4036 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

I have been busy trying to retrace a couple of things that I accidentally deleted when I was in a hurry yesterday.

Maybe someone here knows more of this:

1- Someone claims/said that Tolkien's "The Silmarillion" is inspired by a rather unknown and older book;

2- Strabo claimed that the Phoenicians did not invent their script themselves, but that they had received it from another people.

Especially point -2- should be interesting, but I am not sure if I remember either point right.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 August 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 12 August 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

I have been busy trying to retrace a couple of things that I accidentally deleted when I was in a hurry yesterday.

Maybe someone here knows more of this:

1- Someone claims/said that Tolkien's "The Silmarillion" is inspired by a rather unknown and older book;

2- Strabo claimed that the Phoenicians did not invent their script themselves, but that they had received it from another people.

Especially point -2- should be interesting, but I am not sure if I remember either point right.

.

Found this:

For instance Tacitus states: "The Phoenicians gained the reputation of inventing a form of writing, which they merely received." (Annals, 11.14)


And Diodorus Siculus repeats an already ancient tradition when he writes:

"Men tell us . . . that the Phoenicians were not the first to make the discovery of letters; but that they did no more than change the form of the letters; whereupon the majority of mankind made use of the way of writing them as the Phoenicians devised." (Lib. Hist., Book V)

http://www.atlantisq.../classical.html

[The Puzzler]

I was just guessing but it seems probable that they did just change an already existing alphabet, which of course could be Linear B or some Iberian script even, might not be JUL script letters but still, it's an interesting thought.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 12 August 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

I was just guessing but it seems probable that they did just change an already existing alphabet, which of course could be Linear B or some Iberian script even, might not be JUL script letters but still, it's an interesting thought.

That's what Diodoros said, that the Phoenicians merely 'beautified' an existing script.

That's why I want to know if I am right about Strabo saying the Phoenicians had actually taken over an existing script.

That's not the same as beautifying it.

Btw, we now know Diodoros was right (we now all know of those original pictograms - a cow's head evolving into an aleph, and so on).

Oh, and I don't think the Phoenicians used Linear A/B for developing their script. In that case they must have extremely simplified it, not merely beautified it.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 August 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 12 August 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

That's what Diodoros said, that the Phoenicians merely 'beautified' an existing script.

That's why I want to know if I am right about Strabo saying the Phoenicians had actually taken over an existing script.

That's not the same as beautifying it.

Btw, we now know Diodoros was right (we now all know of those original pictograms - a cow's head evolving into an aleph, and so on).

Oh, and I don't think the Phoenicians used Linear A/B for developing their script. In that case they must have extremely simplified it, not merely beautified it.

.

I think you might mean that Tacitus said what you thought Strabo said: For instance Tacitus states: "The Phoenicians gained the reputation of inventing a form of writing, which they merely received." (Annals, 11.14)

Quote

2- Strabo claimed that the Phoenicians did not invent their script themselves, but that they had received it from another people.

Either way, whoever said it, it was said, at least by Tacitus.

[Abramelin]

OK, so Tacitus said it first, and Strabo quoted him.

Thanks Puzz.

[Abramelin]

About the non-existing connection between the ancient Irish and the ancient Frisians in the OLB:

http://oeralinda.blo...nd the Frisians

As you can see, that post on my blog needs a lot of editing, like including links and so on.

I copied every post from the "Historum" site to my blog, but the links in those posts .won't show up.

Anyway, the message is this: the ancient Irish did know about the ancient Frisians, but the Frisians were being portrayed as pirates and hooligans.

If the OLB is a true account of ancient European - Frisian -  history, then no Frisian/Fryan wants THAT song to be heard in their grand account of their history, right?

And if it's fake, no one wanted to use the Irish legends because they are too complex to be used in a forgery.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 August 2012 - 05:37 PM.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 12 August 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

OK, so Tacitus said it first, and Strabo quoted him.

Thanks Puzz.

Wait a minute... Strabo died before Tacitus was even born, lol!

And I am very sure someone quoted Strabo.

But it could be that that person made a mistake and meant Tacitus.

[Abramelin]

Click the link:

http://oeralinda.blo...connection.html

And scroll down to where you read:

Here is a quote from Volney's book ("Les Ruines", a book in Cornelis Over de Linden's library) :

XIII. Christianity, or the Allegorical Worship of the Sun,
under the cabalistical names of Chrish-en, or Christ, and
Ye-sus or Jesus.


What I found today is again about the OLB Jes-us/Kris-en.Buda/Fo :



The doctrine of the deluge: vindicating the Scriptural account from the ...
- Leveson Venables Vernon-Harcourt, 1838

http://books.google....etiland&f=false

http://www.ebooksrea...bts-w-844.shtml

The image of Hertha, or Her-
thus (in Hebrew Erts, in German Erde, in Eng-
lish Earth), who was held in the highest veneration
by some of the northern tribes of Germany, and
among the rest by our ancestors the Angles, was
probably something of the same sort. Its unattrac-
tive form was indeed guarded from the public gaze
with such jealous care, that the poor slaves, who
had the ill luck to officiate in her mysteries,
were immediately drowned, that they might not
reveal the secret. But the ceremonies were much
the same : she was carried from her sanctuary in
a sacred island on a wagon drawn by cows, and
bathed in a lake.^ The island is supposed to have
been Heligoland, or Holy Island, which was also
called Fosetiland, or Fostan^ ; that is, the land of
Fo, or Buddha, who has left other traces of him-
self among the Germans in the grove of Ba-
duhenna^ which is supposed to be the modern
Holt Fade in Sevenwolden, one of three districts
in Friesland. It is true that the immersion of
Hertha bears a nearer resemblance to the Brah-
minical immersion of Durga in the Ganges, than
to any rite now belonging to Buddha ; but since
the Buddhists are a far more ancient sect, though
their doctrine is not much less corrupted by a false
philosophy, if there be any thing in their creed
sufficient to account for the religious veneration of
Stones, especially when surrounded by water' , it will
be fair to infer that the practice was derived from
them, although it has since become obsolete ; per-
haps because it was adopted by the other sect, whom
they hated for their persecutions and usurpation.

