724 replies to this topic

[TheMacGuffin]

JimOberg, on 24 July 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

How often did people in Almaty see rockets in the sky?

And is Almaty closer to Kapustin Yar than Israel is?

In my time there, I can't say that I ever saw a missile in the sky, but I didn't sit around watching it all night.  I'd have to say that I never saw or heard of one during my time there.

This is a map of Kazakhstan, which is MUCH bigger than it looks, take my word for it.  Almaty is not too far from the border of China there, while in much of the country there's just not too much of anything--not a house, not a tree, not a gas station with modern facilities.  Volgograd, by the way, is the new name for Stalingrad, which is not too too far from the western Kazakh border.

Kapustin, where he's talking about, is 75 miles east of Volgograd, so it is certainly a very long way from Almaty.  By the way, Astana is the new capital of the country, built basically as a monument to the current president-for-life.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 24 July 2012 - 01:34 AM.

[lost_shaman]

JimOberg, on 24 July 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

Let's work on trying to derive an elevation angle from any of those videos.

This video you posted, from Volograd zooms out a couple of times. I'm looking a still from 2:04. Assuming it's zoomed out to 'normal' a focal lenth equevelent to 35mm then the horizontal FOV is 54 degrees ( remember that this video is inverted so that the horizontal is in the vertical viewing possition), so the rocket trail we are seeing begins about 6.75 degrees above the horizon and ends at about 16.5 degrees.



This video, again assuming the first few seconds when zoomed out is the equevelent to 35mm the vertical FOV is about 37.8 degrees and the missle plume is right around 21 degrees. But where is the horizon? If it is just outside the frame then that puts the plume a few degrees higher, and if its in the frame but not visible to me at least then that puts the plume a few degrees lower than 21.

More later if and when I can work them out...

Edited by lost_shaman, 24 July 2012 - 05:39 AM.

[bee]

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 24 July 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

and a very pleasant thought at that, bee.

just a word of warning, if you don't like 20 pages of insults and gibberish thrown at your way in here,
don't ever ever suggest in the "Israel - UFO or missile" thread that the object was actually over Israel!!

Ha! what ridiculous idjust would consider that??

<smile>

ciao

ISRAEL !!!!!!!!!!....

[DONTEATUS]

bee, on 24 July 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

ISRAEL !!!!!!!!!!....

IS REAL  ? OR ISREAL ? IM CONFUSED !

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

JimOberg, on 23 July 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

I've been in touch with a direct eyewitness in Jordan and am trying to obtain some specific information [which I've also requested from dr. Pat-El by snail mail since all internet communications attempts have had no results]:

From my message:

There's one critical factor that was never described in the news media, about the
sightings in Jordan and neighboring countries.

I hope you can help provide it.

How high above the horizon did you see it? The 'elevation' angle can range from zero -- right on the
horizon -- to 90 degrees -- directly overhead.

If you can imagine, or go outside and look off in the direction you saw it, and then
remember -- how high above the horizon was the light?

Measure it this way. Hold your arm straight out and make a fist. The width of your fist
is about ten degrees. You can measure from horizon to overhead step by step and
you should see that about nine 'fists' covers that arc.

How many 'fists' high was the object? Two? Four? Six? This actually is pretty important
in determining how high the theoretical missile would have to be, to be seen as people
described.

JimOberg, on 23 July 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

I've been in touch with a direct eyewitness in Jordan and am trying to obtain some specific information [which I've also requested from dr. Pat-El by snail mail since all internet communications attempts have had no results]:

From my message:

There's one critical factor that was never described in the news media, about the
sightings in Jordan and neighboring countries.

I hope you can help provide it.

How high above the horizon did you see it? The 'elevation' angle can range from zero -- right on the
horizon -- to 90 degrees -- directly overhead.

If you can imagine, or go outside and look off in the direction you saw it, and then
remember -- how high above the horizon was the light?

Measure it this way. Hold your arm straight out and make a fist. The width of your fist
is about ten degrees. You can measure from horizon to overhead step by step and
you should see that about nine 'fists' covers that arc.

How many 'fists' high was the object? Two? Four? Six? This actually is pretty important
in determining how high the theoretical missile would have to be, to be seen as people
described.

Jim that's all fine BUT you do know that after Pat-El switched to 200-300 kilometers that he had then been TOLD to.
at least that is my theory.

