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Birther Mania and Why it's a Waste of Time


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#91    ninjadude

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 02:55 AM

View PostRavenHawk, on 01 June 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

The thing is, is that no law should be more than 50 pages.  Obamacare is 2700 pages.

why because certain people are too lazy to read it? or because MOST laws are that large. This blanket statement of yours is completely without merit.

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The rich don't use insurance so why should they be forced to pay for the risky?  It is not their duty to do so.

actually it is - as part of our society.

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What needs to be done is follow some of the ideas that the Republicans put forth,

90 percent of the ACA IS REPLUBICAN IDEAS!!!!!!!!!!!1

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like interstate competition

what the ACA does.

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tort reform,.

analysis has shown that this will not generate any significant change.

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This is something that liberals just don't understand.

Again a blanket statement that you are completely wrong about.

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#92    The Unseen

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 03:32 AM

I say why wait.Kick him out now.


#93    Babe Ruth

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 12:40 PM

Raven

Thanks for the replies to my posts, but I don't find them persuasive.

Obama is no socialist, and he advances the fascist cause.  He favors Wall Street over Main Street, and has blood all over his hands from his illegal military aggression.  He is a fraud and a traitor.


#94    RavenHawk

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 05:21 PM

View Postninjadude, on 02 June 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

I'm not sure where you get this wrong information but it could not be further from the truth. I suspect you have been listening to conspiracy theory websites.
I don’t know where either … I guess I need the government to watch over me and tell me what I should think.

Maybe by studying the various versions of the bill in the first place, I can discern for myself what it says.  Do you think??  You have been drinking the koolaid for too long.

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#95    RavenHawk

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 05:34 PM

View Postninjadude, on 02 June 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

explained here on UM many times by increases on "cadillac" plans.
Since, I hadn’t been around these parts when that came up, I can’t say what is many times.  Although I can guess that you’ve been shown up many times with the facts.  But I do know from my own experiences as to what is what.  What I will miss will be the opportunity to say “I told you so” because later this month, Obamacare will be shot down.

And who do you think are the ones that will get the cadillac plans?  Actually, it’ll be two sources but only one will be able to pay.  One group is the rich, which are doing fine as it is without Obamacare.  And then the ones that can’t get coverage now because the care they need is not covered under the basic quality plan.  They won’t be able to pay the cadillac fines.

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That's not socialism. Nor is it correct. This is insurance regulation not healthcare.
What do you think goes on in Europe?  The same damn thing!  It’s the farthest from insurance regulation.  All you need is reasonable regulation.  Minimal regulation.  Not bureaucratic nightmares.  Obamacare adds more.  Yes, this is Socialism!  Wake up sheeple!!!!

Obamacare sets up a faceless assembly line-like dispensary of care with no interaction between doctor and patient.  Doctor and patient can’t agree on a method of service unless it falls under strict government guidelines.  Most of the time, the care needed will be outside of these guidelines.  And this will trigger end-of-life counseling.  This is not medicine.  This violates the Hippocratic Oath.

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no, it doesn't work that way.
That’s exactly how it works!  You need to spend some time reading even just some of the 6700+ pages of documentation.  Why do you think they have these committees between 9 and 15 administrators established to determine what care you get?  If the law establishes them, someone has to write regulations for them to function.  That’s just adding another level of bureaucracy.  Do you expect anything other than bureaucracy to emanate from bureaucracy?

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you are under the MISTAKEN belief that the law is about healthcare. It regulates the HEALTHCARE INSURANCE.
You can’t have one without the other being too far away.  By saying that Obamacare only regulates the insurance, that that doesn’t somehow affect how services are provided.  If it doesn’t, then what good is the overkill in regulation?  Afterall, it is called Universal Healthcare.  If that is not the case then the government needs to stop painting such a picture and stop misleading the people.  But then we’d be right back at the 10 million or so that can’t afford coverage.  Is it worth dragging down the entire nation just to cover those or should we utilize all our recourses and incorporate faith based charities to help out, like they have been for a very long time.  If you want oversight, we don’t need 6700+ pages of bureaucracy.  The main issue is getting people with pre existing conditions coverage.  Well, let’s work on that.  That definitely won’t take a 2700 page document.

