18 replies to this topic

[Seeker79]

I have brought this up many times, when people consider spiritual beliefs as illogical, or wishful thinking. Or when the religouse reject their shamanic roots.

Any thoughts

[Its Mii]

I completely agree. I think that is the true essence, that connection, and after that it all follows.

[ChloeB]

Seeker79, on 24 May 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

I have brought this up many times, when people consider spiritual beliefs as illogical, or wishful thinking. Or when the religouse reject their shamanic roots.

Any thoughts

I bet you'd like this book, when we'd talk about books in the past, I meant to tell you about it.  I have it, I liked it so much I read it all in one night.  There's even some things in there about some science that kind of got suppressed and squashed in Russia, about an astrophysicist named Kosirev.  It's supposed to be a true story, the woman who wrote it is an MD, a psychiatrist.  I read it a few years ago, but it kind of blew me away, a lot of it I took to heart more because of who she was.

http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/0062514172

[Bella-Angelique]

A group consciousness will naturally turn towards a member that has the most connections with others. A survival instinct. A member that has few connections with others indicates what we call evil, selfishness, greed, the desire to use and abuse others for their individual desires.
The same can be said about groups. A group that connects the most with other groups will yield the same results.
The horror is that for profit media can mimic this and lead whole populations unto paths of destruction.
Although they do not perhaps realize this, this is also what many atheists fear about for profit organized religious institutions, and they are right to do so.

My personal fury is at the global upper elite group that has formed and separated itself off from the rest of humanity on almost virtually every level at this point. Studies at Berkley show members of the elite showing strong sociopathic tendencies. When ruling elites were confined to individual nations and tribes they were no where near as dangerous to the rest of the human race as the global elites of today are.

[Seeker79]

Bella-Angelique, on 24 May 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

A group consciousness will naturally turn towards a member that has the most connections with others. A survival instinct. A member that has few connections with others indicates what we call evil, selfishness, greed, the desire to use and abuse others for their individual desires.
The same can be said about groups. A group that connects the most with other groups will yield the same results.
The horror is that for profit media can mimic this and lead whole populations unto paths of destruction.
Although they do not perhaps realize this, this is also what many atheists fear about for profit organized religious institutions, and they are right to do so.

My personal fury is at the global upper elite group that has formed and separated itself off from the rest of humanity on almost virtually every level at this point. Studies at Berkley show members of the elite showing strong sociopathic tendencies. When ruling elites were confined to individual nations and tribes they were no where near as dangerous to the rest of the human race as the global elites of today are.

Interesting. I have come to identify western materialism, economic oppression ( really oppression by the false need to consume), and the system the has evolved around it including the religions that embrace its tennants as an actual macro entity bent on the destruction of individualism and free thought. Basically a higher conciousness wanting to turn us all into drones. Really just musings, but when I walk through society I see the oppression of the human spirit into drone like existences. The depressed mom working at the gas station breaks my heart.

Our societies no longer value life, it's values stuff.

[Seeker79]

ChloeB, on 24 May 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

I bet you'd like this book, when we'd talk about books in the past, I meant to tell you about it.  I have it, I liked it so much I read it all in one night.  There's even some things in there about some science that kind of got suppressed and squashed in Russia, about an astrophysicist named Kosirev.  It's supposed to be a true story, the woman who wrote it is an MD, a psychiatrist.  I read it a few years ago, but it kind of blew me away, a lot of it I took to heart more because of who she was.

http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/0062514172

Thanks for that. Since borders went out of business my reading has dropped off I will order it.

[Bella-Angelique]

Seeker79, on 24 May 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

western materialism, economic oppression

It is world wide, not just western and did not just evolve out of the west. Jesus and Buddha can verify that.
Evil can be gauged by the wealth gaps between the elite, the middle class, and the poor.
The larger the wealth gaps the greater the evil and more greatly those who rule are detached from the rest of the group.

[bLu3 de 3n3rgy]

It's signified between those who operate in service to self, ie create gaps by the old divide and conquer rule, and those who try to bridge the gaps by service to unity. Terming it evil and good is too primitive.

Edited to add, at every single social level and class you get an example of the above, even at great aunty alices bridge party of those who negate one way of being, or the other.

Edited by bLu3 de 3n3rgy, 24 May 2012 - 09:30 PM.

[CommunitarianKevin]

Seeker79, on 24 May 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Any thoughts

I have said this time and time again. All types of religion have existed at all times and still exist today. There is no reason to believe this was the first type or the root of anything. He is a reductionist and their arguments do not hold up in the study of religion. This is pure speculation and nothing to support his claim, though it is interesting to think about.

[Seeker79]

Bella-Angelique, on 24 May 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

It is world wide, not just western and did not just evolve out of the west. Jesus and Buddha can verify that.
Evil can be gauged by the wealth gaps between the elite, the middle class, and the poor.
The larger the wealth gaps the greater the evil and more greatly those who rule are detached from the rest of the group.