Meaning, he can't possibly speak the truth now without getting into trouble

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

psyche101, on 24 July 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

I am afraid that is a very long way from being proven, and the debate is not running that way. Even your skewed vision should be able to see the angle this thread is on. It is not leaning toward Earl's determination.



Now you and Earl have both asked this, and I would like to ask just who raised the question in the first place? Why is it important that we do not accept the advice of people with a great deal of experience in this field? Why is it so important to some that some people who understand what the reports say throw that away and start wondering again? What do you get out of this? Does it bother you that some people understand completely what is being said and that to some people the descriptions make perfect sense?

who raised the question in the first place??

take a look at the TITLE of the thread ISRAEL - UFO or missile. But it has been clear from day one it is not RUSSIA

this thread got hyinxed. I think if you like you could start a "Russian Missile over Kazakhstan thread" and leave the
people in here to discuss the SPIRAL over Israel.

BTW, something VERY important in your last post to me.
you had a map of Russia region and it was either illustrating the path of the missile which went to Israel,
OR it may have been a path - as opposed as a circle, of people that could see it. but it had no accompanying text.
do you think you can find the text??

It serves a very useful purpose here. that map clearly shows the origin of the missile way over in southeast Russia.
I'll also show you quotes from Jim Oberg of NBC saying the missile clearly took off from Kapustin Yar in the south west of Russia, next to the western border of Kazakhstan. I have another link saying it was reported on Russian Radio, Kapustin Yar.

I have been saying all along the russians are lying. I'd love to see the SOURCE of that link to see which russian started that lie. somebody had to initiate it, my friend and it is NOT a casual mistake. it is a well thought out, concerted effort of an explanation, and full of bull. WHO DID IT?

I also saw "in northern russia" as well as "from a mobile launcher" as to the source of the launch

and you think Pat-El is unreliable?? LOL

well, now of course he has to be unreliable.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

TheMacGuffin, on 24 July 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

I give you credit for putting up one tremendous battle.  Oberg has been posting on this same subject for a month and a half, and I've never seen him hanging around here that long.  This is the only thread he's been positing on, too.  I knew he was wrong about Col. Coleman and Emenegger, but I don't want to get into that again.

SNIP

Who knows what's really going on out there?  Anything and everything, in my experience.

thanks for the post back.

I really expected at one time to come into this thread and talk about SPIRALS, you know, as they pertian to ancient history. many many cave paintings of Spirals.

now isn't that more in line with "Unsolved Mystery"? and bee put out some good info on 33rd parallel, too

instead this whole thread was taken over by the "Russian Missile Conspiracy Theorists"

stay tuned, mon amis

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

and now for your listening pleasure, SPIRALS

http://www.spiralzoo...istoricArt.html

https://www.google.c...iw=1024&bih=579

enjoy

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

http://thelede.blogs...missile-launch/

“Suddenly, coming from the north, we saw a giant cone of light open up in the sky in what look to be the sky above Mt. Hermon and Har Dov,” said one witness in Israel who snapped a photo......

As I explained before, IF Levi has his directions correct, he was on line to looking past the Western border of Kazakhstan, actually closer to Eastern Ukraine border.

what makes it all the worse now, for the Russian Missile Conspiracy Theorists is that we now operate under the knowledge that the Topol M landed in a test base in Sary Shagan KZ, which is very eastern Kazakhstan. On a map, look in SE Kazakhstan and see a large lake, Lake Balkash. Sary Shagan is on the Western border of that lake. assuming Levi saw the missile at it's apex, that is halfyway through the run, and yet Levi is looking at just east of Ukraine.

I am guestimating Levi to be looking about 25 degrees off from where he SHOULD be looking.

put a spy on it and see if you agree. He ain't even CLOSE

[psyche101]

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 24 July 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

who raised the question in the first place??

I am afraid that you did. Back on post #65.

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 24 July 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

take a look at the TITLE of the thread ISRAEL - UFO or missile. But it has been clear from day one it is not RUSSIA

The OP was questioning if the rocket explanation was a rational one to explain what was seen, not if the rocket came from Russia, i.e.

Quote

Unidentified object causes panic, but is there a rational explanation?

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 24 July 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

this thread got hyinxed. I think if you like you could start a "Russian Missile over Kazakhstan thread" and leave the
people in here to discuss the SPIRAL over Israel.