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THERE IS NO "GOVERNMENT CARE" in the ACA. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But, Obamacare still controls the care you get and what doctors can offer, whether it is the basic quality plan or a cadillac plan.  It regulates every possible aspect of Healthcare.  It is the next step to the cradle to grave control.  Like I said before and this is key, most of the people that have no coverage have to use the cadillac plan because their needs are beyond the basic quality plan.  And someone has to pay for it.  And it’ll be those cadillac plans that will strain the resources for the basic quality plans.  Leaving rationing for the basic quality plans.

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No, actually it's because they can't afford it. This has been studied to death. By own kids are a prime example. And yes a SOCIETY has a vested interest in the HEALTH of it's citizens.
You need to stay up with the conversation.  The reason they can’t afford it is because their needs are too great.  They have preexisting conditions that put them out of the scope of the basic quality plan.  This is the time to be honest.  Most of those that are uninsurable are not the ones that our society holds a vested interest in.  This is a poor investment for society.  Most need end-of-life care.  And we need to provide that care, but again, this is something for faith based charities to handle.  This is not a matter for society.  It is a matter for families.

Here’s the irony of this whole law that people are just not aware of.  End-of-life counseling will be required by law for those that reach a certain level of need.  Eventually, the reason for passing this law, to cover the uncoverable will end up just disposing of the unproductive in our society and steal our own personal liberties.  It’ll be a cross between “Logan’s Run” and “Soylent Green”.  It will be the forerunner of the modern day police state.  This is socialism at its finest.

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no it really can't. You are completely misinformed about that as well. This has been studied as well.
Oh?!  The individual can’t change his/her lifestyle without the government nannying them?  Or do you not think that the numbers of obese are on the rise (along with the toxins in the environment and auto immune diseases)?  I’ll say this, Obamacare could possibly work if we had a healthy population.  We don’t and until people get off their sorry **** and work at being healthy, Obamacare is going to drag this nation down.  It’s that Entitlement expectation.  Why should people work if the government is going to just give it to them?  It’ll be just like Greece, Spain, Italy, France, etc.  The people of Europe have been suckered into the nanny mentality and now the governments can’t support the sickness any longer but the people don’t want the austerity measures that will save them.  What do you see as happening?

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#96    RavenHawk

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 05:38 PM

View Postninjadude, on 02 June 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

why because certain people are too lazy to read it?
You are one and the Dems in Congress are others.  They didn’t read it before they passed it.  They never considered the implications.  They just drank the koolaid.  A few of us have actually read at least some of it.  It is the biggest flimflam pulled over on the American people.

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or because MOST laws are that large. This blanket statement of yours is completely without merit.
No.  Most laws are not this large.  This is a monstrosity committed against the American people.

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actually it is - as part of our society.
You miss the meaning here like you have all through this.  It is not their duty to do so.  If they want to be selfish snobs then it is their right.  They have no obligation to anyone.  We should not and cannot impose that on them.  However, because of who they are, they will give on their own to charities and pay-it-forward.  They do it because they want to, not because they are forced to or even expected to.  And that’s key to what it is about being an American.  Not being forced or coerce by the government.  Socialism (any flavor) forces coercion on the people.  And Obamacare is coercion.

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90 percent of the ACA IS REPLUBICAN IDEAS!!!!!!!!!!!1
You’re partially correct.  You may know that you are and that makes you very disingenuous.  The early versions of the bill were indeed chalked full of Republican ideas.  But through several rewrites and revisions, all had been expunged from the final.  Why do you think no Republican voted for it!?

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what the ACA does.
For now it allows it.  It’s more status quo of what we have now (which isn’t true competition), until it can restore single payer back into the law.  If we had real competition, premiums would be going down.  We just have little monopolies.  But, I’m going to predict that the Supreme Court will shoot it down anyway.  This house of cards doesn’t have long to last.  Obama can’t blame the economy or loss of jobs on Bush.  That we are jumping headlong into European style socialism is all Obama’s fault.

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analysis has shown that this will not generate any significant change.
If saving doctors millions is insignificant, then I guess you are right.  More and more doctors are leaving the profession because of it.  Along with chasing perspective students from getting into the field.  At a time when we need more doctors, this law chases off the skill, knowledge and removes the incentive to retain the good doctors.  Plus, it only supports modern medicine.  We are going to need more than the clinical quantitative medicines to combat the auto immune diseases that are on the rise.  This includes obesity and autism.

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Again a blanket statement that you are completely wrong about.
Oh, I got it.  Anything you don’t approve of or understand is a blanket statement.  It is a simple fact that liberals do not understand how the free market works or how the work ethic built this nation.  I’ll stand by that.

