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Sphinx and GP dates from 10 500 BC?


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#796    kmt_sesh

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 01:49 AM

View Postcladking, on 28 June 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Great!

Now all you have to do is find this word used in the 4th dynasty.

"Cultural context" applies to the Great Pyramid builders not later times.

It's tattooed on Zahi Hawass's butt, and as it happens Zahi was one of the foremen of ramps in Dynasty 4. So there!

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#797    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 01:52 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 28 June 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:



r-stA



LOL Damn, you got me. I'm sitting here trying to make sense of it and am not getting anywhere.

LOL. (M) behold (S-TWT) resemble (S-RHR) raise up (PHWY) rear parts

OK maybe I used a dated dictionary lol

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#798    samspade

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:05 AM

I recall J P Houdin  and Bob Brier mentioned a internal ramp at Abu Ghorab.

I think sledges and boats were used.

While videos speculating on what exactly occured may make one wonder if it was done that way or dismiss it.

here's another theory, a series of videos regarding boats and locks , fun to watch  such speculation.

its also at his website
http://www.thepump.o...id=69&Itemid=18


I think some people may think of people back then as backwards.
But judging by their work  in structures like the Great Pyramid it proves they were not stupid.


#799    cladking

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:08 AM

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 28 June 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

was there an overseer of knot tier's or over seer of water proofers or over seer of leak fixers? Or how about over seer of blisters or over seer of water flow.... I'm not mocking you I am asking if there would be a need for a micro managed list of overseers. The pyramid and canal and builders had overseers... yes? Then you would not need over seer of ramps its redundant... know what I mean or is this just one of those conversations where what I would like to discuss further is moot in your eyes. If so that's totally cool with me. I just wanted to pose the plausibility of this as a reason that maybe we could discuss further.

I did not come to this thread to discuss my theory.  It's pretty plain no one wants
to hear about my theory but in the last several months I've gotten a lot more meaning
from the PT so can shoot down all of the orthodox assumptions without even mention-
ing how the pyramid was built.

Suffice to say that no orthodox ideas or beliefs have undermined my theory in any way
and it still stands.

If there's any interest I can start a new thread but I'm trying to hold off on it since it might
become "dated" pretty rapidly.  There's quite a bit of information coming out of the PT now.
I've also learned to use photobucket and might like to include some drawings in the first
post since so many have trouble visualizing it.

All the necessary pieces are there in the evidence.  All the evidence appears pretty much
as it should to support the theory.  There are a few major obstacles to most peoples' und-
erstanding but anyone can follow it who tries.

Right now the subject is ramps.  I have a fairly good debunkment for ramps if anyone would
like to see it.  It's still a work in progress but it absolutely destroys ramps.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#800    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:23 AM

View Postcladking, on 28 June 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:



I did not come to this thread to discuss my theory.  It's pretty plain no one wants
to hear about my theory but in the last several months I've gotten a lot more meaning
from the PT so can shoot down all of the orthodox assumptions without even mention-
ing how the pyramid was built.

Suffice to say that no orthodox ideas or beliefs have undermined my theory in any way
and it still stands.

If there's any interest I can start a new thread but I'm trying to hold off on it since it might
become "dated" pretty rapidly.  There's quite a bit of information coming out of the PT now.
I've also learned to use photobucket and might like to include some drawings in the first
post since so many have trouble visualizing it.

All the necessary pieces are there in the evidence.  All the evidence appears pretty much
as it should to support the theory.  There are a few major obstacles to most peoples' und-
erstanding but anyone can follow it who tries.

Right now the subject is ramps.  I have a fairly good debunkment for ramps if anyone would
like to see it.  It's still a work in progress but it absolutely destroys ramps.
You ignored my entire post. All of my discussion peices were ignored. I never even came close to talking about your theme. I was talking about entirely different items for discussion. Same old. We don't need to discuss it if you don't really want to. Also kmt made a post about the word ramp. Ignore that too though. Doesn't really fly with what you want to say.