You just seem to be all over the place Earl, I have neatly placed out questions in bullet points for you so that we can all understand where you are coming from, but you get more difficult to follow as the thread moves along. I pointed out that your ceiling height argument has been shown to be incorrect, Jim corrected your math, and the path is well established and I have not seen you counter any debates put forth that proves such, you just keep referring back to some ambiguous statements, which just bring us back to square one. I have asked several times, what is your remaining argument? Who do you keep avoiding that question? I do not find the ambiguous statements convincing, all I can see is that you are reading them wrong and trying to make them literal when they are obviously not. Sorry Earl that is all I can get from your information.
In light of recent comments, I do not care one whit what you believe. But I do not believe what you believe and thought it might be an interesting discussion to see why you believe. All I have done is show you my opinion of why I do not agree with your conclusion. You have made claims that it is important to others that you change your mind. You are dead wrong. It is not important, this is merely sharing information. We are not of the same opinion, so discussion will ensue. That is all. If you keep trying to make out that you are being persecuted to believe, I am sure everyone is just as happy to leave you alone with your thoughts if that is what you prefer, but it is you that seems to really want others to believe that Russians are lying about a missile test, why and to cover what I do not think even you know. You are the one making accusations Earl, not the posters on general. The majority simply feel Jim has put forth a better argument for his explanation, and him being a rocket expert, and in Russian technology as a speciality, that's probably to be expected.

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 24 July 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

BTW, something VERY important in your last post to me.
you had a map of Russia region and it was either illustrating the path of the missile which went to Israel,
OR it may have been a path - as opposed as a circle, of people that could see it. but it had no accompanying text.
do you think you can find the text??

If you keep reading along you will see that I posted that map has nothing to do with the missile. I just googled one that suited the geography. I am not sure where it comes from, it was simply to illustrate direction. It was the best I could find at quick notice to shown you that path of the witness statements. You asked me to look at a map, so I posted one. As such, there is no text. Check the original link and work the URL back if you like. That should tell you.

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 24 July 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

It serves a very useful purpose here. that map clearly shows the origin of the missile way over in southeast Russia.
I'll also show you quotes from Jim Oberg of NBC saying the missile clearly took off from Kapustin Yar in the south west of Russia, next to the western border of Kazakhstan. I have another link saying it was reported on Russian Radio, Kapustin Yar.

Quote

“The fact that it was seen in our area does not mean that the missile path was over the Middle East,” Uzi Rubin, an architect of Israel’s missile defense program, told The Jerusalem Post on Friday. “It was likely fired from some sort of test launch center in southern Russia,” he said.

LINK

People are guessing at the launch location, and I would be surprised if Russia was open to sharing that precisely. After all, this was a military test. Game of Battleship?

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 24 July 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

I have been saying all along the russians are lying. I'd love to see the SOURCE of that link to see which russian started that lie. somebody had to initiate it, my friend and it is NOT a casual mistake. it is a well thought out, concerted effort of an explanation, and full of bull. WHO DID IT?

I also saw "in northern russia" as well as "from a mobile launcher" as to the source of the launch

I would very much like to see it too, because as far as I can tell your sole bugbear on this is that you has convinced is that you are certain the Russians are lying. To what end is what you have yet to establish. What do you think the Russians are hiding, and why do you think so many sources agree with this explanation?

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 24 July 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

and you think Pat-El is unreliable?? LOL

Well yes. If I was to keep changing my estimate as often as he does I would not be in a job. As I have suggested many time, look up Mike Salway, now that man is an Astronomer. I would love to hear Mikes opinion, but I do not know if he is even aware of the situation. He spends months at a time in Antarctica.

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 24 July 2012 - 11:47 PM, said:

well, now of course he has to be unreliable.

I have to call shenanigans on that claim. I see absolutely no connection between Yigal and Russia, all I see is Yigal constantly revising his guesstimates. Now that the final figures are getting closer to Jim, and further from your direction, it seems that you are now saying he was pressured, and making that claim without proof. I have to call that a cop out Earl. You need to provide some proof if you are going to make that claim.

[Sakari]

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 24 July 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

thanks for the post back.

I really expected at one time to come into this thread and talk about SPIRALS, you know, as they pertian to ancient history. many many cave paintings of Spirals.

now isn't that more in line with "Unsolved Mystery"? and bee put out some good info on 33rd parallel, too

instead this whole thread was taken over by the "Russian Missile Conspiracy Theorists"

stay tuned, mon amis

That is what happened....

