49 replies to this topic

[WilliamW]

Hi

From another thread (Does god have a sense of humor) I read this and it got me looking into it.

Bella-Angelique, on 25 May 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

God has a sense of humor and understands when people are making jokes. The Angel of the Lord however has no sense of humor whatsoever.
This is why Moses and the others were warned by the Lord to be careful what they said within hearing of the Angel of the Lord, because he takes everything literally, word for word. To me the Angel of the Lord sounds like a robot or Spock of Star Trek. Scary dude.

So I did a quick search to see what the bible has to tell us about the AOTL:

Hagar and Ishmael

Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian slave named Hagar;  so she said to Abram, “The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her.”
Abram agreed to what Sarai said.


Note:  Great men of 'The Lord' seem to have a higher authority - 'The Wife'

So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.

Note:  Obviously these things don't happen while 'sleeping'

When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress.  Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my slave in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the Lord judge between you and me.”

Notes:  Is Sarai correct here?
1: It was her idea.
2:  Hagar is her slave so therefore why is she complaining and blaming her husband for the way her slave is treating her?
3:  Obviously Hagar is behaving obnoxiously because she has been elevated in status and is likely quiet young.
4: If Abram had told Saria that he didn't think that was a great idea, would he have suffered her complaint for not taking up the offer? Did it matter to Abram?  The Wife offers a perky young slave...why argue?
5: Saria invokes 'The Lord' into the fray.  What did 'The Lord' have to do with the decisions made in this unfolding drama?

“Your slave is in your hands, ” Abram said. “Do with her whatever you think best.” Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.

Notes:  Abram avoids any responsibility in his part of the situation unfolding.  It is a matter between the 'girls' and that is his judgment.  He puts the onus upon Saria (fair enough) to make the choices and decisions.

1: Abram does not consider that Hagar is now his 'Wife' too.
2: Saria is of the same opinion
3: Hagar may well be resentful that her status has not been recognised...she is being used and still treated as a slave.  (did she even have a say in the matter?  Is it impossibly to organise for and to rape someone who is considered a slave?)
4: Sarai ‘mistreats’ Hagar (no kidding!) This mistreating is bad enough that the slave runs away – it is likely that the mistreating would have been severe enough to attempt a miscarriage.


…In steps the “Angel of the Lord.”

Note: Did this occur because Saria had invoked ‘The Lord’ to judge between her (actions/reactions) and Abram’s?


The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. And he said, “Hagar, slave of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?”

Notes: Rhetorical questions.  These are designed to get the person thinking about their situation. The AOTL knew the answers…we have a pregnant girl who is confused and resentful and unrecognised and has had no say in the decisions of others which have affected her.  The mistreatment from Saria is enough for her to seek escape so was likely life threatening.
Also, both Abram’s and Saria’s behaviour is ‘in the name of’ The Lord.


“I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered.

Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.”

Note: This advice to submit is a logical one pertaining to survival.  In this Hagar has to swallow her pride and somehow heal the riff for the sake of her own good health and survival.
Saria is not about to be usurped by a slave and will commit murder if necessary to make that point.
Hagar needs the protection of her owners.

The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”

Note: This is said to give Hagar the status she desires from being made pregnant by the leader of the tribe…and to help her to return in humility and submit.

The angel of the Lord also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
    and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,
    for the Lord has heard of your misery.

Note: Indeed – and thus sent his angel.

He will be a wild donkey of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
    toward all his brothers. ”

Q: So who are the descendants of Ishmael?  Are they still around as a people or did they become extinct?

Note: This has to do with ‘ripple effect’ and intention of actions.  The whole process began with no ‘consulting the Lord’ in the first instance and then Saria evoked the Lord to judge between her actions and Abram’s after the fact…

She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me, ” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”

Note: Regardless now of how other might treat her, Hagar will never forget that ‘the Lord’ (who sees but is not seen) has granted her what few have been granted – a visitation in the form of his angel.