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#801    cormac mac airt

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:33 AM

View Postcladking, on 28 June 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Great!

Now all you have to do is find this word used in the 4th dynasty.

"Cultural context" applies to the Great Pyramid builders not later times.

Cultural context would mean from the beginning of Khufu's reign to the end of Menkaure's. Meaning that your Pyramid Text interpretations are also irrelevant.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#802    thewatchman7

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:40 AM

View Postcladking, on 28 June 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

Of course the problem with such a contrived idea is that it doesn't fit the cultural evidence.

There  isn't even any evidence that they had the word "ramp" in the entire culture.

This is fantasy concocted by those who believe the builders were backward and couldn't
come up with something easy.

the idea that the concept of an inclined slope, later to be named "ramps" were not known to these people is ridiculous.
its pretty much the fundamentals of anything, that its easier to push anything downhill than up, but when you have to move things up, a gentle slope is easier than a step. you honestly think people capable of building these magnificent structures didnt know this?


#803    kmt_sesh

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:43 AM

View Postthewatchman7, on 28 June 2012 - 02:40 AM, said:


the idea that the concept of an inclined slope, later to be named "ramps" were not known to these people is ridiculous.
its pretty much the fundamentals of anything, that its easier to push anything downhill than up, but when you have to move things up, a gentle slope is easier than a step. you honestly think people capable of building these magnificent structures didnt know this?

A good point—considering archaeological remains of ramps predate the Great Pyramid.

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#804    cladking

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:48 AM

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 28 June 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

You ignored my entire post. All of my discussion peices were ignored. I never even came close to talking about your theme. I was talking about entirely different items for discussion. Same old. We don't need to discuss it if you don't really want to. Also kmt made a post about the word ramp. Ignore that too though. Doesn't really fly with what you want to say.

I told you I have no intention of proving my contentions in this thread.

Proof that ramps weren't used must wait for the powers that be to use 1970's technology to prove beyond doubt the route of the stones and mode of lifting. They are currently not seeking such information but a virtually air tight case can be made against ramps by observation and logic alone. While innumerable signs point away from ramps I'll try to limit the discussion to only the major points.

Historical accounts say that the stones moved to the pyramid 300' at a time after a priest attached a piece of paper to them. This is inconsistent with ramps. Indeed, there are no historical accounts until more recent times that involve ramps. Herodotus' description almost precisely matches the usage of counterweights. (they were shaped like the dorsal carapace of a grasshopper and composed of "short pieces of wood".) They were built in "battlements" (steps) and the lifting devices could be moved between them.

The culture has no word for "ramps" as applied to lifting objects. There is no such record for the use of this term. While they, no doubt, physically used ramps to lift objects the lack of the word is glaring omission. There is no "god of ramps" and not a single drawing of a ramp from the great pyramid building age.

Far more importantly is there is no overseer of ramp builders, ramp architects, or ramp dismantlers buried anywhere in Egypt. There are no overseers of basket makers, no overseers of harness makers or salve makers. There is not even a single stone dragger or his overseer in evidence. The pyramid town had equal numbers of men and women and was a tiny fraction of the size that would be required to drag stones and build ramps. The town is hardly large enough to supply such a large army with water and supplies far less do all the work themselves. It is little larger than a couple soccer fields. Indeed the builders' town was a mere 300' by 700'. By today's standards this would accomodate only 933 people in an office building. People need far more space where they live. Only about 40% of the population was men so there wouldn't even be nearly enough labor to supply food and water to the thousands necessary to build ramps and drag stones up them. You say ancient people didn't mind being cramped up. Modern sanitation and processes are more efficient than they were in 2750 BC but let's say they were willing to be jammed in cheek to jowel. This only increases occupancy to about 2800 men which is still grossly insufficient. With so many people in close contact disease would spread like wildfire. Since there were storage and production fascilities in the town as well it's highly improbable that there were numbers even approaching these levels
.
Logic says that on a gargantuan project that a highly efficient means must be used. Ramps not only are hugely inefficient due to the high friction and high cost of building and dismantling ramps but also because the weight of the team dragging stones to the pyramid top is simply wasted as they walk back down on already constricted and overused ramps. Getting the manpower necessary to build this requires massive ramps because 55 HP being done by men at extraordinarily low efficiency requires vast numbers of men. They couldn't even see the pyramid to build it under the amount of ramping that would be needed to project so much power. Logic says it would be far easier to just drag stones up the side from the top. Friction is reduced to almost nothing since the route of the stones can be greased. The men don't have to lift their own weight and can pull much more effectively from a level surface. The concept that they must have used ramps is absurd when there are numerous better evidenced and easier means.