I think what you want in this thread is " believe  what Earl believes the spirals to be, and no other feedback accepted "........


As I said before, I mainly came in just reading, not sitting on the fence, but just reading all sides.If I were on the fence when reading this, I would definitley have jumped over it long ago to the missile explanation.The evidence is more than over whelming, and dead on.

Sorry Earl, no offense at all, but I have seen nothing that would make me even consider other wise.

Edited by Sakari, 25 July 2012 - 01:21 AM.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

lost_shaman, on 24 July 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

This video you posted, from Volograd zooms out a couple of times. I'm looking a still from 2:04. Assuming it's zoomed out to 'normal' a focal lenth equevelent to 35mm then the horizontal FOV is 54 degrees ( remember that this video is inverted so that the horizontal is in the vertical viewing possition), so the rocket trail we are seeing begins about 6.75 degrees above the horizon and ends at about 16.5 degrees.



This video, again assuming the first few seconds when zoomed out is the equevelent to 35mm the vertical FOV is about 37.8 degrees and the missle plume is right around 21 degrees. But where is the horizon? If it is just outside the frame then that puts the plume a few degrees higher, and if its in the frame but not visible to me at least then that puts the plume a few degrees lower than 21.

More later if and when I can work them out...

Shaman, if you do not see the spiral, how do you know it's the same "object"?

If it comes from Russia, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

psyche101, on 25 July 2012 - 01:15 AM, said:

You just seem to be all over the place Earl,

I understand. It is so hard to follow. you have things in here that are responses to my stuff. I don't know what  it is. it is HARD.

Quote

I have neatly placed out questions in bullet points for you so that we can all understand where you are coming from, but you get more difficult to follow as the thread moves along.

Something should be done - I agree. How about ONE issue at a time? this is all confusing for sure.

Quote

I pointed out that your ceiling height argument has been shown to be incorrect, Jim corrected your math, and the path is well established and I have not seen you counter any debates put forth that proves such, you just keep referring back to some ambiguous statements, which just bring us back to square one.

I did not see your stuff or Jim's - here's why.
I TRIED like heck to get to start at page 30 and get to 40 and respond.
I finished ONE page.. .ONE stupid page, and by the time I was done JimOmberg had twice as stuff posted back to me than I had put out there. Ok? NO WAY will he let me catch up, IMPOSSIBLE. It's his "style",let's call it. So anyway, I had to skip a lot of posts, I don't get paid to be here, I don't have a staff typing stuff up for me.

Quote

I have asked several times, what is your remaining argument? Who do you keep avoiding that question?

Not sure what this refers back to but I actually have many arguments. the eyewitness testimony, how everyone in and around Israel panicked (Yes, Lebanon too, I found out) and yet the countries JUST TO THE SOUTH of Kazakhstan know nothing of this image in the sky, and the image should have been WAAAAAAY bigger in their sky. that speaks volumes, right there.

Quote

In light of recent comments, I do not care one whit what you believe. But I do not believe what you believe and thought it might be an interesting discussion to see why you believe.

fine. and of course, you know you can never move me from my beliefs, too. but I will discuss it, too

Quote

All I have done is show you my opinion of why I do not agree with your conclusion. You have made claims that it is important to others that you change your mind. You are dead wrong.

did I?? I don't preach. you can believe in Santa Claus if you wish.

Quote

It is not important, this is merely sharing information. We are not of the same opinion, so discussion will ensue. That is all. If you keep trying to make out that you are being persecuted to believe, I am sure everyone is just as happy to leave you alone with your thoughts if that is what you prefer,

you would, yes, others would NOT leave this board "unattended".
ALL of you (except me) KNOWS THE TRUTH. yet here you all are arguing. Ok? arguing with ONE idiot, right?
does that makes sense to you?
here's what will happen, you all leave, I stay. I post stuff about spirals. ppl post back
we discuss it being a UFO. That AIN'T ever going to happen. OK? trust me. I hinted that in my post to MacGuv the other day.
he knows what I was talking about, too.

Quote

but it is you that seems to really want others to believe that Russians are lying about a missile test, why and to cover what I do not think even you know. You are the one making accusations Earl, not the posters on general. The majority simply feel Jim has put forth a better argument for his explanation, and him being a rocket expert, and in Russian technology as a speciality, that's probably to be expected.

Jim has put forth a great argument about missiles. the problem is, it is NOT a missile.