So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.

Note:  All other details are obviously irrelevant…Obviously Hagar returned and repented and changed her attitude and came under the protection of the tribe again, completed the pregnancy and gave birth to a son, just as the angel said – and also just as the angel predicted, the boy was called “Ishmael”

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Many theologians suggest that the Angel in this context was the same one who swept down over Egypt.

[Bella-Angelique]

Wearer of Hats, on 26 May 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Many theologians suggest that the Angel in this context was the same one who swept down over Egypt.

Yes, that is him.

Exodus - Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.  Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not, for he will not pardon your transgressions

Programmed, no slack. No joking around with that one.

[WilliamW]

Bella-Angelique, on 26 May 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

programmed, no slack. No joking around with that one.

Programmed?

[Rlyeh]

WilliamW, on 26 May 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

Note: This advice to submit is a logical one pertaining to survival.  In this Hagar has to swallow her pride and somehow heal the riff for the sake of her own good health and survival.
Saria is not about to be usurped by a slave and will commit murder if necessary to make that point.
Hagar needs the protection of her owners.

Now it's for her good health and protection? What were you saying about being mistreated before?

Quote

Note:  All other details are obviously irrelevant…Obviously Hagar returned and repented and changed her attitude and came under the protection of the tribe again, completed the pregnancy and gave birth to a son, just as the angel said – and also just as the angel predicted, the boy was called “Ishmael”

Repented for what?

[Mr Walker]

In general, "angels of the lord," are just that. One can be visited by god directly, or more commonly by angels. However, in my cosmology, for logical reasons and from experience with them, angels are like us.They have free will. But they are primarily( when we meet them) physical messengers who adapt/adopt the shape or form most suited to their particular role. They have a job to do and approach it very efficiently and well prepared. They may come as human beings when stealth is required or as powerful entities when; power shock and awe is required. In either case they retain their basic abilities, such as being able to walk through walls or materialise /dematerialise at will.

Often they come as beings of light. I agree, from experience, with bella. That, because, when we meet them, angels are messengers sent on a task by god, and because they are subservient to god in status, they dont tend to show the humour which god does. They are more like lawyers and accountants, whereas god is the CEO. He can afford to mess about a  bit. It's his universe, after all.

Edited by Mr Walker, 27 May 2012 - 05:47 AM.

[WilliamW]

Now it's for her good health and protection? What were you saying about being mistreated before?

Yes.  It is about understanding how the human drama works.  I haven't read the story further to see if she is still mistreated.  In todays day and age there is a greater understanding than in tribal days Rlyeh' The thread itself is about "What the Angel of the Lord Is. rather than how the characters of the story were behaving according to modern sensibilities...although it is duly noted and might beg the question 'were they behaving as their god had ordered' or was their god still processing the data through a more observing and less interactive role?

It would seem that with Hagars return, something changed in the attitude of her owners as well.  She was a slave and alone by all account.  She must have been believed in recounting her story that the AOTL had chosen her for visitation and instruction.  Enough it seems, to acknowledge the place of meeting with a name and have her story included in the official books.


Repented for what?

Survival and support?  Acknowledgement? She was counselled to submit and promised an off-spring which  would propagate and be uncountable in number...the status in that would have been compelling...also that her off-spring would cause great problems for his brothers.  Sounds like a dysfunctional family for sure.  Perhaps the thought that this would be like far-seeing vengeance also helped Hagar to return?

Also to note is that later ( as I read while doing quick reserch on this subject this morning ) 'The Lord' had made a promise that Abram and Sarai would bear children and this did happen many years later, according to the story.

Perhaps this promise happened before the Hagar incident and perhaps it shows that Abram and Sarai where both in doubt as to the ability of their 'Lord' to make good the promise - as they were getting old and couldn't see how it was possible...it seems to be one reason why Sarai came up with the idea re Hagar...