1 Tacitus de Mor. German, c. 40.

^ Barth says, that Foseti was called Fostan ; but that is surely
a mistake : Fostan is, like Hindostan, the name of the country, not
of the person.

^ Tacit. Annal. iv. 73- Henn soli in Keltischen alt heissen
Cena, Hena das Weib. — Barth's Hertha, p. 42.


The point here is:

FO ... (the other name, according to the OLB, for Jes-us/Buda/Kris-en) being somehow related to Fryans/Frisians  (OLB 'Geertmen' / Germans) was already suggested in 1838.

No, actually earlier than 1838: this Vernon-Harcourt is quoting a guy called Barth, and he is quoting him wrong:

"Barth says, that Foseti was called Fostan ; but that is surely
a mistake : Fostan is, like Hindostan, the name of the country, not
of the person.

This is what Barths says according to Vernon-Harcourt himself (LOL):

"which was also called Fosetiland, or Fostan^ ; that is, the land of Fo, or Buddha, "

.

Edited by Abramelin, 13 August 2012 - 07:36 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Well that's interesting.

Forseti (Old Norse "the presiding one," actually "president" in Modern Icelandic and Faroese) is an Æsir god of justice and reconciliation in Norse mythology. He is generally identified with Fosite, a god of the Frisians. Jacob Grimm noted that if, as Adam of Bremen states, Fosite's sacred island was Heligoland, that would make him an ideal candidate for a deity known to both Frisians and Scandinavians, but that it is surprising he is never mentioned by Saxo Grammaticus

Poseidon sounds similar to that - pres-eid-o

Fosite has been suggested to be a loan of Greek Poseidon into pre-Proto-Germanic, perhaps via Greeks purchasing amber (Pytheas is known to have visited the area of Heligoland in search of amber)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fosite


The Land of Fo or Buddha, where they washed away your sins in the water, and began sacrifice to Irtha maybe - the Buddhists must have somehow bought this to the area from India if they originated it.
The island is supposed to have
been Heligoland, or Holy Island, which was also
called Fosetiland, or Fostan^ ; that is, the land of
Fo, or Buddha, who has left other traces of him-
self among the Germans in the grove of Ba-
duhenna^ which is supposed to be the modern
Holt Fade in Sevenwolden, one of three districts
in Friesland.

[Abramelin]

I didn't mention it, because I hoped someone else would notice it....

Abramelin, on 13 August 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

it will
be fair to infer that the practice was derived from
them, although it has since become obsolete ; per-
haps because it was adopted by the other sect, whom
they hated for their persecutions and usurpation.

Doesn't that ring a bell?

[Otharus]

Otharus, on 14 June 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

... our utterly sick culture.

Because two important themes in the OLB are freedom and criticism of (what has become dutch) culture, the following is relevant.

Over the past 10 years, the Dutch state has had to pay 79 million euros in compensation to people who were jailed for crimes they did not commit.
The sum does not include the 200 euros per day it costs to keep a person locked up, warns Professor Emeritus Anton van Kalmthout in the Dutch newspaper Nederlands Dagblad. The Netherlands nearly tops the list of the 27 EU countries for erroneous convictions.
As a result of the crackdown on crime, there has been an increase in the number of people sent to prison who later turned out to be innocent. The total has tripled since 2002.
The amount of compensation for these people was increased in 2009. “A tough stance on crime [in this context: locking up innocents] is fine, but not when it costs so much money,” Professor Van Kalmthout is quoted as saying.
http://www.rnw.nl/af...soning-innocent

[Quaentum]

Abramelin, on 12 August 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

I have been busy trying to retrace a couple of things that I accidentally deleted when I was in a hurry yesterday.

Maybe someone here knows more of this:

1- Someone claims/said that Tolkien's "The Silmarillion" is inspired by a rather unknown and older book;

Evidently "The Silmarillion" is a collection of Tolkien's works started in 1938 by Tolkien but unfinished.  It was finally finished and published by his son after his death.  From what I have read, Tolkiens works had their roots in English history, culture and mythology.  I also seem to remember that as a linguist, he started out creating a language and decided it would be no good unless there was someone to speak it so he started his writings of middle earth.  I don't remember any reference to an older book but it may not be anything I ever came across.

[Abramelin]

Thanks Quaentum.

All I can tell you is this: I vaguely remember it was a woman with an English name who made the remark about Tolkien, and her name consisted of 3 words.

The surname was like Jay, Weigh, something like that.

[Otharus]

Otharus, on 14 August 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

The Netherlands nearly tops the list of the 27 EU countries for erroneous convictions.
[...]
"A tough stance on crime [in this context: locking up innocents] is fine, but not when it costs so much money", Professor Van Kalmthout is quoted as saying.

still thinking about this in the context of the unjust accusations against Over de Linden, Ottema, Verwijs, Haverschmidt, Halbertsma, and others.