Maitaining this level of efficient power with muscles alone would require massive ramps and a means for the workers to get back down. Then there is the impossibility of cladding the structure with any possibly evidenced ramping system. Anything that required cladding stones as they went would leave nothing for ramps to adhere to and any other means would require the ramps to be rebuilt to apply the cladding.

Then comes the physical evidence which just puts a nail into the heart of the ramp ideas. Perhaps most glaringly is the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever for ramps on the pyramid. This wouldn’t be such a glaring void if not for the existence of numerous vertical lines visible in the pyramids. These lines tend to appear in pairs with one on opposite sides. This is consistent with counterweight operations where one line marks the counterweight and the opposite the route of the stones. It is most highly inconsistent with any ramping ideas. Simply stated ramps wouldn’t leave such lines no matter how they were configured except for ones that can be ruled out by logic such as integral ramps. The grooves on the Great Pyramid are also these routes of the stones that the builders called the “ladders of the Gods”.

Simply stated you can see the routes of the stones right up the middles and in two places above the boat museum. You can also see that these pyramids are five step (battlement) pyramids on some pictures but especially in the gravimetric scan half way down the page here;

http://hdbui.blogspot.com/

And you can see them right in the sides of the pyramids as the vertical lines;

Posted Image

I have a truly beautiful depiction of these five steps drawn on the scan but can't get permission to use it. But this is still conclusive proof that it's a five step pyramid which is more than adequate to debunk ramps. They would not have used steps unless it was necessary and the only reason steps might be necessary is that they could lift the stones only 81' 3" at a time.

Each of the great pyramids after Djoser’s were five step pyramids. There is simply no reason to build these as step pyramids unless the height of each step defined the height they were able to lift stones. In order to lift stones to the top they must have needed to be relayed the greatest distance they could lift. Of course this could be as simple as the length of the ropes by which they lifted them up the side. No matter the actual reason it simply isn’t consistent with ramps. It is highly consistent with counterweights and using water for ballast since the geyser sprayed 80’ and this is the height of the steps. It might be consistent with locks that lifted 81' 3" at a time or any water or ballast lifting system limited by natural laws or infrastruture/ materiel concerns. It is not consistent with ramps.

Ramps can’t explain the various infrastructure all around and within the pyramid. They are inconsistent with the history, culture, logic, physical evidence, and the evidence left by the actual on-site builders.

Perhaps the greatest inconsistency is the cultural evidence right on site. In the pyramid builders cemetery is the “Overseer of the Boats of Neith”. This would be the loader on the south side in all probability but it could have nothing to do with ramps. There are canal overseers, overseers of metal shops, director of draftsmen, inspector of craftsmen, controller of a boat crew, controller of the side of the pyramid, inspector of metal workers and a host of other jobs that reflect a sophisticated and intelligent culture. Most tellingly is that there is a “Weigher/ Reckoner”. This job would be critical on a device that was said to be sensitive enough to tell the difference in weight of a “heavy heart” from a feather. They found a standard weight in the queens “air siphon” and a hook.

In point of fact there simply isn’t anything consistent with ramps. While the evidence isn’t deep it is very broad that counterweights were used and the vertical lines on the great pyramids are simply sufficient to say ramps are debunked. This scale is tipped so much you’d think there’s nothing on the ascender at all. There were no ramps. They are debunked.