[WilliamW]

Mr Walker, on 27 May 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

In general, "angels of the lord," are just that. One can be visited by god directly, or more commonly by angels. However, in my cosmology, for logical reasons and from experience with them, angels are like us.They have free will. But they are primarily( when we meet them) physical messengers who adapt/adopt the shape or form most suited to their particular role. They have a job to do and approach it very efficiently and well prepared. They may come as human beings when stealth is required or as powerful entities when; power shock and awe is required. In either case they retain their basic abilities, such as being able to walk through walls or materialise /dematerialise at will.

Often they come as beings of light. I agree, from experience, with bella. That, because, when we meet them, angels are messengers sent on a task by god, and because they are subservient to god in status, they dont tend to show the humour which god does. They are more like lawyers and accountants, whereas god is the CEO. He can afford to mess about a  bit. It's his universe, after all.

An interesting POV Mr Walker. I did read a page of notes when searching the net this morning which suggest that this particular angel is different from other types.

here:

http://www.ivpress.c...exc/1423-8c.php

I have not read anything which says this god (the Lord) visits anyone personally.  Please share your information because it may be very relevant to this topic.

They are not 'spirits' but physical yet can move through solid objects and perform 'magic' which as we know - has a mesmerizing effect on the audience.  

We don't know if ET is real either, but there is no reason to think that if it does, that it is not as capable of performing these tricks...which might simply be science which we have no knowledge about.  So we may be speaking about ETs pretending (acting) as gods but for what reason(s)?

Edited by WilliamW, 27 May 2012 - 07:08 AM.

[Mr Walker]

Quote

name='WilliamW' timestamp='1338102462' post='4308545
An interesting POV Mr Walker. I did read a page of notes when searching the net this morning which suggest that this particular angel is different from other types.

here:

http://www.ivpress.c...exc/1423-8c.php

Yes there are a number of occasions in the bible where god manifests himself. sometimes as god the father ie as with moses and abraham, and sometimes in the form of an angel. This is thought by some to be the arch angel michael, who is also held by some to be another avatar of christ. This view is based, as you point out, on the language and titles used in different pparts of the bible for; god, christ, and michael, or the angel of the lord.

Quote

I have not read anything which says this god (the Lord) visits anyone personally.  Please share your information because it may be very relevant to this topic.

They are not 'spirits' but physical yet can move through solid objects and perform 'magic' which as we know - has a mesmerizing effect on the audience.

God, the father, appears, as I said, a few times in the bible. Of course god, the christ, appears from genesis to revelation, apart from his time on earth as a man.

Angels apply either natural ability, or technology, to behave in  a very similar fashion to god. They can just appear before you as a pillar of light,  be invisible yet speak to you and physicallypush you around, or appear as very beautiful human beings. In any state they can teleport and materialise/ dematerialise, just as effectively as the characters on star trek. My first angel appeared almost identical to the transmat beam from star trek. A 2 metre high pillar of very bright light from which a voice emanated.  They can shape energy and matter to create or destroy objects, and can interact with the rest of the natural world like you or I.

I am honestly not sure that angels are actually a different species of being from god. I suspect they are physical manifestations or avatars/extensions of god's energy form into material state.

Quote

We don't know if ET is real either, but there is no reason to think that if it does, that it is not as capable of performing these tricks...which might simply be science which we have no knowledge about.  So we may be speaking about ETs pretending (acting) as gods but for what reason(s)?

Of course god and angels are ETs. They arent from this planet are they?
And I know absolutely that they are;  real, physical sapient self aware entities, and  interested in individuals and the race of humanity. From my own experiences they seek to keep us alive and to evolve us (through teaching and education) enough so that our wisdoms catch up with our knowledge and we do not destroy ourselves. Also we must learn to be good galactic citizens before we are allowed out to play with the rest of the civilixzations in our galaxy. Some races never manage this, and either self destruct or are interdicted from contact with the heavens until they become extinct. Its possible that some even have to be destroyed because they manage to get off planet without learning civilized behaviour, athough i have no evidence that this is so. God is, among other things, in charge of civilizations in our part of the universe. That includes educating, protecting, but also disciplining and managing us

A lot of this is inferred from how god deals with me, and what he teaches me and the particular roles angels have played in my life. But one can also see this by reading dispassionately many of the "contact records" between god and man which form the basis of what have become holy books like the bible.