A missile going over 10,000 mph all of a sudden, stops and starts spinning like a pin wheel. uh huh

Quote

If you keep reading along you will see that I posted that map has nothing to do with the missile. I just googled one that suited the geography. I am not sure where it comes from, it was simply to illustrate direction. It was the best I could find at quick notice to shown you that path of the witness statements. You asked me to look at a map, so I posted one. As such, there is no text. Check the original link and work the URL back if you like. That should tell you.

thanks, Ok, I know what happened there




LINK

Quote

People are guessing at the launch location, and I would be surprised if Russia was open to sharing that precisely. After all, this was a military test. Game of Battleship?

then all bets are off, right? I said the same thing about the height the missile can go. they won't publish that - or they will lie.
some ppl know the truth, though. more on that later because that can be "obtained" for lack of a better word

Quote

I would very much like to see it too, because as far as I can tell your sole bugbear on this is that you has convinced is that you are certain the Russians are lying. To what end is what you have yet to establish. What do you think the Russians are hiding, and why do you think so many sources agree with this explanation?

It ain't just the russians, that s only the tip of the iceberg. all nations that agree to cover up UFO incidents will cooperate and the only two I know that do not cover them up are Iran and Netherlands. and as the government goes, so goes 90% of the populace, at least. and they know it.

cripes, look at the pyramid shaped UFO that hung around over Moscow a couple years back. I nver saw what the Russians said to cover that up but I guarantee you everyone fell for it LOL - "Don't believe your lying eyes!!"

Quote

I have to call shenanigans on that claim. I see absolutely no connection between Yigal and Russia, all I see is Yigal constantly revising his guesstimates.

follow it out:
Night of June 6: Pat-El - " It was some 10's of kilometers high" - we agree that is somewhere between 10 and 99 kilometers? ya.
Day of June 7: Pat-El - "It was 80 kilometers high" - we agree that is between 10 and 99, ya? it is a refined estimate it is completely congruous with the original.

June 8: Pat-EL "It was 200 to 300 kilometres high" -  LOL, man did that estimate just get refined. that is virtually impossible behavior for a brilliant man working to get info to the IDF perhaps. very important stuff, and he was off THAT much?
I do not swallow it. sorry

Quote

Now that the final figures are getting closer to Jim, and further from your direction, it seems that you are now saying he was pressured, and making that claim without proof. I have to call that a cop out Earl. You need to provide some proof if you are going to make that claim.

my friend I said he was pressured as it was all consistent all ALONG that he has to go along with what - as I said, "Yitzak told him" from DAY ONE I said that. please don't paint me to be a wishy washy mind changer.

as we speak, there are many people in Israel and Lebanon and Syria that the missile story is all BULLSHIP.

I'll get to one. someday. promise.

ciao

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Sakari, on 25 July 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

That is what happened....

I think what you want in this thread is " believe  what Earl believes the spirals to be, and no other feedback accepted "........

I am not that vain, mon amis. believe as you wish. I just get a little snippy when ppl try shoving reams of bullship down my throat, especially when said person/ppl know it's bull

Quote

As I said before, I mainly came in just reading, not sitting on the fence, but just reading all sides.If I were on the fence when reading this, I would definitley have jumped over it long ago to the missile explanation.The evidence is more than over whelming, and dead on.

So you rely on popular opinion. fine

Quote

Sorry Earl, no offense at all, but I have seen nothing that would make me even consider other wise.

Sakari, trust me, if you are sincere i would never be insulted by you not believing me.
I know what I say has FAR FAR reaching implications that are mind boggling. you see, it is not just the "Russians lying"  - that is easy to fix, Pat-El could do it all by himself. No, the hard part is accepting that all nations in the region AND BEYOND had to agree to "cover it up". One dissenter, and it just does not happen. and you may already know, almost ALL nations hide UFO incidents.
Why,,, I don't know but they do.

a Pyramid-shaped UFO over Moscow ROFLMAO!!!  I wonder if the called it a Topol-Q LOL

I do know of a way for absolute SURE to prove that missile's existence or NOT. positively bulletproof

one slight problem... GETTING to him.

we'll see. time keeps going.

[lost_shaman]

Earl.Of.Trumps, on 25 July 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

Shaman, if you do not see the spiral, how do you know it's the same "object"?

If it comes from Russia, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole

Earl,

The "spiral" starts at 32 seconds into the video.