103 replies to this topic

[and then]

DieChecker, on 04 December 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

Whistleblower law does not apply in this case, because he did not try to hand the documents over to a representative of the US government. He handed them over to a foriegn national.

Manning =/= Whistleblower

Manning == Military Criminal


That would be true if it could be proven that all those documents had been read by Manning and he considered them dangerous. Unfortunately, since there were over 750,000 documents, and each would take a couple minutes to digest as to if it was dangerous or criminal, he would have needed over 400 days of constant reading during his On Duty time to read all of them, and that is plainly impossible for him to have accomplished.

So he gave unread documents to a foriegn national.


Except 99.999% of all soldiers have no issues with UCMJ. I surely never did. The only ones that I did know who had issues were drug users and wife beaters.

Personnally I'd encourage anyone with Authority issues not to go into the military, unless you Want that to be broken out of you. Harsh treatment is what the military offers and what people sign up for when they put their sig on those enlistment papers.

But he gave them up to a foreign national for a good cause!  He felt that it was illegal for the army to put themselves above the law and try to cover up a mistaken killing of "civilians".  So instead he placed himself above the law - perfectly reasonable.  And I'm sure he NEVER expected to be praised by a group he respected on the left.  Now they deify him but it doesn't make the time easier to spend in a cell.  HE WORE THE UNIFORM.  He lied and stole secrets.  Forget him as far as I'm concerned.

[Orcseeker]

and then, on 04 December 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

But he gave them up to a foreign national for a good cause!  He felt that it was illegal for the army to put themselves above the law and try to cover up a mistaken killing of "civilians".  So instead he placed himself above the law - perfectly reasonable.  And I'm sure he NEVER expected to be praised by a group he respected on the left.  Now they deify him but it doesn't make the time easier to spend in a cell.  HE WORE THE UNIFORM.  He lied and stole secrets.  Forget him as far as I'm concerned.

Exposing a government that lies to you is a bad thing these days? War crimes committed by anyone else is an atrocity or even violating human rights. Yet the USA seems completely void of punishment. People still stand by the government loyally. No one bats an eyelid but are up in arms when another country breaches the code.

Have we really regressed to such a point where we don't have the guts to say what our government doing is wrong? Instead of continue such hipocracy?

Not a single crime exposed by manning is justified. The wars aren't even justified yet people still jump on the bandwagon.

Look at what the Iraq/Afghan war has done to our world. Our laws have changed to increase control over the populace. Innocent civilians died. Our freedoms have become more constricted. It contributed to the gfc and is responsible for a lot of the debt in the USA. Increased segregation between different races and religions. I emplore anyone to bring out one positive of this whole thing.

None of this fear mongerig terrorist talk or non existent WMD drivel.

War used to be the forefront in innovation and technological advancements. But we have shown not to need it anymore. There is no place for it in this day and age.

[preacherman76]

Dredimus, on 04 December 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

Congressional Record, March 9, 1998

Not only that, but I highly doubt that this PFC (reduced in rank for other reasons before all of this came out) had "need to know" access to any of the files that he went through, read and released. All in all, Bradley "Breanna" Manning knew exactly what he was doing, he knew that what he was doing was wrong and he wanted a way out of the military. He enlisted (on his own mind you) and decided he didnt like it. He had a long list of behavioral issues and he was not happy being in the service. All the evidence played out in reality suggest that he did what he did in order to hurt the United States Military and Intel community. It Worked.

Wow yea, I guess you are right. He wasnt covered under the law. Funny, the people who actualy have a whistle to blow, are gagged. He knew he might end up in prison for what he did, knew he might go to jail for the rest of his life, so I seriously doubt it was a sceme to get outta the military.

[preacherman76]

What really sad is how people want to hang Manning, but give the government a pass for illegaly starting a war killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Its litteraly amazing

[preacherman76]

and then, on 04 December 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

But he gave them up to a foreign national for a good cause!  He felt that it was illegal for the army to put themselves above the law and try to cover up a mistaken killing of "civilians".  So instead he placed himself above the law - perfectly reasonable.  And I'm sure he NEVER expected to be praised by a group he respected on the left.  Now they deify him but it doesn't make the time easier to spend in a cell.  HE WORE THE UNIFORM.  He lied and stole secrets.  Forget him as far as I'm concerned.

So you must also think that GWB should be on death row for starting a war without congressional aproval and killing all those folks in Afgan, Iraq, and Ltbia right? All based of total admitted lies no less.