Edited by Mr Walker, 27 May 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[WilliamW]

Yes there are a number of occasions in the bible where god manifests himself. sometimes as god the father ie as with moses and abraham, and sometimes in the form of an angel. This is thought by some to be the arch angel michael, who is also held by some to be another avatar of christ. This view is based, as you point out, on the language and titles used in different pparts of the bible for; god, christ, and michael, or the angel of the lord.

I think the more honest expression is 'a god manifests himself'. It is not proven that this god is not an impostor...best to keep an open mind on this, certainly if for no other reason than the obvious inconsistencies and contradictions.
These might well be sourced from the human tendency to elaborate and 'bend the shape of GOD to suit the agenda to control and influence.
Indeed, there are different titles, but this may point to different gods all vying for a piece of the human pie.
Certainly this is a possibility which needs to be examined.

God, the father, appears, as I said, a few times in the bible.

I can't say I am a student of all things biblical, but can't remember 'God The Father' manifesting himself to anyone.
If you can assist me with some links, that would be appreciated.

Angels apply either natural ability, or technology, to behave in  a very similar fashion to god.
They can just appear before you as a pillar of light,  be invisible yet speak to you and physicallypush you around, or appear as very beautiful human beings. In any state they can teleport and materialise/ dematerialise, just as effectively as the characters on star trek. My first angel appeared almost identical to the transmat beam from star trek. A 2 metre high pillar of very bright light from which a voice emanated.  They can shape energy and matter to create or destroy objects, and can interact with the rest of the natural world like you or I.

Whichever, it is an unknown how they accomplish this.  Perhaps the natural ability enabled them to create technology to do this.  However who is to say that they do not play 'both' parts with equal ease?
Obviously they shape shift to accomplish whatever agenda they have.

Furthermore - once the separation is removed - these apparitions may be no more or less than aspects of our self.

I am honestly not sure that angels are actually a different species of being from god. I suspect they are physical manifestations or avatars/extensions of god's energy form into material state.

Indeed, this could also be the case in regard to human beings. The most telling example is that in order for the Gods (yes it has to be plural due to the evidence submitted in the Bible...) in order for their to be animation, an aspect of those beings had to 'breath something of themselves into the form.  "Gods Energy".

Of course god and angels are ETs. They arent from this planet are they?

Are they from any planet?
Maybe.  We could observe the nature of evolution and come to a conclusion that a specie developed on another planet and perhaps were the 'first born' of the universe and had absolutely no 'gods' 'angels' etc to influence or otherwise interfere with their evolution.
​Perhaps they discovered a way to escape their planet it may not even be in the convention manner that we assume - through using space craft.  it is plausible that there cosmology had extended to understanding that they were in the physical universe and could move about it with relative ease and thus 'what to do with this ability'  and seek out far less evolved planets and 'play god' to those younger specie.

And I know absolutely that they are;  real, physical sapient self aware entities, and  interested in individuals and the race of humanity. From my own experiences they seek to keep us alive and to evolve us (through teaching and education) enough so that our wisdoms catch up with our knowledge and we do not destroy ourselves. Also we must learn to be good galactic citizens before we are allowed out to play with the rest of the civilixzations in our galaxy. Some races never manage this, and either self destruct or are interdicted from contact with the heavens until they become extinct. Its possible that some even have to be destroyed because they manage to get off planet without learning civilized behaviour, athough i have no evidence that this is so. God is, among other things, in charge of civilizations in our part of the universe. That includes educating, protecting, but also disciplining and managing us

Ah well - what you are suggesting fits quiet well with what i am suggesting.  However, one of those hurdles which will determine a specie survival would have to be learning to no longer have Gods.  This is because those 'teachers' and members of galactic civilizations are not our gods at all.  They are highly advanced citizens of the Universe.
when we can stop worshiping them, fearing them, placing them upon imaginary thrones ruling over us, we can become what we truly are - equal to them.  Just younger.


