary is inclined, then North - then it has hallr - the Frisians would call the North Sea a deriviative of this word if anything. This would still go through to hill.

Edited by The Puzzler, 18 May 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[The Puzzler]

The Puzzler, on 18 May 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Fair enough and their was a lot of juggling and it was interesting but I don't think it solved anything new for me, that's all. Hell is certainly in the OLB as hellinger, hill - the question is, how far did the word radiate and is the OLB Fryan form the original - but I won't go on about it anymore here.

One thing though I see: hald in the Frisian Dictionary is inclined, then North - then it has hallr - the Frisians would call the North Sea a deriviative of this word if anything. This would still go through to hill.

Not that anyone probably cares but hêlich would be whole, complete - holy, not what I said before about light.

Every Frisian hêl word is relative to healing and whole and every hel word is to do with concealing, secret.

These really seem like the early (earliest) forms of these words based on 2 simple words, hêl and hel and hel is probably related to hal (hill) an even earlier version of conceal.

Edited by The Puzzler, 18 May 2012 - 03:36 PM.

[Abramelin]

What is kind of telling is that the word "hellinga" in the OLB shows up nowhere else in any Old Frisian dictionary. And that is probably because it is a Middle Dutch word.

helling = slope, hillside, inclination, declension ...but also slipway

http://www.etymologi...efwoord/helling


NOW WE SHALL WRITE HOW IT FARED WITH JON.
IT IS INSCRIBED AT TEXLAND.

(..)

Hja wêron mith felum tekad aend hju hêdon hjara skula vppa hellinga thêra bergum. Thêrthrvch send hja thrvch vs folk Hellinggar hêten.

They were clothed in skins, and had their dwellings on the slopes (hellinga) of the hills, wherefore they were called Hellingers.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bb


And about the word 'hel' in the meaning of 'light' and 'bright', please check this page of part -I- of this thread:

http://www.unexplain...3

[Otharus]

A related word in OLB is HELD, which relates (directly and/or indcirectly) to hail, heal, health, whole, holy, (german and dutch:) heil, (dutch:) heel, held (hero), hagel... et cetera.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 18 May 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

A related word in OLB is HELD, which relates (directly and/or indcirectly) to hail, heal, health, whole, holy, (german and dutch:) heil, (dutch:) heel, held (hero), hagel... et cetera.

Are you sure? I checked just now - after reading your post, and HELD has to do with 'to hold'.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 18 May 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

Are you sure? I checked just now - after reading your post, and HELD has to do with 'to hold'.

Very well possible.
Wishing someone 'heil', or 'behoud' (as in behouden vaart) is virtually the same.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 18 May 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

What is kind of telling is that the word "hellinga" in the OLB shows up nowhere else in any Old Frisian dictionary. And that is probably because it is a Middle Dutch word.

helling = slope, hillside, inclination, declension ...but also slipway

http://www.etymologi...efwoord/helling


NOW WE SHALL WRITE HOW IT FARED WITH JON.
IT IS INSCRIBED AT TEXLAND.

(..)

Hja wêron mith felum tekad aend hju hêdon hjara skula vppa hellinga thêra bergum. Thêrthrvch send hja thrvch vs folk Hellinggar hêten.

They were clothed in skins, and had their dwellings on the slopes (hellinga) of the hills, wherefore they were called Hellingers.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bb


And about the word 'hel' in the meaning of 'light' and 'bright', please check this page of part -I- of this thread:

http://www.unexplain...3

hald is inclined - this can be hel-de - Frisian Dictionary

what isn't in the Frisian dictionary is hel for light or bright. (that I can see)

Also, why is there 2 different e's in the OLB, one imo is pronounced differently - like with a ^ above it.

Ny-hêl-ennia

I don't think the word is bright in her name - I think it's more like whole hêl and all those branch off words from it, like new and ie; healthy.

It's late but and I can't think anymore.

[The Puzzler]

The word is Hellinggar and linga is in the Frisian Dictionary - hard to find the meaning but in English, linger means hang out or even stay around - so hel-linggars - would be hill lingerers - people who lingered (lived, stayed) in the hills.

Goodnight for now.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 18 May 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

The word is Hellinggar and linga is in the Frisian Dictionary - hard to find the meaning but in English, linger means hang out or even stay around - so hel-linggars - would be hill lingerers - people who lingered (lived, stayed) in the hills.

Goodnight for now.

Show me where in this version of the Old Frisian dictionary:
http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-H.pdf

And the OLB word is "hellinga" as you can read in the quote in my former post.

"Hellingar" is supposed to be nothing but the plural of "hellinga" or people living on those "hellinga" as the quote explains.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 19 May 2012 - 07:06 AM.