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#97    RavenHawk

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 02 June 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

Raven

Thanks for the replies to my posts, but I don't find them persuasive.
I’m not asking you to.  But if my warnings are not heeded then at some point, I’ll say that I told you so.  I’m not the only one that shares my beliefs.  I do know what I’m talking about, but you don’t know me.  If by some miracle that Obamacare is upheld by the Supreme Court and Obama gets reelected, you realize that we’ll never see another budget.  Our military will dwindle as Obama seeks more sources to support Obamacare.  Meanwhile, Europe will continue to spiral and acts of terrorism will increase.  It’ll be the Fall of Rome all over again.  But that’s fine, it’s easy to blow off someone such as me.

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Obama is no socialist, and he advances the fascist cause.  He favors Wall Street over Main Street, and has blood all over his hands from his illegal military aggression.  He is a fraud and a traitor.
We’re arguing over semantics.  If you call it fascism, I won’t argue.  It’s all the same to me.  It is Oligarchy and our Constitution was established without that concept.  Our Founding Fathers gave us two methods to assure Oligarchy doesn’t take hold, but when you attack the people themselves with bribes, the outcome is uncertain.

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#98    ninjadude

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 06:46 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 03 June 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

I don’t know where either …Maybe by studying the various versions of the bill in the first place, I can discern for myself what it says.

Maybe not, since the "bill" has long been voted into LAW.

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#99    ninjadude

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 06:56 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 03 June 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

What do you think goes on in Europe?  The same damn thing!

what does Europe have to do with the ACA? It is not the same damn thing. For instance, in the UK there is a national health service. Nationalized healthcare. That is NOT what the ACA is about. So again you are incorrect and comparing apples and oranges.

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Obamacare sets up a faceless assembly line-like dispensary of care with no interaction between doctor and patient.

it does no such thing. Where do you get this? that is not in the ACA.

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Is it worth dragging down the entire nation just to cover those or should we utilize all our recourses and incorporate faith based charities to help out, like they have been for a very long time.

yes it is worth it. And your faith based charities are have not been working out.

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But, Obamacare still controls the care you get and what doctors can offer, whether it is the basic quality plan or a cadillac plan.  It regulates every possible aspect of Healthcare.

it does no such thing. Where DO YOU GET THIS misinformation?!!

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The reason they can’t afford it is because their needs are too great.  They have preexisting conditions that put them out of the scope of the basic quality plan.  This is the time to be honest.  Most of those that are uninsurable are not the ones that our society holds a vested interest in.  This is a poor investment for society.

No it's not. They don't have preexisting conditions. Some at least, are young people who cannot afford health insurance. They are the future of our society.

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Here’s the irony of this whole law that people are just not aware of.  End-of-life counseling will be required by law for those that reach a certain level of need.

again, that's not the intent, in the law, or anything like that. It's like all the information you've gotten comes from talk radio.

"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!""
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#100    ninjadude

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 07:04 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 03 June 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

They didn’t read it before they passed it.  They never considered the implications.  T

They generally don't read bills. They have staff to read and analyze it for them. And then consider the implications.

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No.  Most laws are not this large.

you made the claim, prove it.

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  Why do you think no Republican voted for it!?

pure politics. The republicans didn't care one whit about the public.

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If saving doctors millions is insignificant, then I guess you are right.

I've posted it here on UM many times. Any real reform  would result in one tenth of one percent of what we spend on healthcare. It's just not significant.

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Along with chasing perspective students from getting into the field.

funny.  And wrong. My nephew just became a doctor. There are plenty of students.

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Plus, it only supports modern medicine.

better than supporting witch doctors, faith healing, medieval and ancient medicine.

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It is a simple fact that liberals do not understand how the free market works or how the work ethic built this nation.  I’ll stand by that.

No it is complete and utter BS. I would say more but this is a family station.

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#101    Order66

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 09:17 PM

Last year Obama called the birth issue "silliness", a "distraction" and a "sideshow":

http://abcnews.go.co...77#.UD00iqAf4YQ

Now the Democrats are up in arms over Mitt Romney's birth certificate comment, saying Mitt is playing the race card.

So can we still say it is silliness, distraction, sideshow? Or now that the Democrats have some vested interest in it, is it suddenly a really important issue that we need to address?

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