A lot of this is inferred from how god deals with me, and what he teaches me and the particular roles angels have played in my life. But one can also see this by reading dispassionately many of the "contact records" between god and man which form the basis of what have become holy books like the bible.

From my own understanding of 'how god deals with me' (strange expression) I know this much.  No real 'god' insists upon being enthroned and worshiped by 'subjects'. This is always and ever the role of 'false gods' - but do false gods truly exist outside of human invention?

[Realm]

That Angel is the reaper, and he is to be feared.

[WilliamW]

Realm, on 28 May 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

That Angel is the reaper, and he is to be feared.

Fear death why so?  I will fear no angel.

[Mr Walker]

WilliamW, on 27 May 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Yes there are a number of occasions in the bible where god manifests himself. sometimes as god the father ie as with moses and abraham, and sometimes in the form of an angel. This is thought by some to be the arch angel michael, who is also held by some to be another avatar of christ. This view is based, as you point out, on the language and titles used in different pparts of the bible for; god, christ, and michael, or the angel of the lord.

I think the more honest expression is 'a god manifests himself'. It is not proven that this god is not an impostor...best to keep an open mind on this, certainly if for no other reason than the obvious inconsistencies and contradictions.
These might well be sourced from the human tendency to elaborate and 'bend the shape of GOD to suit the agenda to control and influence.
Indeed, there are different titles, but this may point to different gods all vying for a piece of the human pie.
Certainly this is a possibility which needs to be examined.

God, the father, appears, as I said, a few times in the bible.

I can't say I am a student of all things biblical, but can't remember 'God The Father' manifesting himself to anyone.
If you can assist me with some links, that would be appreciated.

Angels apply either natural ability, or technology, to behave in  a very similar fashion to god.
They can just appear before you as a pillar of light,  be invisible yet speak to you and physicallypush you around, or appear as very beautiful human beings. In any state they can teleport and materialise/ dematerialise, just as effectively as the characters on star trek. My first angel appeared almost identical to the transmat beam from star trek. A 2 metre high pillar of very bright light from which a voice emanated.  They can shape energy and matter to create or destroy objects, and can interact with the rest of the natural world like you or I.

Whichever, it is an unknown how they accomplish this.  Perhaps the natural ability enabled them to create technology to do this.  However who is to say that they do not play 'both' parts with equal ease?
Obviously they shape shift to accomplish whatever agenda they have.

Furthermore - once the separation is removed - these apparitions may be no more or less than aspects of our self.

I am honestly not sure that angels are actually a different species of being from god. I suspect they are physical manifestations or avatars/extensions of god's energy form into material state.

Indeed, this could also be the case in regard to human beings. The most telling example is that in order for the Gods (yes it has to be plural due to the evidence submitted in the Bible...) in order for their to be animation, an aspect of those beings had to 'breath something of themselves into the form.  "Gods Energy".

Of course god and angels are ETs. They arent from this planet are they?

Are they from any planet?
Maybe.  We could observe the nature of evolution and come to a conclusion that a specie developed on another planet and perhaps were the 'first born' of the universe and had absolutely no 'gods' 'angels' etc to influence or otherwise interfere with their evolution.
​Perhaps they discovered a way to escape their planet it may not even be in the convention manner that we assume - through using space craft.  it is plausible that there cosmology had extended to understanding that they were in the physical universe and could move about it with relative ease and thus 'what to do with this ability'  and seek out far less evolved planets and 'play god' to those younger specie.