[DieChecker]

and then, on 04 December 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

But he gave them up to a foreign national for a good cause!  He felt that it was illegal for the army to put themselves above the law and try to cover up a mistaken killing of "civilians".  So instead he placed himself above the law - perfectly reasonable.  And I'm sure he NEVER expected to be praised by a group he respected on the left.  Now they deify him but it doesn't make the time easier to spend in a cell.  HE WORE THE UNIFORM.  He lied and stole secrets.  Forget him as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe he can be the "Partisan Saint of Enormusely Stupid Actions for the Right Reasons"?? (Partisan saint... get it.... instead of Patron saint...)

[DieChecker]

Orcseeker, on 05 December 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

Exposing a government that lies to you is a bad thing these days?
....
Not a single crime exposed by manning is justified. The wars aren't even justified yet people still jump on the bandwagon.

I certainly would say that a government that lies to us is a bad thing, and that wars are a bad thing. But, I'm not going to let Manning off the hook because he knowingly, or unknowingly, pointed out a couple military crimes. Is the man that murders a murderer any less a murderer? Manning stole from the government and he should pay for that.

I don't know about most people here on UM, but I've been against the last Iraq War since day one. And I've been against the Afghanistan War for a couple years now. I respect and value our soldiers and I thank them for going there when ordered, but I never saw a good reason to go into Iraq and I don't think we should be still in Afghanistan.

Your broad accusation that people are warmongers just because they are Conservative is almost as bad as racism or other discrimination. You are putting statements into other peoples mouths.

[DieChecker]

preacherman76, on 05 December 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

What really sad is how people want to hang Manning, but give the government a pass for illegaly starting a war killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Its litteraly amazing

From what I've read there were about 150,000 CASUALTIES in the Iraq War, which is different from Fatalitys. I'd guess (Based on similar wounded to dead counts from Afghanistan) that about one third of those casualties were killed. So maybe 50,000 dead (many of those being soldiers??).

Afghanistan is a little harder to follow. But the death cound is supposed to be around 10,000 civilians for the last 6 years. With there being at least 20,000 in the first year, so with some guessing that would be about 40,000 to 50,000.

So total that is 100,000 dead. All of which could have been prevented by their respective governments if they had simply yielded to inspections and handing over Al'Quida. Those governments chose to go to war by not cooperating. It was not a quick process, they had time to think. Those people died due to their own stubborn governments. And I feel sorry for them, because those wars should have never happened (particularly the Iraq War).

[ninjadude]

Wearer of Hats, on 04 December 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

But what he did was break the law.

allegedly.

[ninjadude]

DieChecker, on 04 December 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

Just the commonly known evidence is enough to convict.

no it's not. That's not how our justice system works.

[ninjadude]

Dredimus, on 04 December 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

He committed a crime.

allegedly

[ninjadude]

Dredimus, on 04 December 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

  Never mind the fact that he endangered the lives of coalition forces as well as afghani / taliban informants.

unproven and wild speculation.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

ninjadude, on 05 December 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

allegedly.

he admits to taking documents and givig them to Assange.
and that was illegal.

[ninjadude]

Wearer of Hats, on 05 December 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

he admits to taking documents and givig them to Assange.
and that was illegal.

the government tortured him for two years afterward. That is illegal as well. Not to mention the content of the cables.

[Orcseeker]

DieChecker, on 05 December 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

I certainly would say that a government that lies to us is a bad thing, and that wars are a bad thing. But, I'm not going to let Manning off the hook because he knowingly, or unknowingly, pointed out a couple military crimes. Is the man that murders a murderer any less a murderer? Manning stole from the government and he should pay for that.

I don't know about most people here on UM, but I've been against the last Iraq War since day one. And I've been against the Afghanistan War for a couple years now. I respect and value our soldiers and I thank them for going there when ordered, but I never saw a good reason to go into Iraq and I don't think we should be still in Afghanistan.

Your broad accusation that people are warmongers just because they are Conservative is almost as bad as racism or other discrimination. You are putting statements into other peoples mouths.

The thing is, should we be privy to such information on war crimes?

Our law is so flawed and bent towards government and big corporations these days I don't give it an ounce of ligitimacy. Just because a secret print is stamped on some government document does that really mean we don't have the right to know?

War crimes were committed and hidden away. Is it right to do that? Nope. How else would justice be dealt if all bad things that happen are tucked away in a vault somewhere?

I was implying those who do perform that, not everyone or every conservative in general.