ALL the great pyramids are five step pyramids (S1 is five steps built on a mastaba). These five steps are the fingers of Geb and the cow was his wing.

I can also add that the literal meaning of the Pyramid Texts has led me to see these things. The literal meaning of the PT will prove to be key in understanding the pyramids and their builders in my opinion.

While ramps are debunked what we do have is evidence that water was used everywhere. The great pyramid are built right on top of water collection devices and surrounded by a cofferdam. There's one pretty obvious lock lying along the route which the western cliff face countwerweight appears to have dragged stones. There is water erosion in canals leading away from the pyramid base.

We need to do the science to determine the exact means by which the water was used to build.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#805    cladking

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:50 AM

View Postthewatchman7, on 28 June 2012 - 02:40 AM, said:


the idea that the concept of an inclined slope, later to be named "ramps" were not known to these people is ridiculous.
its pretty much the fundamentals of anything, that its easier to push anything downhill than up, but when you have to move things up, a gentle slope is easier than a step. you honestly think people capable of building these magnificent structures didnt know this?

Isn't that ironic.

The real culture still doesn't contain ramps.

Ramps are excluded by the cultural evidence.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#806    cladking

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:52 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 28 June 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

A good point—considering archaeological remains of ramps predate the Great Pyramid.

It doesn't wash.

There is no evidence that ramps were used to lift stones and the word "ramp" doesn't exist in the culture.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#807    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 02:54 AM

Well clad ol chap we know they made baskets... LOL
the rest well you kinda went out on your own....

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#808    thewatchman7

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 03:15 AM

View Postcladking, on 28 June 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

Isn't that ironic.

The real culture still doesn't contain ramps.

Ramps are excluded by the cultural evidence.

tell me your joking?

like... any mound of earth used to move ANYTHING could be considered a ramp.
wait... this is just silly, you think they had steps but not ramps?


#809    samspade

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 03:36 AM

View Postthewatchman7, on 28 June 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:

tell me your joking?

like... any mound of earth used to move ANYTHING could be considered a ramp.
wait... this is just silly, you think they had steps but not ramps?

A mound could be considered a ramp. and steps - like in step pyramid for example makes me wonder about things,

When one looks to word egyptian word ret we see.

[ret] terrace, steps, stairway, the great stairs.

Seems like Egyptian ret and ramp could have the same meaning when thinking in terms of steps or stairs.

heres the english definition of ramp

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ramp

1. An inclined surface or roadway connecting different levels.
2. A mobile staircase by which passengers board and leave an aircraft.
3. A concave bend of a handrail where a sharp change in level or direction occurs, as at a stair landing


#810    cladking

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 03:40 AM

View Postthewatchman7, on 28 June 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:

tell me your joking?

like... any mound of earth used to move ANYTHING could be considered a ramp.
wait... this is just silly, you think they had steps but not ramps?

It's about "cultural context".

We know the sun shone but that doesn't prove they had solar sails to lift stones
on the great pyramids.

Ramps as a means to lift stones on tall structures being built do not exist in the
cultural context.

Of course there were ramps and one is even mentioned in the PT as a means to
move Gods to a different level.  But there's no mention anywhere of ramps for
pyramid building and no evidence for it.  All we really know is what exists and ramps
do not fit.

Squeezing them in where they don't belong could give us a very warped picture of
the men and women who built G1.  If you take the wholly unevidenced ideas that
these people were changeless and used ramps out of the equation then the real
picture, the real cultural context emerges.  Take out the idea that these were tombs
which is denied by the PT and the last support for the idea the people were bump-
kins is removed.  This is all of orthodox theory lying in a pile of dust.  It opens the
door to all those fringe theories that scarce everyone so much.

It means everyone's guess is as good as everyone else's until they get out there
and do some science.  But when they get out there ramps will already be debunked.
They can't be brought back to life.  "Debunked" simply means they will never find
evidence for ramps because there were no ramps.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.




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