And I know absolutely that they are;  real, physical sapient self aware entities, and  interested in individuals and the race of humanity. From my own experiences they seek to keep us alive and to evolve us (through teaching and education) enough so that our wisdoms catch up with our knowledge and we do not destroy ourselves. Also we must learn to be good galactic citizens before we are allowed out to play with the rest of the civilixzations in our galaxy. Some races never manage this, and either self destruct or are interdicted from contact with the heavens until they become extinct. Its possible that some even have to be destroyed because they manage to get off planet without learning civilized behaviour, athough i have no evidence that this is so. God is, among other things, in charge of civilizations in our part of the universe. That includes educating, protecting, but also disciplining and managing us

Ah well - what you are suggesting fits quiet well with what i am suggesting.  However, one of those hurdles which will determine a specie survival would have to be learning to no longer have Gods.  This is because those 'teachers' and members of galactic civilizations are not our gods at all.  They are highly advanced citizens of the Universe.
when we can stop worshiping them, fearing them, placing them upon imaginary thrones ruling over us, we can become what we truly are - equal to them.  Just younger.


A lot of this is inferred from how god deals with me, and what he teaches me and the particular roles angels have played in my life. But one can also see this by reading dispassionately many of the "contact records" between god and man which form the basis of what have become holy books like the bible.

From my own understanding of 'how god deals with me' (strange expression) I know this much.  No real 'god' insists upon being enthroned and worshiped by 'subjects'. This is always and ever the role of 'false gods' - but do false gods truly exist outside of human invention?

i see youre having the same problem on this new site inserting quotes tha ti have.  I cant separate out your bits from above so i will rely to the whole, in order. First i agree with you that "god" is just a human label applied to an entity with certain parameters  Same as with a dog.  The entity i know fits nicely inside those parameters.  As i put it, " If it walks like a god, talks like a god, demonstrates the powers of a god and takes an interest in you, then a prudent man will address it as god" There is almos tcertianly only one god entity i our local universe There isnt room for more than one in terms of power and authority.But certainly our god may be one of a species of gods .
God the father manifests to moses abraham etc fromm memory in differnt forms such as a burning bush. on mt sinai he forbids any one else to come up the mountein less they be blinded by is "real? appearance There is one story in the Ot where a bloke takes in a visito for the night and wrestles with him At first he thinks the entity is an angel but the language of the story makes it clear he was wrestling with god in a human form. MAny of the people in the OT had god manifest to them in vision, or via speech, if not in physical form and shape. And once his finger appeared and wrote on a wall,  if i remember right, in words of fire.


And yes, god resides in all of us and we are connected to the part of god which exists beyond us.  We can ride his self awareness around the world and the universe, and into other people's minds and thoughts.

  Some of us can heal; others have difernt gifts of this part of god inside us. Christians call it the holy spirit but it is the natural energy of god.
The network of which god is a physical part extends right to the centre of our galaxy at least, and so It is logical and probable that it comes fromm beyond our planet. It is much older tha humanity which is a very new sapient species in the universe An d god connects to all other sapient species some of whom ar much more advanced and older tha us, via either a form of technology or again, an evolved naturalla ability  The trouble from a present human perspective is tha the science /technology is so advanced as to appear like magic to us. Certainly, while i can distinguish its nature and how it might work, it does appear totally integrated into the physical entity of god so that he only has to think, to make the technology perform Still, humans are approaching this abilty today.

I agree that by the time we evolve the wisdom to survive and leave our planet we wil realise these entities are real and physical but we still might call them our gods, Eventually it will become our turn to mentor emerging races and we will become as gods to them.