I think it's much more than a socio economic issue. I believe in freedoms even free enterprise. My degree is in economics. If economic theory is applied properly ( and it never is), it should be our best approach as a whole. Takeing away freedom for more freedom is not the answer... It never works. The real problem is the meams themselves on the individual level. We are perfectly capable of living in a grass hut, but no... We all want the 3,000 sqft house. We all want the steak. Whos ready to eat a stew out of mice?

Conciousness cannot be forced or labeled it has to grow from the individual with personal responsibility otherwise we have deal with the middle of the road solutions like capitalism. Which is bad...but it is our best approach to mediate the vast differences in thoughts and attitudes.  The collective conciousness we have at the moment is very destructive.

[Seeker79]

HuttonEtAl, on 24 May 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

I have said this time and time again. All types of religion have existed at all times and still exist today. There is no reason to believe this was the first type or the root of anything. He is a reductionist and their arguments do not hold up in the study of religion. This is pure speculation and nothing to support his claim, though it is interesting to think about.

I think there is plenty of reason to at least see the parallels. Really religions are just very successful tribal beliefs. Their members were better marketers. Every tribe or group has their own little methos. As he explained. At the basis of all the major religions there seems to be a person or persons who describes very clearly the same things that shamans do. To those who do not know what shaman experience, it might seem as if they are makeing things up to describe natural phenomenon.. And certainly to a degree this is true. But shaman have real visionary experiences that are identical in context to Jesus, buhudda, Mohammad etc etc. they are just not called shaman. But in many ways they serve the same function. Are their experiences invented? Some certainly ( the fakers)... But some I ( and others) can identify as real experiences because we have had them. Since ultimately we all have tribal roots, I think it would be very nievee to say that religions do not begin with forms of shamanism.

[markdohle]

Seeker79, on 24 May 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

I have brought this up many times, when people consider spiritual beliefs as illogical, or wishful thinking. Or when the religouse reject their shamanic roots.

Any thoughts

I agree with this my friend.  I wrote on this subject if you are intererested here is the page:  http://www.unexplain...n.php?id=209957

[CommunitarianKevin]

Seeker79, on 24 May 2012 - 10:53 PM, said:

Since ultimately we all have tribal roots, I think it would be very nievee to say that religions do not begin with forms of shamanism.

I do not agree. You may think it nievee but I would suggest actually looking into the study of religion and you will see where that idea falls on its face. E. B. Tylor and J. G. Frazer made claims almost exactly like this and were quickly disproven. Tyler did define what study anthropology is but this was a very primitive view that has been greatly expanded upon. Their arguments fall apart because they are fundamental reductionists. Look up reductionism and look at the study of religion. Let me know if you need sources.

[Seeker79]

HuttonEtAl, on 24 May 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

I do not agree. You may think it nievee but I would suggest actually looking into the study of religion and you will see where that idea falls on its face. E. B. Tylor and J. G. Frazer made claims almost exactly like this and were quickly disproven. Tyler did define what study anthropology is but this was a very primitive view that has been greatly expanded upon. Their arguments fall apart because they are fundamental reductionists. Look up reductionism and look at the study of religion. Let me know if you need sources.

Well ok then Ill look into it. If you have sources handy go ahead and shoot them over otherwise I can dig it up. thanks.

Edited by Seeker79, 25 May 2012 - 12:21 AM.

[CommunitarianKevin]

Seeker79, on 25 May 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

Well ok then Ill look into it. If you have sources handy go ahead and shoot them over otherwise I can dig it up. thanks.

I do not have pdfs for websites but the books I would recomend are Eight Theories of Religion and Introducing Religion both by Daniel L. Pals. After I move (June 1st) I may even be able to scan the pages but I would recomend simply buying the books if you are that interested in it. You could also try searching for E. B. Tylor and J. G. Frazer.

You can probably find a lot about reductionism just by googling it. Basically what it is is trying to find an answer by bringing it to a single specific point. For example people have tried to find the origin of religion by reducing it down to society, economics, politics, mental disorders, ect. Some ideas even get more specific than this. Their main problem is that it appears that some things, such as religion, cannot be boiled down to a single thing but covers many things. The theories also fall apart when people actually go and study different religions (such as in anthropology.) They find that religion does not "progress" from a starting point to an ending point but that all types are found at all different times. If you want some very basic knowledge it appears wikipedia has some (though I always do question them, but some of their info is good.) Here are a couple wikipedia links that will get you started. Let me know if you need any specifics or have any questions. I may not be able to answer then but as a Religious Studies major this stuff is the basis of my degree...


http://en.wikipedia....s_George_Frazer
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Reductionism