61 replies to this topic

[DieChecker]

lightly, on 28 May 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Cool L.   I've seen pictures of these dolmen before.  Dolmen are in many parts of the world , except the Americas
... i think
i like your idea DieChecker,   the holes are the perfect size for souls or spirits to come and go.  ... but , then again, small animals too.. that fact makes me doubt they would be used as tombs  ?

Maybe they were a "ashes to ashes" kind of people who actually wanted the animals to eat up the bodies, but have to leave the bones behind. Foxes, cats, rodents and such could get in and eat up the meat and nibble the bones, but the big scavangers, like wolves and bear would not be able to munch up the bones.

the L, on 28 May 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

I dont have problems with small people hypothesis. Im sure that all that myths about giants were true, at least one. Flo is fine example who spicies can be different.

Thanks Die.
I dont think it was tomb. Im sure that was a shelter or storage. Would you rather live in your house or burry dead there and go live outside? Could be but I dont think its  very possible. I was thinking that would be usefull as prison, punishment at first

They must have been very hard to build for being so small. Only a powerful person could have such a thing made. That is what leads me to think they are tombs, rather then homes.

Surely the local people could build wooden homes and/or stone wall homes.

For "little people" even living in a cave would be better. These stone homes for little people would draw big people. Rather then protecting the little people, they would help wipe them out.

Could be prisons, but they would again be very hard/expensive prisons to make.

[Swede]

the L, on 28 May 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

Maybe traps for animals?, unless they cultivated mushrooms...Mushrooms usually need moist, watery area, cool and dark. Perfect place for growing.
Some say that Shrooms grow better in dark.

L - You may find the following paper to be of interest. While it treats the topic on a somewhat broader scale, you may find it insightful.

On a note more related to personal research and experience in North America, the "holes" could serve somewhat of a dual purpose. They may have been incorporated to allow the "spirit" of the deceased more ready passage into the afterlife. They may have also been incorporated for the ritual "feeding" of the deceased.

As an aside, the impact of soils acidity on the degradation of osteological remains does have quite some degree of variability. Soils dominated by coniferous species ("pines") tend to produce a more acidic (and detrimental) preservation environment.  Soils type, moisture levels and drainage are also contributory factors.

http://www.circassia...ns_Markovin.pdf

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[Abramelin]

Swede, on 28 May 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

L - You may find the following paper to be of interest. While it treats the topic on a somewhat broader scale, you may find it insightful.

On a note more related to personal research and experience in North America, the "holes" could serve somewhat of a dual purpose. They may have been incorporated to allow the "spirit" of the deceased more ready passage into the afterlife. They may have also been incorporated for the ritual "feeding" of the deceased.

As an aside, the impact of soils acidity on the degradation of osteological remains does have quite some degree of variability. Soils dominated by coniferous species ("pines") tend to produce a more acidic (and detrimental) preservation environment.  Soils type, moisture levels and drainage are also contributory factors.

http://www.circassia...ns_Markovin.pdf

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Yeah, reading - your sentence I underlined, I remember that the Bolivian 'chulpas' near Lake Titicaca (in Silustani) were built for the same purpose: for the dead (their ashes/bones), and the hole on top or at the side was meant for the ''spirit' to escape.



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Edited by Abramelin, 29 May 2012 - 12:30 AM.

[Swede]

Abramelin, on 29 May 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

Yeah, reading - your sentence I underlined, I remember that the Bolivian 'chulpas' near Lake Titicaca (in Silustani) were built for the same purpose: for the dead (their ashes/bones), and the hole on top or at the side was meant for the ''spirit' to escape.



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Abe - Yes, the basic concept appears in quite a number of cultures. Within this concept of "spiritual release" one could also incorporate the ritual breaking and/or puncture of ceramic (and other) grave goods.

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[Time Spy]

the L, on 28 May 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

Greetings Abramelin,

Yes I notice on my link one as part of larger building. I was thinkin maybe they lived there but when night fell they went into holes.
I was thinkin on some succesors of indonesian hobbits or even developed on their own. About skeletons, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Maybe they left. Maybe bones were not preserved. Nature can easily desroy bones. Im aware of scrypt yet I dont know what to tell. Also they say in that site that they found stone balls and carved animals.

btw:great pic.

Very interesting pictures L.  I would be more than willing to bet that WHEN the bones were discovered that they were widely accepted as the remains of children.  Throughout the world many times terrible viruses, illnesses and sicknesses have swept through countless communities, so often taking those who's immune systems were the weakest, the old and the young.  To come across grave yards on sites where such was so isn't an unordinary find for archaeologists over the years.  It would be easy to mistake the remains of 'hobbits' as being the remains of a child, no matter when or where, wouldn't it?

Just a thought to consider.

[pbarosso]

these are animal shelters or burial chambers to be sure. if they were houses there would be alot more evidence of structures for other things considering the skill at which these things were built. So these are not dwellings!!!!! put your fnatasies aside and look at it logically.