God does not ask me to worship him , or in my experience for any human to worship him. That is a human choice and decision  not gods will.
God is a; friend, mentor, companion, father/brother. He is both a part of me and a part of my wider world.  god asks me to use my talents, including my mind , to be all that i can be. To continue to learn, evolve and grow; to be creative not destructive; to enhance the potential of the universe, and to do all i can to help my fellow human beings and my planet. That's a big enough job, without having to worship him. I respect his nature and his power, his love and concern for me, and his protection and mentoring of my life. Eventually god wants us to grow up into adult beings and to learn wisdoms.  While each of   us, individually, must do this, we will die, and so we must pass on and accumulate those wisdoms, until they become our species default.

[WilliamW]

Well if you find that evidence where this particular biblical God actually show itself to someone, that would be interesting.

One thing you mentioned...lets see...

Certainly, while i can distinguish its nature and how it might work, it does appear totally integrated into the physical entity of god so that he only has to think, to make the technology perform...

...reminds me of a book I read and enjoyed called "The Jesus Incident" which involved a spaceship playing the role of God over a planetary specie.  Wor Ship became something else.
Perhaps true 'worship' has to do with simply expressing Love to one another?  Rather than centering it on something 'out there' invisible and demanding.
The idea of throne sitting gods and knee bending humans is most likely of human making god in their own image...like "This is what I would do if I were God." type mentality?
I understand that referring to 'God' as a 'he - a male a father also has something to so with the human image thing.

Perhaps one day humans will evolve and become 'God' over some other specie, having learned from our own experience the best way to go about this.

[Mr Walker]

WilliamW, on 29 May 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

Well if you find that evidence where this particular biblical God actually show itself to someone, that would be interesting.

One thing you mentioned...lets see...

Certainly, while i can distinguish its nature and how it might work, it does appear totally integrated into the physical entity of god so that he only has to think, to make the technology perform...

...reminds me of a book I read and enjoyed called "The Jesus Incident" which involved a spaceship playing the role of God over a planetary specie.  Wor Ship became something else.
Perhaps true 'worship' has to do with simply expressing Love to one another?  Rather than centering it on something 'out there' invisible and demanding.
The idea of throne sitting gods and knee bending humans is most likely of human making god in their own image...like "This is what I would do if I were God." type mentality?
I understand that referring to 'God' as a 'he - a male a father also has something to so with the human image thing.

Perhaps one day humans will evolve and become 'God' over some other specie, having learned from our own experience the best way to go about this.

Whenever there is an imbalance of power the  less powerful seek protection from the powerful to survive. Worship is in one sense a form of this. Howevr it can also be a gift based on respect. Either way it is not what god wants, expects, or demands of humans.

He seeks connection to us so that we can be  all that we can be, rather than incomplete versions of ourselves. He loves us and wants the best for each of us, and for humanity as a race. But he is old and wise, and a realist. And by the way, no, god as a species  or an individual is not male or female in the terms of human biology.

  He manifests in whatever form best facilitates our understanding of and relationshup with him.  In matriachal societies god will often be seen as female and vice versa.

But god is of a human spirit and we are of gods spirit, and so we can unite as one. We are in the image of god, in the same way all self aware sentient beings are in the image of god At present on earth there is only one such entity (humans) but that will change.  Such entities can be any organic form, of even a machine intelligence. Artificial intelligences of human ability or beyond will have souls, as humans do, and will recognise and create gods as we do. They will be just as capable of all the forms of worship and connection to god as humas are. ANd when dolphins or apes become self aware and sapient, they too will have these abilities and qualities it is a part of the evolved nature and functionof human level sapience tha tthis is so.

Gods intelligent self awareness  can link a human mind with any other sapient mind in the universe. That can be the person standing next to you, or on a planet in a distant galaxy.  Once we are self aware and sapient, we can recognise god and connect our sapience with his, and via his, any where we wish.

Time at least in the past, is no limitation, as god's memories are long and we can link to them to travel back to past times both on our planet and elsewhere. Sometimes god will provide a link which shows us very clear visions of potential futures. Such futures are not fixed because there IS no one fixed future, and one of the reasons god may provide such links is so we can choose, change, and optimise, our actual future from a number of potential ones.