[pbarosso]

Time Spy, on 29 May 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

Very interesting pictures L.  I would be more than willing to bet that WHEN the bones were discovered that they were widely accepted as the remains of children.  Throughout the world many times terrible viruses, illnesses and sicknesses have swept through countless communities, so often taking those who's immune systems were the weakest, the old and the young.  To come across grave yards on sites where such was so isn't an unordinary find for archaeologists over the years.  It would be easy to mistake the remains of 'hobbits' as being the remains of a child, no matter when or where, wouldn't it?

Just a thought to consider.

no way would a trained archaeologist/anthropologist mistake childrens' bones for adult hobbit size people. there are many things that are a dead (pun intended) giveaway such as the sutures on the skull bones and teeth just to name the obvious.

[Doctor manhattan]

lol, holes for spirits to exit the tombs, like spirits need doors.

[Abramelin]

serial slasher, on 29 May 2012 - 02:41 AM, said:

lol, holes for spirits to exit the tombs, like spirits need doors.

I don't think 'spirits' need food or 'flowers in a vase' either.

Anyway, there were a couple of ideas for the holes in the side of those Bolivian chullpas, and one was - according to the guide - for the 'spirits to enter and leave.

Another had to do with the sun:

Many of the chullpas at Sillustani show pre-Inca characteristics that were later redressed with Inca stone blocks. Similar chullpas are found throughout the entire south Central Andes with the above ground burial styles going back at least to mature Tiwanaku (ca AD 500-950).[2] The insides of the tombs were built to hold entire groups of people, most likely extended families of the Aymara elite. Corpses were not intentionally mummified, but in the dry environment created by the closed tomb, they survived for centuries. Most mummy bundles indicate burial in a fetal position. Some of the tombs also have various animal shapes carved into the stone. The only openings to the buildings face east, where it was believed the Sun was reborn by Mother Earth each day.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Sillustani

And I remember something like those 'spirits'' wanting/needing to follow 'spirit lines' or 'spirit roads', but I am not sure if that is what they mean here:

http://cml.upenn.edu...ypo/chullpa.htm


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EDIT:

The next is a more mundane explanation:

The burial tower above is about 40' high. Each tower has a small hole facing east, just large enough for a person to crawl through, the entrance closed after burials. These towers were made with chipping tools, it's said.

http://www.andrys.com/peru15.html


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Edited by Abramelin, 29 May 2012 - 06:16 AM.

[DKO]

Interesting article, It does look like some little 'hobbit' home. But like swede and abramelin said I think a burial site or ritual place makes a lot more sense especially since there seems to be a few similar ones around Eurasia.

[DKO]

This page shows a few from around Eurasia, They all look fairly similar and are theorised to all be tombs or for ritual purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmen

[Time Spy]

pbarosso, on 29 May 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

no way would a trained archaeologist/anthropologist mistake childrens' bones for adult hobbit size people. there are many things that are a dead (pun intended) giveaway such as the sutures on the skull bones and teeth just to name the obvious.

I haven't actually seen any adult sized hobbit bones myself, so it would be hard to disagree or agree with the point you are making, which would be something about the skull and teeth, right?  What I assumed about hobbits is that the only real difference from a normal human is they have hairy feet and pointed ears, and that the largest of them barely make four feet in height.  Looking around at human remains among the cultures of the world show countless oddities of comparisons in every part of the skeleton.  I find it hard to believe you could actually pinpoint a hobbit even if or when you actually were to find one.

Did I miss a link to pictures or something?

[DieChecker]

LotR (Tolkien) Hobbits are actually pretty tubby and wouldn't have fit in these holes at all. Plus they like comfort and lots of rooms, so these stone homes would really be frowned upon by them.

[lilthor]

These dolmens do not look like living space for any human, small or otherwise.

I wonder if they have more to do with hunting large game animals like bear.

Those holes look large enough for a bear's head but not his shoulders.  Some rancid meat placed inside the dolmen would certainly cause a passing bear to shove his head inside for a look while he is then attacked from behind.  Someone would even be safe to operate a snare or net from inside the dolmen.

Edited by lilthor, 30 May 2012 - 04:48 AM.

[Abramelin]

DieChecker, on 30 May 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

LotR (Tolkien) Hobbits are actually pretty tubby and wouldn't have fit in these holes at all. Plus they like comfort and lots of rooms, so these stone homes would really be frowned upon by them.

I think we are looking for "Gogs".

In Ireland they are called "Grogochs" : http://www.ireland10...es/the-grogoch/

In Africa they are called "Agogwe": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agogwe

In Indonesia/Flores they are called "Ebu gogo": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebu_Gogo

And I should try to sleep.

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EDIT:

Damn:

"Wherever you see two large leaning stones you know a Grogoch used to live there."

http://www.ireland10...es/the-grogoch/






EDIT:

Hey, they are even on the map!!


 gog-magog-1.jpg   49.83K   15 downloads







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Edited by Abramelin, 30 May 2012 - 06:32 AM.